You May Just Be a Noahide

a reply to: ChesterJohn

God's purpose from the beginning read Prov 8:22, 23.

Every once in a while it happens that I grab my Bible, open it up, and it opens right to the page I was looking for. I will probably read the Wisdom portions of Proverbs then.

To tell the truth, I've rather forgotten what I intended this thread to be. I think it had something to do with the different kinds of mostly, sort of Christian groups I've noticed, contrasted to traditional Pauline Chritianity.

Pauline Christianity
The God of Old Testament is God and Father of Jesus Christ, a man descended from the line of David.
This Jesus has replaced most previous archetypes for mankind.
He is the New Adam.
Abraham was formerly the Father of many nations archetype, not Noah.
Jesus, as the promised seed, has replaced Abraham as archetypal Father of Many Nations.
Jesus, as son of David has replaced David as Son of God, ruler over all under the Father.
Jesus has not replaced Israel(Jacob) as archetype of Israel.
His death and resurrection have fulfilled the promises to the fathers and have been the light of the glory of God to bring the Gentiles into the knowledge of the truth of God.
Moses is just Moses, not archetype of anything really.

So Paul is no Noahide, because Abraham was his archetype in the position that Noah occupies for Noahides, which Jesus occupies now, according to Paul.

Now, even though Paul was the most instrumental person ever in bringing Gentiles to the OT God, the Jewish religious propagandists who want to dictate to Christians who and what they should be and believe, hate Paul with a seething passion. Why? Because of Abraham archetype. They want Abraham as their exclusive property. They want Gentiles to be stuck with the inferior Noah archetype, to whom no major promise had been made. Worldwide life destroying flood? What are the chances of that really?

There are various groups of people who once embraced Paul, but no longer do.

1) Former Christians who would just as soon give the whole Bible a pass.
2) Former Christians who don't care for OT God or Paul's God and believe that Jesus the good teacher taught a better God.
3) Former Christians who are of the opinion that OT and its God and Moses are true and Paul taught something else because he was the evil false prophet.
4) Noahides who don't know they're Noahides.
5) Noahides who know they're Noahides.

The main target of the Jewish and Gentile Noahide proselytizers are the people in group 3).

I think that I wrote the thread as a warning to people in category 3 who think that Paul bashing is a wonderful thing to do, and anyone else they see bashing Paul is their friend and ally. Because that is just not true. Unless you know them, and exactly why they disagree with Paul you should not assume that they are your friends. Friends disagree. Enemies bash.

I think that's what the thread is about. So, I think I'll sort of consider it closed. I have no real interest in arguing Bible verses and doctrine.

Thank you for the Proverbs tip, I'll check it out

a reply to: pthena

I am a conservative Christian, Preserved Bible believing and practicing, Though all that Moses and almost all you mentioned in the Noahide rules of life, except for Sabbath day observance most of them were restated in a church Context by Paul with no punishment for any violation thereof. We understand and know that Jesus is God and we worship him as such, even though others may disagree. We keep our lives in order, we do not kill unless defending ourselves and that would also mean in a war. We do not lie unless it is to protect ourselves form beheading such as, "Are you American", to which I would answer No I am Canadian. If asked if I was a Christian to that I would say yes.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Though all that Moses and almost all you mentioned in the Noahide rules of life, except for Sabbath day observance most of them were restated in a church Context by Paul with no punishment for any violation thereof.

Any teacher bringing to people knowledge of a god that they were previously unaware of, must also of necessity set out standards of conduct for individuals, the cult group(cult as in fellowship community, not a pejorative), and the individual's and groups interaction within society as a whole.

The Noahides have their list of minimum standards and so did Paul. The difference is Noah(as father of nations) or Abraham(as father of nations). I may be mistaken, but I do not recall Paul even mentioning Noah in any of his letters.

The Noahides have no place for Jesus in their teaching (at best one of many Rabbis during a time before Rabbinical teaching started being centralized in what became the Talmud).

Paul places Jesus front and center, as the Abraham. Therefore the promises to Abraham come to one and all regardless of tribe or nation through Jesus. (mostly from Letter to Galatians).

