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Why The Liberal Left Is Dismayed By The Recent Surge In Nationalism

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posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:04 PM
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originally posted by: Substracto
a reply to: Gryphon66

"Every nationalist argues for national purity"

Wrong, you are leading the conversation to the extremes.


How so?

Perhaps a few explanatory sentences would be in order?




posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:06 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Because there's healthy nationalism and then there is extreme nationalism, there's nothing wrong in loving your country, your people and defend basic traditions, when that leads to racial killings, burning of multicultural sites, centers of association, now that is part of the extreme we dont want. You are seeing things in black and white, the same way extreme nationalists do.
edit on 24-7-16 by Substracto because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:10 PM
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originally posted by: Substracto
a reply to: Gryphon66

Because there's healthy nationalism and then there is extreme nationalism, there's nothing wrong in loving your country, your people and defend basic traditions, when that leads to racial killings, burning of multicultural sites, centers of association, now that is part of the extreme we dont want. You are seeing things in black and white, the same way extreme nationalists do.


Really? I'm seeing things in black and white?

I'm going with one of the most basic characteristics of nationalist politics ... you're talking about healthy patriotism.

The two can be similar, but that's hardly the topic.
edit on 24-7-2016 by Gryphon66 because: NOted



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:12 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

ah! so you think nationalist politics are bad? why is that?



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:13 PM
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originally posted by: Bobaganoosh

originally posted by: AboveBoard
a reply to: UKTruth

Statistics show very clearly that illegal immigrants are LESS likely to commit crimes than American citizens - why? Well, they try to keep a low profile and stay out of trouble so they don't get deported. And maybe they aren't bad to begin with.



Yea, check out these "statistics".

www.ojjpac.org...


Your blog says "thousands" of people killed by undocumented immigrants each year??

Here are the real statistics:





121
The number of people released from immigration custody who were later charged with murder between 2010 and 2014, according to figures from the Department of Homeland Security cited in a recent letter from two U.S. senators. That's about a thousandth of a percent of the total estimated number of unauthorized immigrants in the United States.


There were 63,061 homicides from 2010 - 2014 in the United States.

That means .19% (.0019) of ALL MURDERS in the US during 2010-2014 were committed by illegals (released from custody by immigration).

It is tragic that any of these murders happened at all, of course, and I'm certainly not making light of them. Murder, rape and other violent crimes are incredibly painful events, and the individuals and families involved are not "statistics." We should always seek justice and preventative measures where we can. The entire immigrant and undocumented population out there, however, is not on a murderous rampage.

It is important to note that one of the most conservative groups, the Center for Immigration Studies, has stated the following:


"There's no evidence that immigrants are either more or less likely to commit crimes than anyone else in the population," Janice Kephart, a CIS researcher, said last week on the PBS NewsHour.

In the world of the immigration debate, that's as definitive as it gets.

USA Today

So, while its possible that statistics show a crime rate for illegals being the same as the general population, there is no reason to believe that they are any worse than native born citizens or other immigrants. Other stats show less crime by immigrants. If you want to believe a conservative source then go with the CIS determination.

Also see:
Politifact - Trump's claim on Immigration & Crime has no data to back it up: link


edit on 24-7-2016 by AboveBoard because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-7-2016 by AboveBoard because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:14 PM
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originally posted by: Substracto
a reply to: Gryphon66

Because there's healthy nationalism and then there is extreme nationalism, there's nothing wrong in loving your country, your people and defend basic traditions, when that leads to racial killings, burning of multicultural sites, centers of association, now that is part of the extreme we dont want. You are seeing things in black and white, the same way extreme nationalists do.


I'd say you're talking about the difference between patriotism and nationalism.

Hint: One doesn't involve guillotines.



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:15 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

oh ok, an example, do you know of Hungary right? would you consider their recent politics as nationalist or patriotic?



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:19 PM
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originally posted by: Substracto
a reply to: Gryphon66

oh ok, an example, do you know of Hungary right? would you consider their recent politics as nationalist or patriotic?


