Chemtrails or clouds? You decide

An often heard claim in the chemtrail community is that contrails can't persist, and therefore anything that does persist has to be a chemtrail. This is THE main pillar on which the whole chemtrail 'theory' rests.

Let's find a few examples of said claim:

www.relfe.com...

Definition of a chemtrail: The term "chemtrail" is a relatively new word, which appeared in the last ten years or more with the appearance of chemtrails. A chemtrail is not normal.

A chemtrail is very different from a contrail. At first a chemtrail might look a bit like a contrail. However, instead of disappearing like a contrail does, a chemtrail just keeps spreading out and forming a hazy cloud bank. These trails traverse the whole sky and stay for up to around five or even eight hours. They have been known to turn what was originally a clear blue sky into a grey haze.

This text was copied literally in this video, complete with footage of jets creating contrails and spooky music:




www.geoengineeringwatch.org...

My neighbor looked up, noticing the lines of clouds in the sky. There were five and another being added as we watched. “Chem-trails.” I said with disgust, shaking my head.

by Patti Jo Roth-Edwards August 7, 2013

“Con-trails,” he corrected me, and launched into a tirade about conspiracy theorist fools and there are no chem-trails. “It’s just jet exhaust!”

I never took my eyes off the sky. “Really? Just jet exhaust?”

He looked up again, less certain. “Well, Yeah.” I left him at the fence, went inside and did an internet search for a definition of con-trails.
“Chem” is short for chemicals that are aerosolized and typically sprayed out of six nozzles located on the wings of the jets. The tiny particles then spread out across the sky leaving a milky white sort of haze that obscures the sun.

“Con” is short for condensation which is mostly made up of water vapor and dissipates within minutes after the jet passes.

And another one: www.newsfocus.org...

The difference between jet contrails and chemtrails is very distinctive. Jet contrails are condensed water molecules that form a vapor that dissipates quickly as the trail fans out in the high altitude wind of our atmosphere. Chemtrails on the other hand do not break down and dissipate as quickly. They linger for quite some time, slowly fanning out across the sky in the parallel and geometric patterns in which they were sprayed.

www.rense.com...

Chemtrails (CTs) look like contrails initially, but are much thicker, extend across the sky and are often laid down in varying patterns of Xs, tick-tack-toe grids, cross-hatched and parallel lines. Instead of quickly dissipating, chemtrails expand and drip feathers and mare s tails. In 30 minutes or less, they open into wispy formations which join together, forming a thin white veil or a "fake cirrus-type cloud" that persists for hours.

And even G. Edward Griffin chimes in:
educate-yourself.org...

I cannot claim that any of the Internet sources of information on this topic are totally reliable. However, based on my own observations of these sky trails, it is my opinion that they are not ice crystals from contrails. Contrails can be seen almost every day, and they are characterized by short, narrow plumes that rapidly dissipate about a half-mile behind the planes. I have captured numerous video shots of these little plumes as they follow their planes across the sky. Chemtrails, however, are very different. They billow from horizon to horizon and gradually feather out to fill the entire sky with haze that lingers all day and well into the night where they can be seen still filtering light from the moon. It is amazing to me how so many people fail to discern the obvious difference between these two types of formations.

You can probably find many more examples like these if you google around a bit. From the examples cited here, we can deduce the following notions doing the rounds in chemtrail circles:

1: The consensus is that contrails last for only a short time
2: Anything that persists can't be a contrail, because contrails always dissipate quickly
3: There does seem to be an awareness that contrails consist of something to do with ice crystals.

However I'm missing something in these explanations. Can you guess what it is?

That's right: I've never found an explanation of WHY contrails aren't supposed to persist. Or why contrails are always supposed to be dissipating quickly. It's always stated as if it's a fact, but it's never explained or backed up with science!

Maybe that's because science doesn't agree with this notion.

