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If you love america the you should support european socialisation.

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posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 03:57 AM
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Those of you who know me and have read my posts know what I beleve. That capitalism is the fairest, and most rational form of economcs yet devised. That America is the greatest nation on earth. These are the concepts I live by. So why am I advocating that we sup[port eurpoean socialism? Simple, Europe needs to hit rock bottom before they will realise they are on the wrong path. Just as a drug addict will not admit he or she has a problem untill they have hit rock bottom Europe will not admit they have a problem untill thier entire economy collaspses. They will not admit that thier economic woes, unemployment woes, and debt woes are a direct result of thier sociaistic ideals untill they have a great recession. Then and only then will thery admit that socialism stifles creativity and competition, penalses those who make society strong, and rewards those who leach the energy from a society and an economy.
The best way to help our misguided and deluded european brethren is to allow them to hit rock bottom.
So when you hear about german auto workers strking to change the work week from 40 to 35 hours when they are already getting more paid vacation time than anyone on earth, support them. Eventually the automakers will leave and they will see the errors of thier ways.
When you hear about french civil servants protesting the prvitisation of utilties, join them, when all social services such as mail, rail etc collaspse becuase of government ineffeciency and waste they will see the error of thier ways.
Help europe help itself. Help them hit rock bottom.




posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 05:24 AM
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Agreed. Although remnants of socialism are scattered around Europe. Capitalism is going to be hard to implement when there are still a few countries that run a fully functionally monarchy.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 06:32 AM
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You can pretend that the US's current version of 'capitalism' is the only one possible all you like but it is not true.

You might not know it or see it but we do......and you can keep your version and 'enjoy' it all you like.

We'll continue to enjoy the manifest personal and huge wider social benefits our system gives us.

Europe - with large variations between the member countries of the EU, it is not even a 'uniform' approach as you imply - very successfully operates a mostly capitalist but 'mixed economy'.

Some functions are funded and operated by the state, away from inappropriate or unwelcome tendancies inherent in 'the market' whilst other functions are wholly an affair of the private markets.

We're very happy with this arrangement, thank you very much.

Europe grows - and goes - from strength to strength, you'll be a long long time waiting for the collapse you seem to look forward to.

Still enjoy your grumbling!



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 06:41 AM
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And you know what sminkey? I am glad your are happy with the way things are and the way they are trending. I support it fully. I want Europe to become as socialist as possible. I'm sure you all are very happy right now. Most addicts are very very happy, untill they day he wakes up and realises he just sucked some guys cock for 5 bucks to buy crackrock.


Tell me sminkey that you don't see the rest of europe becomming more socialist. I'm not referring to the UK so much as I am euro countries (euro as in the currency) Tell me sminkey is germany becomming more or less socialist? What about france? What about brussels?


Can you honestly say the trend in europe as a whole is not torwards socialism?

BTW I never said capitilism as practiced in the US is the only way, just the best way.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 07:47 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
And you know what sminkey? I am glad your are happy with the way things are and the way they are trending. I support it fully. I want Europe to become as socialist as possible.


- This is where you simply leave reality, IMHO, I'm afraid.

Europe may be 'socialist' by US standards but then the US leapt to an extreme so long ago we could care less what many of you guys think.


I'm sure you all are very happy right now. Most addicts are very very happy, untill they day he wakes up and realises he just sucked some guys cock for 5 bucks to buy crackrock.


- I wouldn't know, I'll just have to take your word for that.

(....and where the f*ck did that comment come from? Do you always talk in such absurd terms?
Are you giving too much away about yourself there?
)


Tell me sminkey that you don't see the rest of europe becomming more socialist.


- OK, here you are......I don't see Europe becoming 'more socialist'.


I'm not referring to the UK so much as I am euro countries (euro as in the currency)


- There are 25 countries that are members of the EU now.....so, only the UK is exempt?



Tell me sminkey is germany becomming more or less socialist?


- Germany is a capitalist country with a mixed economy and is reducing the 'share' of it's public sector.
Sorry but that is how you measure this stuff actually and there is the truth of it.


What about france?


- Ditto France.
France has reduced the size of it's public sector so again I have to say (using your crude terms and guide) the trend is less.


What about brussels?


- What, do you mean Belgium?
Or the EU administration which is based there?
Like most Americans you appear to be showing some confusion about the EU and how it works in the context of 25 sovereign member nations.

Most european countries have, in the last 10 - 15yrs (as preparation for the euro!) been reducing the size of it's public sector, public debt and been moving to introduce 'flexibility' into it's markets.

