It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

How can you recocile paranormal beliefs and Judeo/Christian beliefs

page: 1
0
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 08:40 AM
link   
I do believe in God and Jesus. I do believe in what the bible teaches. I also believe in things like "ghosts" "demons" and many paranormal things.

Now, they are not mutually exclusive, but more inclusive of one another. That I have no issues with.

A very well regarded psychic has told me that he would like to help me learn to heal. Said it was my gift and purpose in life. This is something done on his private time, not $$$ time. So, I have no reason to doubt his intentions.

He is a believer in God also, and speaks of God during the times he talks to you. I am having a hard time reconciling the two as not being exclusive in this sense. I do know the bible says not to go searching out soothsayers. I do not believe I have that kind of ability anyhow. I do have an excellent sense of people and do tend to be able to help others.

I just do not want to do something that is wrong. I am very torn on this. Please do not attack either side or my beliefs. I would like a rational discussion of this




posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 08:58 AM
link   
I think that you should do what you feel is right, and what you feel will help other poeple. Isn't that what being Christian is all about? Besides, aren't the gifts that you have been given gifts from God? God wouldn't give you something without the intention of you making the most of it, right?



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 08:58 AM
link   
If I may be so bold...

Job 12: 7-8
But ask the animal, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you.

I do not claim to be a Christian man or religious in any sense other than I have faith in faith itself...that there is some truth out there.

Would it be considered wrong to learn what you can from this man, provided there is something legitimate he has to offer, in order to help people according to the tenent of your faith?

Is it possible that a teacher has been presented to you because you are ready to become a student?

Do you feel that this is a test of your faith and that this man will attempt to stray your from your chosen religious path?

I ask these questions sincerely wishing to know how the situation makes you feel...aside from "torn". While I respect your reaction to the situation you're in, you have to think about a broader picture, which you are, in part, because you seek to stay on your path and not take a wrong road.....but have you ever seen a truly powerful preacher that didn't have a checkered past that brought him to where he is now?

I'm not trying to give you an excuse to stray, but it would seem that learning what you can in order to help others would be a worthy cause...just so long as you keep your ultimate mission in mind.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 09:36 AM
link   

Originally posted by llpoolej
I do believe in God and Jesus. I do believe in what the bible teaches. I also believe in things like "ghosts" "demons" and many paranormal things.


Demons are in the Bible and do in fact exist. I have my proof but nobody will believe. If you're faith is strong enough to take someone's word for it, I'd say please do so. It causes a lot less pain than finding out



Originally posted by llpoolej
Ghosts are more subjective. A case can be made that they're in the Bible (Old Testament) but not 100% solid, no pun intended. Now the Holy Spirit is mentioned and is validated by Christians.

A very well regarded psychic has told me that he would like to help me learn to heal.


What is the source of said 'healing' powers? EXTREME CAUTION
on this approach. Be sure to pray about it.


Originally posted by llpoolej
Said it was my gift and purpose in life.


God knows your purpose. Ask him. If you are to follow your friend, God will lead you.


Originally posted by llpoolej
This is something done on his private time, not $$$ time. So, I have no reason to doubt his intentions.


Be advised of wolves in sheep's clothing. Any doubts about that, watch TV after 1am when you're really tired and hear how good everything sounds.


Originally posted by llpoolej
He is a believer in God also, and speaks of God during the times he talks to you.


I'd say not to jump into anything, ask plenty of questions, make sure he's sticking to doctrine.


Originally posted by llpoolej
I am having a hard time reconciling the two as not being exclusive in this sense. I do know the bible says not to go searching out soothsayers. I do not believe I have that kind of ability anyhow. I do have an excellent sense of people and do tend to be able to help others.


That's more valuable than physically healing a person. What good comes of healing the body only to lose your soul?


Originally posted by llpoolej
I just do not want to do something that is wrong. I am very torn on this. Please do not attack either side or my beliefs. I would like a rational discussion of this


Keep following up with info here or U2U, I'll do what I can to help and let me know if there's anything I can do.

[edit on 19-1-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 11:25 AM
link   
In the Christian Bible:

Did the disciples not heal people?
Did Jesus not heal people?

As for "soothsaying"

Did the prophets not know the future?
Weren't dreams interpreted to foretell the future?
Did God not find favor with the people who did these things?

Didn't "unexplainable" things happen in the Bible? -Miracles - burning bushes not consumed by the fire, messengers from heaven sent to inform people, the dead raised, water to wine, etc.