Let's have a look at what the scientific idea of a contrail is:

Contrails (/ˈkɒntreɪlz/; short for "condensation trails") or vapor trails are line-shaped clouds sometimes produced by aircraft engine exhaust, typically at aircraft cruise altitudes several miles above the Earth's surface. Contrails are composed primarily of water, in the form of ice crystals. The combination of water vapor in aircraft engine exhaust and the low ambient temperatures that often exists at these high altitudes allows the formation of the trails. Impurities in the jet exhaust from the fuel, including sulfur compounds (0.05% by weight in jet fuel) provide some of the particles that can serve as sites for water droplet growth in the exhaust and, if water droplets form, they might freeze to form ice particles that compose a contrail.[1] Their formation can also be triggered by changes in air pressure in wingtip vortices or in the air over the entire wing surface.[2]

Depending on the temperature and humidity at the altitude the contrails form, they may be visible for only a few seconds or minutes, or may persist for hours and spread to be several miles wide, eventually resembling natural cirrus or altocumulus clouds.[1] Persistent contrails are of particular interest to scientists because they increase the cloudiness of the atmosphere.[1] The resulting cloud forms may resemble cirrus, cirrocumulus, or cirrostratus, and are sometimes called cirrus aviaticus. Persistent spreading contrails are thought by some, without overwhelming scientific proof, to have a significant effect on global climate.[3][4] Persistent contrails are sometimes called chemtrails in reference to the conspiracy theory regarding the undisclosed spraying of chemical or biological agents by various high-flying aircraft.

So obviously there's a discrepancy between the scientific notion of what a contrail is, and the chemtrail version.

That's kindof weird to me, especially because I've never seen an attempt to debunk the scientific version. I mean if there's something wrong with the notion of a persistent contrail, then at least there'd have to be an explanation.

Why can't contrails persist?

In what way do they differ from any other cirrus cloud found at the same altitude?

So please help me out here. What's going on? Why is this 'fact' about contrails versus chemtrails repeated on all these sites without any further explanation? Is there an explanation? If so, I'd be happy to find out what it is

originally posted by: payt69
So please help me out here. What's going on? Why is this 'fact' about contrails versus chemtrails repeated on all these sites without any further explanation? Is there an explanation? If so, I'd be happy to find out what it is

No reason a contrail cannot persist. It is based on weather how long it last or dissipates. The answer to your question is simply people trying to separate the ignorant from their money so they can retire early.

originally posted by: Orionx2

originally posted by: payt69
So please help me out here. What's going on? Why is this 'fact' about contrails versus chemtrails repeated on all these sites without any further explanation? Is there an explanation? If so, I'd be happy to find out what it is

No reason a contrail cannot persist. It is based on weather how long it last or dissipates. The answer to your question is simply people trying to separate the ignorant from their money so they can retire early.

Well that may be true for some of the chemtrail gurus. However, some seem to be true believers. I'm wondering why they haven't asked the questions I'm asking. Is it just a matter of confirmation bias, or is it something else?

a reply to: payt69

Who knows? But i hate them, they are polluting the air and they are taking the sun away.
Have a hazy day everyone.

originally posted by: payt69

originally posted by: Orionx2

originally posted by: payt69
So please help me out here. What's going on? Why is this 'fact' about contrails versus chemtrails repeated on all these sites without any further explanation? Is there an explanation? If so, I'd be happy to find out what it is

No reason a contrail cannot persist. It is based on weather how long it last or dissipates. The answer to your question is simply people trying to separate the ignorant from their money so they can retire early.

Well that may be true for some of the chemtrail gurus. However, some seem to be true believers. I'm wondering why they haven't asked the questions I'm asking. Is it just a matter of confirmation bias, or is it something else?

The scammers will make up false science to back their claim and the ignorant will blindly believe it and will argue it till death. What science they try to perform will already be biased as they are not looking to discredit their belief but to find any tiny thing to credit it. It is like statistics, it can tell a dozen different stories depending on the bias slant.

Generally these scammers target younger people and get to them early to make them think a certain way. Those people will continue that thinking because that's what they first learned. Changing peoples mind is a lot harder than teaching them something new they did not know.

Government and product marketing work exactly the same way. Start them young and they will get stuck in their ways. Most people do not have a science background and just believe anything they see from someone that appears to be in a more knowledgeable position.

Pretty sure you already know this though. Seems this thread is just to highlight it.