Oh sure, that labour market 'flexibility' is nothing like what the US has but then we still (just) have governments that respond to the public demands and our people will not stand for US 'standards'.
Enjoy your Mc-jobs.


Can you honestly say the trend in europe as a whole is not torwards socialism?


- Yes. I can.
Sadly the opposite is the actual truth.
Europe has been reducing it's public sector and the amount of public support it offers it's citizens.

I cannot help it if you know nothing of this but this has been going on for years under the EU's 'growth and stability pact'.....a pact so tight that it is currently being looked at for a lossening reform.


BTW I never said capitilism as practiced in the US is the only way, just the best way.


- You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.
I could not disagree more.

When one moves away from simplistically comparing paper wealth and factors in quality of life issues we in Europe do very very well on that score by just about every measure going.

We know it, I suspect many of you guys know it and we will not be changing too much soon.

Enjoy the benefits you think you get from your 'system' - if things are so great where you are why complain about how things are with us?

Might it be that there are those in the US who have woken up to the fact that a properly integrated EU equipped with it's own major currency is no longer to be shoved about by the US?

Tough.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 08:27 AM
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- What, do you mean Belgium?
Or the EU administration which is based there?
Like most Americans you appear to be showing some confusion about the EU and how it works in the context of 25 sovereign member nations.


Sminkey I am quite familar with Eu laws, especially in regards to finacial laws being that I live in europe and that the vast majority of my clients are under EU jurisdiction. When I said brussels I was referring to the EU administraton whch as we both well know is based in brussels


- This is where you simply leave reality, IMHO, I'm afraid.

Europe may be 'socialist' by US standards but then the US leapt to an extreme so long ago we could care less what many of you guys think.


Granted the US comes as close to pure capitalism as any country in the world if not more so,
However it does not change the fact that the EU as a whole is addicted to socialised, educaton,healthcare,retirement,etc.


There are 25 countries that are members of the EU now.....so, only the UK is exempt?

Yes but the majority of those countries including all of the new members, The UK, and the scandinavian countries are not yet integrated into the single currency.


Germany is a capitalist country with a mixed economy and is reducing the 'share' of it's public sector.
Sorry but that is how you measure this stuff actually and there is the truth of it.


However you and I both know that that the government is not the only symptom of socialism. What about the massive power of the labor unions? Do you think that perhaps the work stopages,strikes, pay and benefits increases that are a nearly bannual affair might be just a tiny bit counterproductive when viewed in the context of labor costs?


Oh sure, that labour market 'flexibility' is nothing like what the US has but then we still (just) have governments that respond to the public demands and our people will not stand for US 'standards'.
Enjoy your Mc-jobs.


And therin lies the foundation of your downfall, The fact is that the people in most EU countres want things which are counterproductive to a strong economy. By continuously requesting and recieving less hours, higher pay, more vacatn time, more benefits etc. European workers are driving the costs of labor n the core EU countries so high that it is unsustainable. Is it any wonder that all of the new member nations are developing countries with very low labor costs? How long do you think those labor costs however will stay low?
As for Mcjobs, the only people working at Mcjobs are those too lazy, stupid, or useless to get a good one.


You see sminkey in the US if a man is too lazy to work, too dumb to work, or too useless to work we put him in a Mcjob as you call it. Whereas in europe you pay him either to not work at all, or to do a job where he works 4 hours a day while getting paid for 8.
Why do you think so many factories are leaving germany and france and moving to romania, hungary, etc?


I cannot help it if you know nothing of this but this has been going on for years under the EU's 'growth and stability pact'.....a pact so tight that it is currently being looked at for a lossening reform.

ah yes the growth and stabillity pact which though written and ratified by germany and france, is impossible for those countries to actually live up too?


When one moves away from simplistically comparing paper wealth and factors in quality of life issues we in Europe do very very well on that score by just about every measure going.

whats amazing is that you just stated the crack in europes foundaton as a strength. Yes europeans do have a very high standard of living, even better you don't have to earn it. I mean when education, healthcare, welfare, unemployment etc is so generous and so readily avalable why even work? Why achieve something which benefits the nation when you can live well just by going through the motions? Why have any ambition when the system is set up in such a way that the underachievers have a better lfe that those who actually accomplish thing? Why open a business, deal with the stress and headaches, pay those ridiculously high taxes when you can leech of someone elses company instead?


Enjoy the benefits you think you get from your 'system' - if things are so great where you are why complain about how things are with us?