I think that some of the things we label as paranormal, one could see as miracles. I don't see Christianity and belief in the paranormal as being totally exclusive of one another. In some ways they are different verses in the same song.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 11:41 AM
link   

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
In the Christian Bible:

Did the disciples not heal people?


Yes, but that does not mean everyone who heals is a disciple.


Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Did Jesus not heal people?


Yes. Do I think llpoolej or his friend is Jesus? No.


Originally posted by wellwhatnow
As for "soothsaying"

Did the prophets not know the future?


Yes. Are you saying llpoolej's friend is a prophet? This is why I say be cautious.


Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Weren't dreams interpreted to foretell the future?


Dreams had templated my future...I am not a prophet.


Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Did God not find favor with the people who did these things?


Not in those who practices sorcery (Leviticus) nor was it the best thing at the time for Saul to seek out a practitioner thereof.


Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Didn't "unexplainable" things happen in the Bible? -Miracles - burning bushes not consumed by the fire, messengers from heaven sent to inform people, the dead raised, water to wine, etc.


All caused by God which is why llpoolej should be consulting God.


Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I think that some of the things we label as paranormal, one could see as miracles. I don't see Christianity and belief in the paranormal as being totally exclusive of one another. In some ways they are different verses in the same song.


Miracles are paranormal. Not all paranormal things are miracles.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 01:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
In the Christian Bible:

Did the disciples not heal people?



Yes, but that does not mean everyone who heals is a disciple.




I was not implying that every one who heals does so with the help of a Christian God, I was merely making the point that the ability to heal (or foretell the future) should not automatically be considered evil.

I asked the question about Jesus, not to imply that we have found him here on ATS under the screen name llpoolej, but to show that Jesus would not have automatically condemned anyone for having the ability to heal.

I asked the question about the prophets, not to imply that the originator of this thread knows one, but to show that not ALL people who knew the future were frowned upon in the Christian Bible.

My entire first post was designed to make the point that some people jump to conclusions.

Thank you, saint4God, for helping me make my point with your fine demonstration of the technique.

edit: grammar



[edit on 1/19/05 by wellwhatnow]



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 01:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by llpoolej
I do believe in God and Jesus. I do believe in what the bible teaches. I also believe in things like "ghosts" "demons" and many paranormal things.

Now, they are not mutually exclusive, but more inclusive of one another. That I have no issues with.

A very well regarded psychic has told me that he would like to help me learn to heal. Said it was my gift and purpose in life. This is something done on his private time, not $$$ time. So, I have no reason to doubt his intentions.

He is a believer in God also, and speaks of God during the times he talks to you. I am having a hard time reconciling the two as not being exclusive in this sense. I do know the bible says not to go searching out soothsayers. I do not believe I have that kind of ability anyhow. I do have an excellent sense of people and do tend to be able to help others.

I just do not want to do something that is wrong. I am very torn on this. Please do not attack either side or my beliefs. I would like a rational discussion of this


You have to be extremely careful here. Many will call themselves Christians who are not part of Jesus' fold of sheep. Jesus' own believers seek to obey the word of God in the Bible, not simply hear it. The Bible is clear that the human heart in its own state, not transformed by the Holy Spirit of God, is not to be trusted to do what feels right. The Bible is clear that God's ways are not man's ways at all.

Yes, I believe that people see Ghosts. There are two kinds that I have identified, having lived near Gettysburg, PA and studied the many hauntings there.

1. A replay of a past event. The scene does not interact with you and replays as though you are watching TV with no recognition on the apparition's part that you are there or that there is a future time interwined. My research into theoretical physics indicates that there may, in fact, be more than one dimension of time, allowing for looping back on itself as though playing a video tape after rewind. The manipulation of that dimension is available only to God Himself, but we occasionally see an echo or a crossover of some kind.

2. An interactive entity. Though it may be possible, at God's special allowance, to allow the return of a spirit, as when in the Old Testament, the spirit of the prophet Samuel was brought back through a medium, the practice of necromancy, communing with the dead, sorcery, channeling, etc are specifically prohibited by God to the believer. This is because the VAST MAJORITY of encounters are actually with demons who impersonate the deceased in order to lie to the living and deceive them into following lies instead of the truth of God.

I have a cousin who has a "natural gift" to see spirits and communicate with them and a friend who is now a pastor who also has this gift. The
pastor is clear that before she was saved by Jesus, she did not understand what she was seeing , believed many lies. Once she met Jesus and received the Holy Spirit, she could discern the lies being told.
Be extremely careful what a "spirit" tells you. The Spirit of God will NEVER
contradict the explicit Word of God in the Bible and will NEVER point to any way of salvation but Jesus Himself. Just because you see something that others do not see or access to information that others do not does not mean that you are being told the truth. Without a careful study of the Bible, you can EASILY be lied to.