Not a specialist on Hungarian politics, no.

What do you think?



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:21 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: DJW001

Perhaps you could point to this "humanity" you and I are sharing. Is it a feeling? Is it an idea? Help me to understand.


It is biology. We all share 99.9% of our DNA with each other. This shared inheritance produces all of what we call our "identities," including mental constructions like "nationality.-



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:22 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Right. The Reign of Terror happened in the American Revolution, right? Pffft.

As as far as what you're trying to sneak past ...



Pol Pot (1925-1998) and his communist Khmer Rouge movement led Cambodia from 1975 to 1979.


1.5 Million people died in the name of Nationalism. (PS, all nationalists are authoritarian including Communists)

History.com


I know when the reign of terror was, but you said the reign of terror was nationalism, not the French Revolution was nationalism (until you switched it later). Your mistake, not mine.

Like I said earlier, the Khmer Rouge was an ethnic and religious nationalism, not a civic one that I would advocate.



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:23 PM
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originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: AboveBoard
a reply to: UKTruth

Dog whistles? No. Those are far more subtle that what we are hearing coming out of Trump's mouth. They are so loud and clear I wonder that you cannot hear them?

Are you being selective in your hearing? What part of "banning" and "registering" all Muslims does not have an ethnic slant, as if to say DEAR GOD EVERY MUSLIM COMING INTO OUR COUNTRY OR EVEN ALREADY HERE COULD BE A TERRORIST!! This isn't "ethnic?" What part of that doesn't imply a need to "protect" America by keeping it "pure" from THOSE MUSLIM PEOPLE. Geez. I'm surprised he hasn't suggested rounding them all up into FEMA camps...

Then there's the dispersions against all illegal immigrants, calling them "rapists" and "bringing drugs" saying they are, by implication ALL really really bad people so we have to build a WALL to keep THOSE PEOPLE FROM MEXICO out of America, to keep America "pure" of them.

Now, I won't deny that there are a handful of bad people, criminals, that come illegally over our border - no one denies that. What is scary is how ALL illegals from Mexico are painted with a broad brush of being not just guilty of crossing our border to seek a better life for themselves and their family back home, or to join their family here, no, they are ALL BAD people. Beware the Brown Man!

Statistics show very clearly that illegal immigrants are LESS likely to commit crimes than American citizens - why? Well, they try to keep a low profile and stay out of trouble so they don't get deported. And maybe they aren't bad to begin with.

See???

- AB


Selective hearing you say?
Did Trump say he was going to ban and register all Muslims, or did he say he was going to ban Muslims from entering the country until proper vetting was in place? What's the full context of the 'Muslim database' comments form last November. Are you interested or do you just want the headline and the condemnation?

www.politifact.com...

I don't think this has to do with selective hearing - i think it is more to do with interpretation to suit a narrative for political purposes, nothing to do with the actual words used.

But you crack on.

Perhaps today of all days you should be talking about DNC prejudice, as Bernie Sanders is, after it's become clear the DNC were planning to smear his Jewish faith. I can understand the need to deflect though in these troubled times for the DNC.


From your link:

The next day, an MSNBC reporter asked Trump, "Should there be a database or system that tracks Muslims in this country?"

"There should be a lot of systems," Trump responded. "Beyond databases. I mean, we should have a lot of systems."

Trump then digressed to talk about a wall along the southern border, before the reporter interjected, "But that’s something your White House would like to implement."

"I would certainly implement that. Absolutely," Trump said.

Here, we’re not clear if Trump is talking about implementing a wall or implementing a database.

But a few seconds later, when asked how he would register people into a database, Trump said, "It would just be good management."

Finally, the reporter asked if Muslims would legally have to be part of the database.

" Trump said. "Let me just tell you: The key is people can come to the country, but they have to come legally."