What disturbs me is the "all or nothing" attitude which would cause a person who disagrees with certain moral tenets of Paul (written for people living in a particular time and place), and magnifying a disagreement into a full on rejection of everything Paul was offering. To me that is unreasonable.

To reject Paul completely over some mere doctrinal or personality conflict is to throw away Jesus as the seed of Abraham, which is the most important thing he had to offer in my opinion. To throw away Abraham(Jesus) and yet retain the God of Abraham, is, for the Gentile, the recipe for bondage to those people who want Abraham as theirs and theirs alone, the Jewish propagandists, in other words.

I really don't think that it helps the cause of Christianity to hold to and teach an all or nothing approach to Scripture. But seeing as I am no Christian, and have no authority over Christians, I offer it as my firmly held belief.

a reply to: pthena

I will agree with most of what yousaid.

But if not a Christian why read and approach the New Testament in any degree?

did not you say you are worldly?

Are you not saved by Christ?

If the latter then without a doubt you are filled with the Holy Ghost of promise and secured in Chrsit whether or not you want the label "Christian".

Is any of this true to you?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

But if not a Christian why read and approach the New Testament in any degree?

I spent a good 20 years of my life intently studying the Bible and various systematic theologies as a saved Christian. My studies pretty much took up all my time, so that I did not excel in other fields such as Math, which I had a particular talent for. As much as I'd like to say that I am un-learning, the truth is that that isn't quite possible.

As a non-Christian, who has no claim on any offered "salvation", I have the freedom to look at issues related to Christianity objectively; the freedom comes from not having a personal stake in the matter.

Are you not saved by Christ?

If the latter then without a doubt you are filled with the Holy Ghost of promise and secured in Chrsit whether or not you want the label "Christian".

I don't know what "saved" even means. It's an empty concept to me. I think at one time I may have known, but if so, it's a blank now. I don't particularly miss it, whatever it was.

As for the Spirit:

John 3:8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Is Jesus saying that those born of the Spirit are the ones ignorant of where it's coming from or going? If that were the case, wouldn't the claim of ignorance sound like boasting? Maybe best not to bring the subject up.

There is a spirit of the Earth. That, I believe is what I feel most, rather than spirit of the heavens, though maybe not completely absent. That's why I identify as Worldly. If that makes any sense.

ETA

I posted this on another thread. I hope I don't get in trouble for cross-posting. Apology: The context is different enough that I don't think I should be judged in violation.


Celtic_Tree_of_Life_tattoo_idea
This tree is a recycling and purification plant in oh so many ways!

It need not have it's roots extend to the Earth's core,
people don't live there.

It need not send it's branches past the sky,
people don't live there.

The sky people and the earth people
are connected as one
by and within the tree.

a reply to: pthena

No, He is saying not to trust our feelings.

Do you then deny Christ now opposed to when your were a Christian?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Do you then deny Christ now opposed to when your were a Christian?

Christ as archetypal Patriarch(King) for all of humanity; That's Christianity. Jesus, the man, I don't think that I know him or anything about him. Jesus Christ as a particular individual archetype, I don't call him Lord. If it's true that the Spirit of Christ is restricted to those who say, "Jesus is Lord" than I do not have the Spirit of Christ. That sounds kinda sad.

a reply to: pthena

From What I know If you truly believed then you cannot loose it. However if you deny him so shall he deny you.

I guess that is between you two, I can not judge that matter.

I do know Jesus Christ not only as my Saviour but as a friend. I talk to him and he through his word my Preserve Bible. But you have to know his word to understand him. You have some understanding that if I had to judge I would say you have his Spirit in you from what I read from your posts.

I pray only that you know for sure before you hit the deadline.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

So two guys show up at the Halls of Eternal Justice.

The bailiff asks the first man, "Why are you here?"

The man replies, "I don't know."

So the bailiff says, "Off you go then."

The second man is asked, "Why are you here?"

The man replies, "I've got connections, and contracts, and promises of glory. I am here to receive."

"Right this way", the bailiff says, "Stand here and present these connections, contracts, and promises with all supporting documents, physical evidence, and testimonies."
-------------------------
The end is rather open ended. I've got no idea how it would turn out.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Rex282
As the archetype, would that be archetype for each person, collective people, or both?

Thanks pthena I apologize for the quotes however I was aware of them and I attempted to fix them and they wouldn’t edit.