The gift of healing that this psychic may impart to you as you open yourself up may in fact be a demon to demonize you and impart a power to you that the Bible calls a "lying sign or wonder", seeming miracles designed to deceive the world that this is a Spirit of God.

Also, there are people who see UFOs and also do not know what it is that they are seeing. These are also demons designed to deceive the secular society with lying signs and wonders and "advanced technology" in the final days. They are seeing something alright - they just don't know what they are seeing.

I know how they work because I was demonized until 1999 and was delivered from them by a Godly pastor who specializes in pastoral counseling which often involves deliverance from demonization. I felt them leave my body and I was changed on the inside afterward.

Just because this psychic does not want to charge you money does not mean is telling you the truth. He may not know the truth himself and think that he can combine a belief that Jesus was God with sorcery and channeling to complete his fireworks show. No one who follows the Word of God in the Bible would EVER call himself a psychic because of the direct connotations to the New Age Movement. The Bible says that even the demons believe that Jesus is God...and they tremble, but they do not obey God. Therein lies the difference between what Jesus called the narrow way to salvation and the broad way that leads to destruction. The Bible clearly says that people, in the last days, will turn away from sound doctrine and chase after fables and stories to hear what they want to hear.
Don't fall for it.

Remember also that the Bible is clear that the devil will sometimes appear as an angel of light here to help you. We assume, perhaps somewhat unconsciously from Hollywood, that a lying, killing monster will be a slimy, ugly reptile or bug or some other hideous creature. Therefore, when this meek little person approaches you gently with an intent to help, then it musat be a good thing. Not at all true! Don't fall for it!!!



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 02:18 PM
link   

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I was not implying that every one who heals does so with the help of a Christian God, I was merely making the point that the ability to heal (or foretell the future) should not automatically be considered evil.

I asked the question about Jesus, not to imply that we have found him here on ATS under the screen name llpoolej, but to show that Jesus would not have automatically condemned anyone for having the ability to heal.

I asked the question about the prophets, not to imply that the originator of this thread knows one, but to show that not ALL people who knew the future were frowned upon in the Christian Bible.

My entire first post was designed to make the point that some people jump to conclusions.


Fair enough.


Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Thank you, saint4God, for helping me make my point with your fine demonstration of the technique.


I think it's important to be very clear in these matters since implications in themselves can cause others to arrive at false conclusions. I didn't mean to imply that I was jumping all over your post, rather answering the questions posed. Sorry if these questions were meant to be rhetorical and took them literally.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 02:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by managerie
Be extremely careful what a "spirit" tells you. The Spirit of God will NEVER
contradict the explicit Word of God in the Bible and will NEVER point to any way of salvation but Jesus Himself. Just because you see something that others do not see or access to information that others do not does not mean that you are being told the truth. Without a careful study of the Bible, you can EASILY be lied to.


This is a very good point.



Originally posted by managerie
I know how they work because I was demonized until 1999 and was delivered from them by a Godly pastor who specializes in pastoral counseling which often involves deliverance from demonization. I felt them leave my body and I was changed on the inside afterward.


I'd be interested in hearing more about this if you're willing to U2U. I'd like to compare with my experiences.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 02:28 PM
link   
I don't see how a Christian can believe in Ghosts.

In the Bible it says you sleep till Judgment OR you go straight to heaven or Hell depending on which verse you read.

Neither say you walk around on earth spooking people.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 02:52 PM
link   
Beware of the Christian fundamentalist medical advice...

Jehovahs witnesses will still let their children die for want of a blood transfusion.

At one time Chiropractors were seen as charlatans, as were practitioners of acupuncture and Chinese herbalism. What we in the west see as "faith healing" has extensive parrallels with traditional forms of chinese medicine. It was not until 1985 that a French team proved the existence of acupuncture pressure pionts using radioactive traces. Study and clinical validation is continuing of Chinese medicine, particularly in regards to Qi or life force.

www.tcminternational.com...

In one hundred years time your health insurance wil most likely cover what your freind is doing and it will be known as medicine, at which time Saint4God, et al would happily go along themselves. The point being that it won't be the church who decides, it will be the medical establishment.

Personally for my money, I would be more inclined to learn healing by the laying on of hands from a qualified traditional Chinese doctor or a Reiki Master.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 02:54 PM
link   

Originally posted by Amuk
I don't see how a Christian can believe in Ghosts.

In the Bible it says you sleep till Judgment OR you go straight to heaven or Hell depending on which verse you read.