While many headlines came out after this exchange saying Trump would "absolutely" require Muslims to register in a database, it’s not entirely clear that’s what he said. Trump was talking about building a wall along the border when the reporter asked if he would implement an unspecified policy -- "that" -- as president.

Through the end of the conversation, it’s possible Trump thought the exchange was about illegal immigration.

The same day, an NBC reporter also repeatedly asked Trump what the difference is between a registry for Muslims and the registry for Jews under Nazi Germany, to which Trump only replied, "You tell me."

Later that day, Trump wrote on Twitter, "I didn't suggest a database -- a reporter did. We must defeat Islamic terrorism & have surveillance, including a watch list, to protect America."

While that is accurate, Trump also did not dismiss the idea of a database.

After Trump’s tweet, Fox News asked him about his position on a Muslim registry.

"Let's hear it directly from you," said host Kimberly Guilfoyle. "Would President Donald Trump support a full Muslim database?"

"Basically the suggestion was made and (it’s) certainly something we should start thinking about," Trump said, repeating that the reporter presented the idea. "But what I want is a watch list. I want surveillance programs. Obviously, there are a lot of problems. … But, certainly, I would want to have a database for the refugees, for the Syrian refugees that are coming in because nobody knows where they're coming from."

Guilfoyle followed up: "So to be clear, you are not saying anything with respect to a religious database. You are talking about the Syrian refugees in light of the national security development affecting this country as we speak here tonight."

Trump said he didn’t hear the MSNBC reporter’s question clearly, "but even if I did, I mean, I want databases for the Syrian refugees that Obama is going to let in if they come in."

Listening to this interview, we noticed that Trump still didn’t give a definitive "yes" or "no" answer on whether he would want an all-encompassing Muslim registry, though he said it’s "certainly something we should start thinking about." He also clearly said he wants a registry for Syrian refugees.

Saturday, Nov. 21

At a rally in Birmingham, Ala., Saturday night, Trump addressed the registry question in a somewhat rambling way but still did not deliver a straightforward answer.

"So the database -- I said yeah, that’s alright fine," he said. "But they also said the wall, and I said the wall, and I was referring to the wall, but database is okay, and watch list is okay, and surveillance is okay. If you don’t mind, I want to be -- I want to surveil. I want surveillance of these people that are coming in -- the Trojan Horse -- I want to know who the hell they are. And the biggest story yesterday -- the biggest -- was ‘Trump wants database on Muslims.’ I said what’s all happening here?"


So forgive me for thinking there just might be something to the idea that Trump is "alright fine" with a database for Muslims.

And, may I also suggest, that he is quite weasel-esque in his answers, walking them back and forth as the need or desire arises. He also sounds like an idiot. But that's just my opinion. He seems to think he has "the best words."

So what did you think he was saying???

- AB



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:23 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

I'd say the line is blury, Orban built walls to keep the refugees from entering Hungary at will, his speeches are mostly patriotic with a touch of nationalism, the same with Putin, being that Putin comes from a communist background, what Im seeing right now with general politics is the lines being blured all the time, very assymetrical times!
edit on 24-7-16 by Substracto because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:26 PM
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originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: DJW001

Perhaps you could point to this "humanity" you and I are sharing. Is it a feeling? Is it an idea? Help me to understand.


It is biology. We all share 99.9% of our DNA with each other. This shared inheritance produces all of what we call our "identities," including mental constructions like "nationality.-


We don't share a biology any more than we share bodies. You have no stake in my biology. What we might share is territory, and it's laws, that is if we live in the same nation. Geography, the enforcement of laws, and borders exist outside the mind. "Shared humanity" does not.



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:26 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Was the Reign of Terror part of the French Revolution?

You're picking at nits so you don't have to answer ... that's cool.

Khmer Rouge ruled Cambodia and killed millions in the fight to do so. To "unite" the country.

Sorry you don't like real world examples of theory.