I'm not complaning sminkey I'm encouraging. I live in europe and as such I see first hand how much you all pay from your ridiculous VAT, which you have to pay in addition to your already ludicrous federal and local income taxes, not too mention road taxes, property taxes, land taxes, estate taxes, breathing taxes toilet taxes etc. All of which BTW are higher than the comparable taxes in the united states in those instances where we actually have a comparable tax. But there is no way in hell I would ever pyut myself in a position where I am required to pay taxes to your governemnts. In truth most of the little I pay in VAT I get refunded anyway so its not too bad for me, allthough I do feel genuinly sorry for those of you under these regimes. (one of the reasons I offer tax planning in addition to our mainline investment services)


Might it be that there are those in the US who have woken up to the fact that a properly integrated EU equipped with it's own major currency is no longer to be shoved about by the US?





Europe will always be Americas bitch. No matter what you all may fantasize about. The simple fact is it is impossible for the EU to cmpete with the US on a level playing field, too much of your resources are drained by your subservience to the dregs of society. Its one of the reasons the EU government tries to offer unfair advantages to your local industres whenever possible. BTW great deal you guys struck with airbus on the A-380, I mean since it will never make a profit the 4 billion they borrowed will never have to be paid back. Very impressive.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
When I said brussels I was referring to the EU administraton whch as we both well know is based in brussels


- Well if you are so well versed in all this how come you seem so unaware that the EU has nothing to do with the private/public mix of the economy in Europe?

Unless you really are insisting on going with this incorrect notion that all European commerce is state-sector and 'socialist'?


Granted the US comes as close to pure capitalism as any country in the world if not more so,
However it does not change the fact that the EU as a whole is addicted to socialised, educaton,healthcare,retirement,etc.


- We benefit from state funded pensions, education and various social provision.

Not all European health-care is fully 'socialised' and free at the point of use/need anyway.
France and Germany whom you seem so bothered about, for instance, both expect their public to separately contribute to an additional health insurance whereas the UK you seem to feel OK about has health-care free at the point of need.


Yes but the majority of those countries including all of the new members, The UK, and the scandinavian countries are not yet integrated into the single currency.


- Oh come on. It's only a matter of timing, not if at all.


However you and I both know that that the government is not the only symptom of socialism.


- Sorry but that is just rubbish.
The only gauge of any actual 'socialist state' is the size and/or dominance of the public sector verses the private.

(Once again I realise you Americans have perverted words to mean something other than what they actually mean to 'promote' and suit your 'case' - just like you have done with the term 'liberal' and 'liberalism').


What about the massive power of the labor unions?


- What about them? The system of genuine and meaningful worker participation, consultation and partnership has served Germany very well for decades.
The US has large unions with strength too (not so many now, I agree, but has the USA been until very recently 'socialist'?!

This is a ridiculous 'gauge'.)


Do you think that perhaps the work stopages,strikes, pay and benefits increases that are a nearly bannual affair might be just a tiny bit counterproductive when viewed in the context of labor costs?


- Not necessarily. Besides the history of worker relations in Germany is very good.


And therin lies the foundation of your downfall, The fact is that the people in most EU countres want things which are counterproductive to a strong economy.


- Sorry but we do not agree with this view.

We see a strong healthy functional society as a prerequisite for any kind of strong economy.


By continuously requesting and recieving less hours, higher pay, more vacatn time, more benefits etc. European workers are driving the costs of labor n the core EU countries so high that it is unsustainable. Is it any wonder that all of the new member nations are developing countries with very low labor costs? How long do you think those labor costs however will stay low?


- We are never going to 'compete' on the basis of cheapest labour costs.
The world is full of people and countries who will work for buttons.
So we don't tend to chase too much of that type of thing.
You're welcome to it if you like but there is no money in it.


As for Mcjobs, the only people working at Mcjobs are those too lazy, stupid, or useless to get a good one.


- ....and once again this is an example of where you guys lose touch with reality. You need people to pump you fuel, waitress, drive trucks, work your supermarkets and basically be consumers for everyone else. Those people are as entitled to a decent standard of living like anyone else.


You see sminkey in the US if a man is too lazy to work, too dumb to work, or too useless to work we put him in a Mcjob as you call it. Whereas in europe you pay him either to not work at all, or to do a job where he works 4 hours a day while getting paid for 8.


- That is simply not my experience at all and I know of no-one working in continental Europe who says otherwise, it's a different ethos I grant you but those guys work as hard as any. I have also friends who work for US firms and the stories they relate......!

My point is this, anecdotal 'evidence' is as unreliable as hell.
Your negative 'experience' of European firms is about as valid and conclusive as mine about US firms.


