Vote your conscience, not your anger

I can't vote for a party who rigs a primary. #DemExit member.

Third party supporting Johnson.

a reply to: Throes

I'd love to see a third party win. But, if the 2 party system stopped winning and third party became winners, it would be like what happened with independent films and Sundance... the money will just flow in that new direction and people who currently identify as D or R, would rebrand themselves Independent. The only way to avoid that is to get money out of politics.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

Which is why what we really need is party dedicated specifically to doing just that. A party for which that is the focus on all fronts.

Then what we need to do is vote them into every position we can. Fill the government with them. With such a clear goal and overwhelming majority we'd clear up Washington so rapidly heads would spin.

Sadly it's just a pipe dream.

originally posted by: spiritualzombie
The only way to avoid that is to get money out of politics.

whaaa? That commie talk. We get the best Government money can buy and don't you forget it.

This is America....Capitalist to the core and Profit is our GOD.

Guess who picks up the tab?

The whole election is rigged. We repeat the same mistake of choosing one out of the two parties when we can vote any party when independent votes come up.

Unfortunately we lost some great candidates. And fixated ourselves into a celebrity and a corrupt bought nominated leader.

a reply to: Puppylove

It's not a pipe dream. I believe the momentum is already moving in that direction. Bernie was a strong advocate for getting money out of politics, and Hillary has picked that up from Bernie. Trump has spoken against Super PACs, but I haven't heard him say we need to get money out of politics. It sounds to me like he's in favor of billionaires buying their own elections. I have heard Hillary say it though, and the people cheer for it, and so again my vote goes to her for continuing that message.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

Yeah but Hillary clearly doesn't mean it. She's the most bought and paid for presidential hopeful poster child of all time.

I have no problem with immigration reform as long as it`s done properly,legally and in accordance with the constitution.
I do have a problem with presidents who try to play god and issue executive orders that tell people to not enforce the legally enacted existing immigration laws.

a reply to: Puppylove

That may be, but I believe like any industry, people get into it because they want to make a change and help people. People like you with high ideals. And then they get in and see money is how you win. I think there are many in government who play the money game who would LOVE for money to not be allowed, so they could be free from it.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

I've known people like that, they either stop playing the game, or become corrupted by it.

I was willing to give Bernie that benefit of the doubt you're talking about. I certainly can't do that for the person who it's been shown has rigged the primaries in her favor against the very person who I was going to give the benefit of the doubt to.

Note: One of my favorite political teachers of all time was such a person. He left politics because it was changing him. They corrupt you bit by bit. You keep having to sacrifice ideals to get headway. Make moral compromises. End up associating with people and put into compromising positions. Eventually you'll find, in your attempts to be in a position to do something, you've now done so many things blackmail is a kind way to say what those in power have over you. It's part of how you get in. The only way you do, is if, there's enough on you to destroy you. Is why everyone ends up having so much dirt on them.

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: spiritualzombie

Soon the "but...Hillary" crowd will arrive to derail your thread.

I have never voted FOR anyone. I always vote AGAINST the fascist.

I just wanna come out clean!

To be fair, the OP's lead-in was basically:

Trump sucks because A, B, C and D.

Hillary is decent because A, B, C and D.

Are people not allowed to counter the second half of the post?

I also think that it's important to point out that no election is just about one person (because there will never be a single "perfect" candidate). We always have to compare and contrast two individuals and see which will be more likely to do more good (or cause less harm).


For myself, I openly admit I'm angry about the state of affairs and some of the things I see going on with our elected (and appointed) officials (within BOTH parties). I'm angry that when the manufacturing jobs started to go overseas we were all told, "Don't worry, these jobs will be replaced with more skilled jobs"..... then as soon as I.T. became a thing those jobs started going overseas or even worse, the politicians allow for the blatant abuses of the H1B (and other) Visa programs. I'm angry that for all the money poured into it, our public schools suck relative to the rest of the developed world. So yes, I'm angry about these and many other issues.

That being said, being angry and thinking clearly are not mutually exclusive. Heck, I work in Construction Management and sometimes my contractors do things that make me furious.... but I don't make drastic, off the cuff decisions.

As it stands now, it looks like I will be voting for Trump and my conscious will be clear.