Neither say you walk around on earth spooking people.


Hehe, first we're too closed-minded, now we're too open-minded
. I agree with the soul taking that course when a person dies, however what I was referring to was Samuel 28 where Saul called upon the services of a witch to talk to Samuel. Could it have been a deception or a demon? Perhaps *shrug*. In either case it was not to his benefit and I think it had some kind of play in his suicide. I'd think anyone reading this, be it Hebrew or modern Christian, would've felt it was a bad move. The Bible doesn't give all explainations, but Christians do trust the explainations it does give.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 03:12 PM
link   

Originally posted by Flange Gasket
Beware of the Christian fundamentalist medical advice...


All I said was beware and now you're saying beware of the person who says beware. I guess we'll both get our way. I don't know if I'm classified as a 'Christian fundamentalist' or not, but I've been called worse



Originally posted by Flange Gasket
Jehovahs witnesses will still let their children die for want of a blood transfusion.


I remember this was a point of argument between me and the Jehovah's Witnesses. I cannot see their reasoning in this one though it was explained to me.


Originally posted by Flange Gasket
In one hundred years time your health insurance wil most likely cover what your freind is doing and it will be known as medicine, at which time Saint4God, et al would happily go along themselves.


In a hundred years, health insurance will no longer be a offered by companies because of the rising costs in malpractice insurance and will subsequently be too expensive to maintain as an employee benefit...but that's a story for another thread. There's a definate difference between physical healing and incantation, invocation, and the like. There's an obvious difference. Again, know the source of where the 'power' is coming from. I was told there was nothing that could be done for the severe wrenching pain in my leg (that had been going on for months) since x-rays showed nothing. I was given anti-inflammatory drugs. We're a society that pushes pills even when they are unnecessary. Sometimes they are, but a lot of times not. After throwing the pills away, I joined kung-fu (wushu) and after 3 months of training, no pain. Exercise, diet, common sense. It does wonders for the body and allows a person to focus moreso on the soul.

[edit on 19-1-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 19-1-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 03:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by saint4God

Hehe, first we're too closed-minded, now we're too open-minded
.


No insult to anyones beliefs intended.

It just seems to me that the idea of souls wandering the earth for sometimes centurys would be in conflict with the entire Heaven/Hell thing



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 08:05 PM
link   
Thank you all so much! All very good and helpful points. I am so glad to see no one has attacked the question I have asked, in an ugly way.

How can a Christian believe in ghosts? I don't know, I just know I have seen things that do not worry me. I do believe I have had demonic attacks, as I have posted here in response to other threads. I also have had experiences that do not frighten me, and some that have.

I am torn and I know to be careful. Maybe I am afraid of the old saying "curiosity killed the cat"



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 09:15 PM
link   

Originally posted by llpoolej
I do believe in God and Jesus. I do believe in what the bible teaches. I also believe in things like "ghosts" "demons" and many paranormal things.




God tells us in the Bible that when a person dies their soul goes to heaven to be with God or enters hell. Ghosts are not the souls/spirits of departed people. "Ghosts" are from the workings of satan and those entities that serve him. The Bible tells us that even satan can appear as angel of light. I would not pursue this matter if I were you, be careful of this pastor you mention.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 09:19 AM
link   
There is no pastor involved. I doubt a pastor would say to pursue this.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 09:35 AM
link   

Originally posted by Amuk
No insult to anyones beliefs intended.


None taken
. It was more of a dig on peeps who've called me closed-minded.


Originally posted by Amuk
It just seems to me that the idea of souls wandering the earth for sometimes centurys would be in conflict with the entire Heaven/Hell thing


I'm with ya, it does bring about interesting questions. My best comparison is that ghosts aren't necessarily 'souls' per say. Kind of like heat signatures seen on IR cameras hours after a person has left a room. Just my take on it until further evidence. Those interactive ones that make you feel fear and harrass I attribute to demons.

There's also dbrant's possibillity. I haven't ruled that out either and it wouldn't hurt to heed his warning.


[edit on 20-1-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 12:13 PM
link   

Originally posted by saint4God
My best comparison is that ghosts aren't necessarily 'souls' per say. Kind of like heat signatures seen on IR cameras hours after a person has left a room. Just my take on it until further evidence.


I have stated the same on several threads, I think watching a ghost is like watching TV. Nothing is really there but pictures, the "Ghosts" aren't entities at all.



Those interactive ones that make you feel fear and harrass I attribute to demons.


These are a bit different, I don't know if I would call them demons but I don't think they are "great-grandpa" either



new topics




 
0
<<   2 >>

log in

join