Regarding Israel as the archetype of all of mankind:
To clarify my terms I am using the definition of an archetype in an amalgamation of the Platonism and Jungian sense as to embody the fundamental characteristics of a thing,a collectively-inherited unconscious idea, pattern of thought, that is universally present in individual psyches or in a basic definition …as a model.In other words the Israelites where the common old man archetype(1st Adam) just as Yahoshua’s disciples were the common new man archetype(2nd Adam).It is no coincidence there were 12 patriarchs of Israel (sons who were heirs of Jacob) and 12 disciples of Yahoshua.It is even more apparent model when a splinter of the Israelites who formed another nation of people were of the tribe(son) Judah and one of Yahoshuas disciples who betrayed him name was also Judah(Judas).The parallels are legion and of course the majority of Christians and Jews would not subscribe to them because of the religious belief not reason.

The main theme of the Tanakh(Old Testament) is centered around the exploits of a people descended from the man Jacob renamed Israel which means struggles with Elohim(Gods)..i.e… the nation of Israel.According to the Tanakh there eventually rose a leader amongst the Israelites named Moses that communed with the creator God which said their name was “I will be what I will be” which came to be known as Yahweh(YHWH).A large part of these exploits were the nations of Israel up and down “relationship/struggle” with their God.In effect they where enacting their name sake “struggles with Elohim” and the vast majority of these exploits are “down” when the Israelites (and later the Jews even more so) claimed their God commanded them to perform heinous crimes(rape,murder, pillaging,imperialism, etc etc).

These perverted exploits by Israel and Judah are a red flag to signal a persons reason that this “God” of Israel and later the Jews is not a God at all but many capricious Gods(Elohim) that were made in the image of these people.In other words Israel is the archetype of all of mankind's who’s nature is religious and struggles with Gods.The Israelites and Jews may have believed they were documenting their exploits to exemplify their God however it is just the opposite it was a testimony(witness) that indicts the Israelites as being a people corrupted by their religion and then Israel birthed the nation of Judah as being even more corrupt.

A person with reason can perceive this very clearly…. the nation of Israel and the Jews are not a people to emulate.They were slaves that became imperialist all in the name of their God.This is the broad stroke picture of ALL of mankind because mans nature is religious because the amalgamation of all of a persons experiences form their belief through faith of their Belief System religion.Many peoples “foundation” is a herd religion like Christianity,Islam etc etc…..however ALL of mankind are religious because they can only “perceive” their life through the religious beliefs of their Belief System religion which makes them struggle with Elohim(Gods made in their image).

I apologize for being long winded however this is a very complex dilemma however the core is very basic.ALL of mankind are models of Israel(struggles with Gods). However that also means ALL of mankind are in effect the “chosen people” of the creator God in other words the children of the creator God.However the great conflict dichotomy of this relationship is everyone believes their own religion and God as if it is true when the fact is ,none of it is true.

The religious elitist have flipped this Belief System (BS) and claim to be the “chosen few”of God(The Israel of God) and think because they believe doctrines of their religion they are saved and are special when in reality they are the self chosen many Yahoshua spoke of that are deceived and are deceivers.The evidence has abounded for milliniums.I does not necessarily mean these people are evil,many of theses people are deceived by those they follow(the blind leading the blind).The most corrupt are those who defend their faith the loudest in complete contradiction to what they claim to believe(benevolence,love,truth).They are ALWAYS the ones that adhere to the the authority of the scriptures( bible, koran, etc etc) just as the the extremely religious(in the case of Christianity) like the Jewish pharisee and saducee did before them.

My point is ALL of mankind are in the same boat(fortunately not Noahs ark)None are “special” not even the disciples of Yahoshua.All of mankind are the creator Gods children.The construct of religious righteousness in any form is eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and making “judgements” of something not known.The creator God is not concerned about the morals and ethics of mankind. They know exactly what mans morals and ethics are and the fact is Laws will not change anyone they foremost provide the evidence of the corruptness .Those that are morally and ethical corrupt will continue to be so because it is their nature and character. The laws secondary purpose is to compel those that are morally and ethically corrupt to not “act” according to their character however those acts cannot change their character it is only a temporary bandaid “act” to protect others from their corrupt character acts.