Why do you think so many factories are leaving germany and france and moving to romania, hungary, etc?


- Why do you think? The margin is better - until they incorporate all the standards required of them.


ah yes the growth and stabillity pact which though written and ratified by germany and france, is impossible for those countries to actually live up too?


- No, they have been lving up to it, for several years now.
The point about a review is whether they need to retain something so 'tight'......most economists don't think so, so why continue with it in this form?
(Unless you are into some kind of damaging masochism as a kind of badge to 'prove' something utterly unnecessary.)


whats amazing is that you just stated the crack in europes foundaton as a strength. Yes europeans do have a very high standard of living, even better you don't have to earn it. I mean when education, healthcare, welfare, unemployment etc is so generous and so readily avalable why even work? Why achieve something which benefits the nation when you can live well just by going through the motions? Why have any ambition when the system is set up in such a way that the underachievers have a better lfe that those who actually accomplish thing?


- ....and yet for all these "whys" people still do - and make a very good living at it too.

Sorry but IMHO this kind of commentary says far more about you guys than it does about us.
I cannot help it if the American psyche is to look at the worst of humanity as typical.

People work and strive because that is what people do, here anyways. People want better lives for themselves and their kids.
Far from being a freeby no-one appreciates the social provision here - compared to life in the US - is actually very highly valued here by all but the most loopy.


Why open a business, deal with the stress and headaches, pay those ridiculously high taxes when you can leech of someone elses company instead?


- Because most people don't wish to live their lives as a "leech", most understand that the mean and low-level existance as a "leech" - for all the myths surrounding the possibility - comes nowhere near a fully engaged and contributing life here.


I'm not complaning sminkey I'm encouraging. I live in europe and as such I see first hand how much you all pay from your ridiculous VAT, which you have to pay in addition to your already ludicrous federal and local income taxes, not too mention road taxes, property taxes, land taxes, estate taxes, breathing taxes toilet taxes etc.


- Yet you fail to mention things like the tax-breaks.
Like the for instance that in France a man with 3 or more children will pay almost no income tax. Germany too has excellent tax breaks for families with children. Or that their indirect taxes are low too.

I will accept it is hard to compare like with like but it is you guys that are the weird odd-ones-out. Most developed economies across the world have an element of 'social provision'. Canada, Japan, Europe we all do it except you guys.

...in fact the US isn't even in the top 10 for the 'free-est economy anyway us.news.designerz.com...


All of which BTW are higher than the comparable taxes in the united states in those instances where we actually have a comparable tax. But there is no way in hell I would ever pyut myself in a position where I am required to pay taxes to your governemnts. In truth most of the little I pay in VAT I get refunded anyway so its not too bad for me, allthough I do feel genuinly sorry for those of you under these regimes. (one of the reasons I offer tax planning in addition to our mainline investment services)


- You are perectly free to see you life and living as nothing more than a series of accountancy.

We do not.

We pay our taxes and enjoy levels of crime waaaaay below yours (especially on continental Europe), levels of personal freedom waaaaaay beyond the 'Jesusland' and 'Patriot Acted 1 & 2' hysteria the USA is currently enmeshing itself with and generally have a quality of life we would not swap for yours.

We envy you nothing. Truely.


Europe will always be Americas bitch. No matter what you all may fantasize about.


- No.

You see Europe trades approx 80% of the total with ourselves.
Now we have our own successful currency we are going to be even further insulated from you guys - if we need be.


The simple fact is it is impossible for the EU to cmpete with the US on a level playing field, too much of your resources are drained by your subservience to the dregs of society.


- If you say so.
Personally I'd rather have a functional cohesive society than a series of armed fortresses and their paranoid occupants that seems to pass for a sizeable segment of the USA these days.

Each to their own.


Its one of the reasons the EU government tries to offer unfair advantages to your local industres whenever possible. BTW great deal you guys struck with airbus on the A-380, I mean since it will never make a profit the 4 billion they borrowed will never have to be paid back. Very impressive.


- Airbus need to make 250 - 300 sales to break even and begin repaying their loans.
It hasn't even flown yet and they're up to 149.
Actually.

Suck it up.


[edit on 19-1-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
That America is the greatest nation on earth.