Chemtrails is an excellent example of a conspiracy with no basis in fact. No one has EVER been able to isolate the so-called chemicals being used or what effect they are supposed to promote. No one has EVER been able to show the vast support infrastructure that would have to be in place for such an operation to take place. The whole thing from beginning to end is complete nonsense. It is an example of the "open mind" where the brain really has fallen out.

a reply to: payt69

I've said time and time again if chemtrails were real the plane that disperses said chems would have to fly as low as a crop duster to make it plausible let alone believable.

Then you have to accommodate for barometric pressure, wind currents, humidity...Chemtrails would be as effective as dropping a bucket of water into lake Michigan-and this is coming from someone who was surpassed by a rhesus monkey in meteorology 101.

a reply to: [post=21074435]payt69[/pos

a reply to: payt69

An often heard claim in the chemtrail community is that contrails can't persist, and therefore anything that does persist has to be a chemtrail. This is THE main pillar on which the whole chemtrail 'theory' rests.

You mean theres no chemical pollutants in jet exhaust? Whew, glad thats settled.

originally posted by: payt69
An often heard claim in the chemtrail community is that contrails can't persist, and therefore anything that does persist has to be a chemtrail. This is THE main pillar on which the whole chemtrail 'theory' rests.

And the claim from the meteorological community is that not only can contrails persist (sometimes - but not always, it depends on atmospheric conditions - for hours, spreading out to cover the sky) but they have been studied (doing so) for many many decades. And there are dozens of scientific papers proving this. This is the main pillar on which the whole chemtrail hoax fails.

Meanwhile, if anything IS being sprayed in the atmosphere we wouldnt see it. Unless it formed crystals of deadly dihydrogen monoxide. And thats the killer .....

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: payt69

An often heard claim in the chemtrail community is that contrails can't persist, and therefore anything that does persist has to be a chemtrail. This is THE main pillar on which the whole chemtrail 'theory' rests.

You mean theres no chemical pollutants in jet exhaust? Whew, glad thats settled.

That really wasn't the point of his post. The point was that there is no difference between a so-called "chemtrail" and a normal contrail. The contrail you see is largely water vapor caused by condensation coming from a hot exhaust hitting a cold atmosphere. They don't come "from" the plane at all. You're not seeing the exhaust; you're seeing the result of the exhaust.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: payt69

An often heard claim in the chemtrail community is that contrails can't persist, and therefore anything that does persist has to be a chemtrail. This is THE main pillar on which the whole chemtrail 'theory' rests.

You mean theres no chemical pollutants in jet exhaust? Whew, glad thats settled.

Where did I say that?

I'm discussing hte 'chemtrail theory' as defined in all the quotes I included from chemtrail websites. If you want to discuss pollution or contrails, go and create your own thread

a reply to: schuyler

The point was that there is no difference between a so-called "chemtrail" and a normal contrail.

Yes thats the point isn't it. 'Only' contrails and 'completely' normal.

Not. Its air and light pollution.

originally posted by: payt69

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: payt69

An often heard claim in the chemtrail community is that contrails can't persist, and therefore anything that does persist has to be a chemtrail. This is THE main pillar on which the whole chemtrail 'theory' rests.

You mean theres no chemical pollutants in jet exhaust? Whew, glad thats settled.

Where did I say that?

I'm discussing hte 'chemtrail theory' as defined in all the quotes I included from chemtrail websites. If you want to discuss pollution or contrails, go and create your own thread

You may have started the thread but it belongs to everyone. There are more than two sides to any debate.

Those two being, some mystery secret spraying and, only harmless water.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: payt69

An often heard claim in the chemtrail community is that contrails can't persist, and therefore anything that does persist has to be a chemtrail. This is THE main pillar on which the whole chemtrail 'theory' rests.

You mean theres no chemical pollutants in jet exhaust? Whew, glad thats settled.

That is disingenuous. Exhaust pollution is a different subject. It is under some scrutiny though.

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration on Monday announced its plan to start regulating planet-warming pollution from airplanes, setting off a battle between environmentalists and the airline industry.

Next Item on Obama’s Climate Agenda: Airplane Pollution
I bet Military and Air Force One are excluded however. lol

originally posted by: AndyMayhew

originally posted by: payt69
An often heard claim in the chemtrail community is that contrails can't persist, and therefore anything that does persist has to be a chemtrail. This is THE main pillar on which the whole chemtrail 'theory' rests.