He does many things I don't agree with. He picks battles when I think he should hit the "ignore" button (like with this Khan fellow and prior to that with the McCain comments). He speaks a little too quickly (like when he originally said "ban all Muslims until we figure this thing out" and even though I kinda/sorta knew that he meant and he later proved me right by clarifying that he intended to ban unvettable people from war torn and hostile to Western nations... until we can figure this out). I don't get bogged down with the racist/misogynist claims because I don't believe there is any "there" there.

Will he build that wall? Maybe. Will he bolster and improve the morale of those protecting our borders? I believe strongly that he will. To me, the immigration issue is one of the more important ones. It's not about race. It's about security. It's about the economy. It's about the schools. It's about the finances. It's also about the vaccinations and diseases. (The past few years, every September all these "mystery" diseases affect kids in the public schools where the allegedly "unaccompanied minors" were sent...... "mystery diseases" that are pandemic in many of the places where the "unaccompanied minors" come from). I'll stop now to prevent thread drift.

Will he bring ALL the jobs back? Probably not. Well he start a Trade War? Nope. Will he cut better deals for the United States? I believe strongly that he will. I think this is where the business-man is important to me. While spending essentially her entire career in politics, commenting on and perhaps helping to craft legislation that drastically affects business, she has never really worked "in the real world," as the saying goes. People have made all sorts of accusations about how Trump screws people over and I had previously provided a wall of text in another thread disputing that. People have made comments about some of his ventures that have not worked out. To that, I ask "So what?!?!?!" When you move forward on one large project after another OF COURSE some of them aren't going to work out. I'll stop now to prevent thread drift.

As far as Hillary is concerned, I hear people talk about her experience and the best I can do in support of her is acknowledge that she held positions as Senator and Secretary of State. To me it seems as though she was a do-nothing Senator in NY (although to be fair, I actually think a do-nothing Senator is a helluva lot better than the Chuck Schumers of the world). The more important role, in my opinion, was her time as Secretary of State. This is really the key to everything regarding how she would handle world affairs. She was, in my opinion, a complete disaster. She rails against Russia now (but seems to forget her Russian "Reset Button" display). How does she get a pass on this? She played a huge part in the whole Arab Spring concept.... how did that work out? Again I ask, how does she get a pass on this?

Also, and this is sort of a side-note but considering we hear so much about Trump's demeanor it forces me to look at Hillary's. After killing Gadhafi (which may or may not have been a good move considering where we are today), she had her, "We came, we saw, he died.... cackle cackle cackle" moment. THAT is presidential? Even if Gadhafi was a bad guy that deserved to die, shouldn't that be handled in a sober and somber tone? I understand sometimes people have to be killed but it shouldn't be something to laugh and joke about. Talk about a "potential recruiting tool."

Then there is also the Clinton Foundation money stuff. The donations from all sorts of sketchy characters and nations. All the stuff that took place DURING her tenure as Secretary of State. She rails against Wall Street but took in TONS of money for "speeches." Sorry, but I'm not sure she is all that interesting to get paid those sums of money from Wall Street. I think of these paychecks as more of a down payment for future favors, should she be elected.

Trump lies I'm sure. He definitely has changed some of his views over the past several years. However, Hillary is an absolute, total, bold faced lie right to your face type of liar. I expect a bit of lying from politicians but oh my Lord she is so over the top.

To me this (and all) elections are only partially about me. My wife and I have our careers and although anything can happen, our professional outlook seems pretty good all the way through retirement (decades away). I'm hoping that we live another forty or fifty (or more) years but like I said, for the most part we are going to be okay. What I worry about is our four year old son and kids of that age. What is going to be left for them by way of opportunities when they come of age? Automation. Lopsided "free" trade deals. A lack of effort to secure our borders and to extinguish J.V. terrorist groups before they grow and grow. My choice isn't about me its about the next generation.

I know we are moving slowly towards the NWO cliff (for lack of a better phrase) but my choice is who will slow that down a bit and create an environment that will provide opportunities for the short-and-mid-term future.

Although I wish the choices were better, my conscious will be crystal clear.

originally posted by: spiritualzombie

originally posted by: Nucleardoom
a reply to: spiritualzombie

I'll be voting for Hillary because immigration reform and a path to citizenship is more humane than mass deportation and more in character with the ideals of America, than building walls. I'll vote Hillary because she believes in reaching out to our Muslim friends and allies rather than banning them.