Many of the religion-religious (especially Christians) hide behind this facade of self righteousness(without knowing) and believing they are now “good”(saved) and walking in the spirit when in fact it is ALL just an act.They are still corrupt and for the most part even more so because they believe their God(themselves) has changed them(repented) when in fact the creator God is just letting them be their deluded self because Laws do not change people.

cont'd

In other words neither the Noahide Laws or the Christian Laws or Muslim or any law can change anyone.The religion-religious are under a strong delusion that their piety has any value.They will continue to look down their nose at everyone that does not believe their religion as inferior and cursed of God, deservant of eternal punishment etc etc.This is the most perverted mindset of man that is exemplified in Christianity.

They believe they are exempt from the Law of Moses(religion) when in fact they are not because they are in bondage to it by their doctrines of men. Yahoshua clearly stated those that blaspheme the holy spirit(curse the Life given by Yahoshua to ALL of mankind) do not have forgiveness(the Greek word aphesis which means freed from bondage) in this age(the physical realm life) nor the next age(the realm of death..Hades).

The game of religion-religion is very dangerous with no winners only losers.Anyone playing it will not come out alive but must be “cleansed” in the lake of fire by tormenting(basnizo…a touchstone used to test precious metal).Unfortunately(for them) the religion-religious believe that fire is stoked for everyone BUT themselves.The Good news is even they will be delivered (saved) but at great loss of LIFE.

Fortunately (for you)I’m pretty sure(positive) you won’t be joining them because the creator God is freeing you from the bondage of religion-religion.THAT is the crux of everything Yahoshua said and did.He did not come to start a new and better religion he came to free ALL of mankind “from” the prison bondage of religion-religion.It isn’t a magic elixar that changes a person by saying a pious prayer then believing religious doctrines and performing religious rituals.It is all done according to the persons character BY Yahoshua(the creator Gods deliverance) not by a religious person named Jesus made in the image(imagination) of the person who “believes”.Thanks for reading.I hope you understand more of what I was saying.

a reply to: Rex282

Thanks for reading.I hope you understand more of what I was saying.

I think so. I'm going to have to think more about the role of religion in providing some of the structure for a functional society. Perhaps multiculturalism has removed that role? Perhaps.

But I am not free of religion-religion, you can see my religion-religion under the tree picture a few posts back.

a reply to: Rex282

They will continue to look down their nose at everyone that does not believe their religion as inferior and cursed of God, deservant of eternal punishment etc etc.This is the most perverted mindset of man that is exemplified in Christianity.

Well, Jesus was pretty exclusive when He said no man comes to the Father, except through Him.

Don't shoot the messengers.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Rex282

They will continue to look down their nose at everyone that does not believe their religion as inferior and cursed of God, deservant of eternal punishment etc etc.This is the most perverted mindset of man that is exemplified in Christianity.

Well, Jesus was pretty exclusive when He said no man comes to the Father, except through Him.

Don't shoot the messengers.

Thank you for proving my point.

a reply to: Rex282

You didn't have any point other than blaspheming Jesus Christ.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Don't shoot the messengers.

If I understand Rex correctly, it was the disciples only who received the mysteries.

That reminded me of a time when paranoia got the better of me.
When I was 14, I was sent off to a boarding school.

One day, as I sat in my dorm room contemplating the mysteries of life, the universe, and everything, I heard out in the hallway, the hall monitors knocking on each door, saying something to each room occupant, then moving on to the next door. I listened quite intently, but could not make out the words.

To my extreme consternation, the hall monitors skipped my door and went on to the next door. I was certain that they were telling every one but me the mysteries of life. By the time my shock at being left out had turned to rage, they had already gone around the corner.

I flung my door open, ran down the hallway, around the corner, and tackled one of the hall monitors, demanding, "Tell me, Tell me!"

They both feigned ignorance. "What?" they asked.

"The meaning of life? Why are you telling everyone but me? Why?"

The guy I had pinned to the floor said, "Get off me! You're crazy! We don't know nuthin' "
------------------------
Paranoia is crazy, man.

a reply to: pthena

You're right, they did get the mysteries. Problem is, the Greek word mystery (musterion) is different than the English word mystery. In English it means something enigmatic and hard to decipher. In Greek, mystery means something previously hidden is now being revealed. Like sharing the password to a computer.