And the claim from the meteorological community is that not only can contrails persist (sometimes - but not always, it depends on atmospheric conditions - for hours, spreading out to cover the sky) but they have been studied (doing so) for many many decades. And there are dozens of scientific papers proving this. This is the main pillar on which the whole chemtrail hoax fails.

That's exactly the discrepancy between 'chemtrail theory' and the scientific explanation I'm trying to point out. I'm trying to find out why this discrepancy is never pointed out by chemtrail believers, and why they don't have an alternative explanation that deals with the alleged inability of contrails to persist, unlike any other cirrus cloud.

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: payt69

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: payt69

An often heard claim in the chemtrail community is that contrails can't persist, and therefore anything that does persist has to be a chemtrail. This is THE main pillar on which the whole chemtrail 'theory' rests.

You mean theres no chemical pollutants in jet exhaust? Whew, glad thats settled.

Where did I say that?

I'm discussing hte 'chemtrail theory' as defined in all the quotes I included from chemtrail websites. If you want to discuss pollution or contrails, go and create your own thread

You may have started the thread but it belongs to everyone. There are more than two sides to any debate.

Those two being, some mystery secret spraying and, only harmless water.

That looks like a false dichotomy to me. Where did I ever state that contrails consist of just harmless water? They do for the most part, but yes, there's also some pollution.. which btw doesn't show up as contrails as such. What you see in the sky as trails isice particles, buteven in circumstances where they don't show up, airplanes still generate pollution... They're responsible for about 2% of all polluting industries.

I'm challenging that contrails are something other than what they are according to the scientific definition. Some of those contrails contain no pollution whatsoever (such as aerodynamic contrails), but still show up as lines in the sky which can persist, and are therefore deemed to be chemtrails by the chemtrail believers.

Chemtrails as defined by the chemtrail community don't acknowledge persistent contrails however, and that's what's being debated here.

a reply to: Orionx2

Exhaust pollution is a different subject. It is under some scrutiny though.

Not really. And any scrutiny is outshouted by the two loudest voices. "Mystery spraying!" and "Only Water!" Ignoring the pollution of millions of tons of diesel exhaust.

Like the 911 Truth movement, and the Official Story loudmouths. Ignoring why the wars were started.

Like the War on terror warmongers and the islamaphobes... Ignoring unjust waging of aggressive wars.

you get the picture. Not you guys, you're the ATS chemtrail bashers crowd.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: schuyler

The point was that there is no difference between a so-called "chemtrail" and a normal contrail.

Yes thats the point isn't it. 'Only' contrails and 'completely' normal.

Not. Its air and light pollution.

I really don't understand why you don't get it. You're not usually this dense. The subject was not exhaust pollution. Nobody is saying there are not pollutants coming from an exhaust caused by the combustion of kerosene. But you can't actually SEE that. What you SEE is water vapor condensing the way I told you above. In other words, it's a cloud. I suppose you could call clouds "light pollution" but I would submit most people would not.

Now, please listen up because this is important! The discussion as started by the OP is about chemtrails versus contrails. The idea is that chemtrails are "different" because they show intentional spraying of CHEMicals into the atmosphere for some nefarious purpose no one has been able to define. CONtrails, on the other hand, are the result of jet engine exhaust.

Nobody is claiming contrails are 100% pure and clean. Nobody is claiming that jet exhaust does not contain pollutants. But jet exhaust pollution is NOT THE POINT of this thread, which is why OP just told you to go start your own thread if that's what you wish to discuss.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Orionx2

Exhaust pollution is a different subject. It is under some scrutiny though.

Not really. And any scrutiny is outshouted by the two loudest voices. "Mystery spraying!" and "Only Water!" Ignoring the pollution of millions of tons of diesel exhaust.

Like the 911 Truth movement, and the Official Story loudmouths. Ignoring why the wars were started.

Like the War on terror warmongers and the islamaphobes... Ignoring unjust waging of aggressive wars.

you get the picture. Not you guys, you're the ATS chemtrail bashers crowd.

Who exactly are those 'only water' people?