This will be the downfall of the U.S. It will be what Germany, France and Sweden have become.
Muslim terrorist playgrounds.

Don't give in to fear and don't reject your Muslim friends.

Using actual current events that are happening in all countries that openly accepted Muslim refugees in order to form an opinion on whether or not doing the same thing in our country is a good idea is NOT "giv(ing) into fear." In fact, it's called being intelligent.

Also, which Muslim friends would we be rejecting? I know all of my friends, and I'm quite certain that the ones that are Muslim are already here and known to me. Complete strangers are not my friends, I don't care what religion they are.

Look, I'm not voting for either of the mainstream candidates (just like I didn't last election cycle), but if you're going to try and convince us that your stance is logical, that really is not the way to do it.

a reply to: Tardacus

I agree with your views on immigration reform and making sure its in accordance with the constitution. I also believe there could be cases for legalizing illegals. We allow prisoners to go free for good behavior... I think something similar for a path to citizenship could be tolerable for illegal families who live here, have a clean record, and have been productive members of society. I'm open to the idea.

nm

a reply to: spiritualzombie

yep.and just keep things balanced for every illegal that is given amnesty we could deport 1 welfare recipient.That`s a win win we get rid of 1 deadbeat and gain 1 hard working tax payer.

By the thread title, I was hoping to find some balanced piece; logic stuff.

To stay on topic, I was raised by a stepdad who was a BONAFIDE Pathological Liar. He believed his own lies.

Since then, my last long term relationship was with a Narcissist, or she became one after being on Facebook for a year.

I can say about my stepdad, that i dont hate him for being a pathological liar, in hindsight, because its what drove me to being as hardcore an anti-deception creature as can be imagined. This attitude holds true anyways given that it's because of him that "IIB" I became (as that's the trade of career politicians to LIE endlessly). On a personal note however, I dont recommend being so staunchly anti-deception as I am: it's hell on forming lasting relationships (since most people will lie at the drop of a dime, mainly to not hurt your feelings which in practice in my experience usually proves more detrimental [with strangers especially]). Luckily I dont "need" 400 Facebook (FAKE) "Friends" to feel goods about myself, but I also tend in real life to have only people that are like family, not too many 'buddies'.

So then we have y own personal case study with a Narcissist. It played out mostly as a tale of anger. Nothing life changing; mostly disappointing in hindsight. She went on to fully embrace it, which would almost be progress opposed to those who ignore any and all understanding of it. But this new all-in Narcissism approach (which she definitely picked up from her Facebook "Friends"), I went on to compare it to Lavayan Satananism.

Comparing both extremes, which I know them both as deeply and personally as anyone ever could: I pick pathological liars as the worst choice. Hands down.

ALSO: Hillary herself IS a Narcissist too! Too big an ego often brings upon absurd notions of entitlement (even in those against Entitlements). Who in all the world of career politicians has BIGGER EGO than Hillary???????

Now before you go calling Trump a pathological liar, do note that he apparently mostly never followed a teleprompter, nor has had DECADES of experience in LYING to the public in order to have a job (as would be the case with Hillary, Obama, the Bush's, and most the rest of them in politics that never go away).

The thing about EGO'S is, some people actually live up to them. Where its the ones who have them but dont live up to them (over-inflated ego's) that are the most asinine and dangerous. Who deserves their ego (Trump for becoming a billionaire outside of politics, or Hillary who has managed to never GO AWAY thanks to her cunning as a LIAR.

a reply to: eluryh22

Just want to acknowledge your well-thought post. Thank you for the contribution to the thread. My hope was to not ignite a flame war but to have an open discussion about our vote from a rational place. I particular appreciate what you said about being angry and thinking clearly not being mutually exclusive.

Third party is a wasted vote.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

I think you're a bit too generous... but... I take what I can get so thanks.

Clearly we are viewing this election in different ways but there is no reason we can't be civil about it. For better or worse, we're all in this thing together.

a reply to: spiritualzombie

I like Trump's style and his message, so my voting for him leaves my conscience clean and shiny, thank you very much.