/shrug



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:30 PM
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originally posted by: Substracto
a reply to: Gryphon66

I'd say the line is blury, Orban built walls to keep the refugees from entering Hungary at will, his speeches are mostly patriotic with a touch of nationalism, the same with Putin, being that Putin comes from a communist background, what Im seeing right now with general politics is the lines being blured all the time, very assymetrical times!


Ah.

To me, in general, the difference between patriotism and nationalism is one of degree. Patriots love their country because of all the great things about it; nationalists want to change their countries so that only the things they consider "great" are left.



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:32 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Ah, got it now, thanks for your input



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:39 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: DJW001

Perhaps you could point to this "humanity" you and I are sharing. Is it a feeling? Is it an idea? Help me to understand.


It is biology. We all share 99.9% of our DNA with each other. This shared inheritance produces all of what we call our "identities," including mental constructions like "nationality.-


We don't share a biology any more than we share bodies. You have no stake in my biology. What we might share is territory, and it's laws, that is if we live in the same nation. Geography, the enforcement of laws, and borders exist outside the mind. "Shared humanity" does not.


Your irrational belief in the existence of laws and borders outside of the mind is a product of your mind. I know this because, unless you are an extraterrestrial, we share the same biology.



posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:41 PM
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a reply to: AboveBoard


Let’s look at a few numbers. You haven’t seen them in the New York Times, Atlanta Constitution, or the Miami Herald, nor have they been featured on NBC Nightly news or CNN. So, the average American is blissfully unaware of them.


Between 2008 and 2014, 40% of all murder convictions in Florida were criminal aliens. In New York it was 34% and Arizona 17.8%.

During those years, criminal aliens accounted for 38% of all murder convictions in the five states of California, Texas, Arizona, Florida and New York, while illegal aliens constitute only 5.6% of the total population in those states.

That 38% represents 7,085 murders out of the total of 18,643.


That 5.6% figure for the average illegal alien population in those five states comes from US Census estimates. We know the real number is double that official estimate. Yet, even if it is 11%, it is still shameful that the percentage of murders by criminal aliens is more than triple the illegal population in those states.

Those astounding numbers were compiled by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) using official Department of Justice data on criminal aliens in the nation’s correctional system. The numbers were the basis for a presentation at a recent New Hampshire conference sponsored by the highly respected Center for Security Policy.


Illegal Alien Crime Accounts for over 30% of Murders in Many States




posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:42 PM
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originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: DJW001

Perhaps you could point to this "humanity" you and I are sharing. Is it a feeling? Is it an idea? Help me to understand.


It is biology. We all share 99.9% of our DNA with each other. This shared inheritance produces all of what we call our "identities," including mental constructions like "nationality.-


And yet everybody has different DNA.




posted on Jul, 24 2016 @ 02:45 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: AboveBoard


Let’s look at a few numbers. You haven’t seen them in the New York Times, Atlanta Constitution, or the Miami Herald, nor have they been featured on NBC Nightly news or CNN. So, the average American is blissfully unaware of them.


Between 2008 and 2014, 40% of all murder convictions in Florida were criminal aliens. In New York it was 34% and Arizona 17.8%.

During those years, criminal aliens accounted for 38% of all murder convictions in the five states of California, Texas, Arizona, Florida and New York, while illegal aliens constitute only 5.6% of the total population in those states.

That 38% represents 7,085 murders out of the total of 18,643.


That 5.6% figure for the average illegal alien population in those five states comes from US Census estimates. We know the real number is double that official estimate. Yet, even if it is 11%, it is still shameful that the percentage of murders by criminal aliens is more than triple the illegal population in those states.

Those astounding numbers were compiled by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) using official Department of Justice data on criminal aliens in the nation’s correctional system. The numbers were the basis for a presentation at a recent New Hampshire conference sponsored by the highly respected Center for Security Policy.


Illegal Alien Crime Accounts for over 30% of Murders in Many States



That's whatBreitbart wants you to think. The statistics are about convictions. The same statistics could be used to prove that juries are more likely to convict Hispanics when they are accused of a crime.



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