Christ revealed to them previously hidden things, not things that were hard to grasp or understand by a common man.

a reply to: pthena

I was reading your comments on Abraham and exclusive property of the Jews, sticking the "gentiles" with the Noah archetype as a best case and this being the cause of their seething hatred of Paul and wanted to add my thoughts.

The Ashkenazi Jews who dominate Judaism with Halachic law in Israel over the previously indigenous actually Semitic Samaritans and force them and any Jew seeking refuge to at least verbally accept this Covenant of laws. They have appropriated not only Jacob, Isaac and Abraham as their own but go even further back to Shem, when Askenaz was a Japhethite.

So they hate Paul because he was not a real Pharisee of their beloved Gamaliel more than anything going on in today's world. And because he was anti Torah and the prototype of the self hating Jew.

They already stuck the Christian with the inferior label you think they have yet to achieve in the word Gentile. Think about it, it is an anti word but doesn't translate back to Greek with the connotation it has in English and in Hebrew goyim is now an insult so either way you look at it their plans are not being hindered by some wannabe Nazarene from 2000 years ago who was a bigger traitor than Josephus but ultimately a nobody except to people whose religion doesn't require a lot of reading and are fully in submission as it is.

My two cents worth anyway. I could always ne wrong.

a reply to: Elsemyazazededera

I think I will attempt to show an example of The Good German before I get to the self-hating Jew.

The film's title alludes to the notion of "a good German", one who ostensibly was not to blame for allowing Hitler to persecute the Jews and others, and who did not see the Holocaust as it occurred before his eyes. In addition, the title is an allusion to the phrase common among soldiers of the Allied Powers during the invasion of Europe after D-Day, that "The only good German is a dead German" - and the consequences of this death are seed for all that follows in the story of the film. Thematically, the film centers on guilt, and whether it is possible to survive the atrocities while being unaware of and not complicit in them.
The_Good_German

Some how or other the notion exists that WWII was all about the Jews and only about the Jews. Bizarre and intentionally fostered idea in my opinion.

In the mid-1960s I saw an example of a good German. A visiting German minister was to preach the sermon in my home-town church in the U.S. Before launching into the sermon proper, it was pretty much expected that he was required to first spend about 10 minutes explaining his whereabouts, activities, what he'd seen or not seen during WWII, in order to demonstrate basically that he was a good German.

In 1991, I was watching CNN, sitting next to a German woman.

The Gulf War began with an extensive aerial bombing campaign on 17 January 1991. The Coalition flew over 100,000 sorties, dropping 88,500 tons of bombs, and widely destroying military and civilian infrastructure.
en.wikipedia.org...

The bombardment of downtown Bagdad was being shown, many residential buildings destroyed, people killed, the term collateral damage being thrown around. An Iraqi woman was shown shaking her fist in the air yelling "The curse upon you America!"

So I pretty much got caught up in the "curse upon you America!" attitude. I turned to the German woman and asked, "What do you think of the American activities?"

She replied, "They're just doing what they have to do."

But here's the thing, as a little girl, she was lying pressed up hard against a street curb, watching her house explode in Dresden.

The bombing of Dresden was a British/American aerial bombing attack on the city of Dresden, the capital of the German state of Saxony, that took place during the Second World War in the European Theatre. In four raids between 13 and 15 February 1945, 722 heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and 527 of the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city. The bombing and the resulting firestorm destroyed over 1,600 acres (6.5 km2) of the city centre. An estimated 22,700 to 25,000 people were killed.

"And Dresden?" I asked.

"They were just doing what they had to do." She replied.

So I guess that shows what it means to be a good German.

a reply to: Elsemyazazededera

their plans are not being hindered by some wannabe Nazarene from 2000 years ago who was a bigger traitor than Josephus but ultimately a nobody except to people whose religion doesn't require a lot of reading and are fully in submission as it is.

I think it would help my understanding if you explained what you mean by Nazarene, such as who, when, what differences in theology they may have from Pauline Christianity. The reason I bring it up is that recently people have flung the word around to "prove" some superiority over others, yet without even defining what it means.

Oh, and welcome to ATS