Others say different

Please remember that Europe is not one country it is made up of dozens of countries all with different political opinions.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 03:18 PM
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is it me or is there a trend among a lot of american based posters here who believe that Europe is a hotbed of socialist attitudes?

and why do said posters believe that we have it so bad in europe?

i ask these questions only because you can bet that the same posters would become.... upset, if i were to start saying the same of their country, and believe me, i could say some pretty unpleasant stuff about the US if i needed to.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 07:19 PM
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a BIG way above for sminkey. you always manage to coherently get your point across, crushing any ignorant opposition in the way!


as many of you may also know. i believe that England / Britain / Eurasia is/are the greatest collection of countries ever to grace this planet, and i believe that as Gods chosen, we shall prosper. har-har.

Daystar, you may aswell save your breath with the unpleasant "anti-american", "anti-freedom", "american bashing". you're obviously just jealous.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by BLUELol
Daystar, you may aswell save your breath with the unpleasant "anti-american", "anti-freedom", "american bashing". you're obviously just jealous.


oh, yeah silly me! i totally misread the part where i actually had a pop at the Yanks!


at which point was i "anti-american"?

at which point was i "anti- freedom"? (lol)

all i said was that theres a trend of condescendency appearing, and my point is that europe is not the hell hole some people would like others to think, and that the USA is hardly immune to criticism.

so please, before you decide to go in guns blazing, actually make an effort to read my post and understand what i was getting at

then you may not look like such an idiot



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 10:35 PM
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Originally posted by Daystar

Originally posted by BLUELol
Daystar, you may aswell save your breath with the unpleasant "anti-american", "anti-freedom", "american bashing". you're obviously just jealous.


oh, yeah silly me! i totally misread the part where i actually had a pop at the Yanks!


at which point was i "anti-american"?

at which point was i "anti- freedom"? (lol)

all i said was that theres a trend of condescendency appearing, and my point is that europe is not the hell hole some people would like others to think, and that the USA is hardly immune to criticism.

so please, before you decide to go in guns blazing, actually make an effort to read my post and understand what i was getting at

then you may not look like such an idiot


"sigh", once again i have failed to portray my sarcasm on ATS.
in my post i was actually standing with you, using sarcasm to get my point across. i suppose i was hoping in vain that the first part of my thread was going to help me with the point! obviously not


to save face, and to prevent the turmoil of being branded an idiot, i shall apologise anyway.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 10:53 PM
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apology accepted

sorry i snapped, i get a lot of crap for sticking up for europe, and i guess i was on a short fuse. sorry again

peace



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 03:10 AM
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We are never going to 'compete' on the basis of cheapest labour costs.
The world is full of people and countries who will work for buttons.
So we don't tend to chase too much of that type of thing.
You're welcome to it if you like but there is no money in it.

Sminkey its not about being the "cheapest" no western country will ever be the cheapest in terms of labor costs, however even in western contries labor costs must be low enough for the company to turn a profit. The fact is European workers are the most expensive yet east productive on the planet.


.and once again this is an example of where you guys lose touch with reality. You need people to pump you fuel, waitress, drive trucks, work your supermarkets and basically be consumers for everyone else. Those people are as entitled to a decent standard of living like anyone else.

Decent yes, extravagent no. The fact is the jobs you just mentioned are entry level jobs anyone over the age of 24-25 still working as a gas station pumper, working at a supermarket at the counter etc. is a loser

That is simply not my experience at all and I know of no-one working in continental Europe who says otherwise, it's a different ethos I grant you but those guys work as hard as any. I have also friends who work for US firms and the stories they relate......!

My point is this, anecdotal 'evidence' is as unreliable as hell.
Your negative 'experience' of European firms is about as valid and conclusive as mine about US firms.
No they don't work as hard as everyone else and you are deluded if you think so.


Because most people don't wish to live their lives as a "leech", most understand that the mean and low-level existance as a "leech" - for all the myths surrounding the possibility - comes nowhere near a fully engaged and contributing life here.

And yet most do. They work as few hours as possible ding as little as possible while demanding the hghest pay possible, sounds like a leech to me


We pay our taxes and enjoy levels of crime waaaaay below yours (especially on continental Europe), levels of personal freedom waaaaaay beyond the 'Jesusland' and 'Patriot Acted 1 & 2' hysteria the USA is currently enmeshing itself with and generally have a quality of life we would not swap for yours.
hah hah hah hah
Sorry try again your murder rate is higher (the fact that people get stabbed nstead of shot is irrelevant, yes we have more shooting however per person you have more murders, robberies, home invasions etc.
As for freedom................ are you on drugs?



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 09:57 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
Sminkey its not about being the "cheapest" no western country will ever be the cheapest in terms of labor costs, however even in western contries labor costs must be low enough for the company to turn a profit. The fact is European workers are the most expensive yet east productive on the planet.


- Yet when you are competing by producing high-value, high quality products this kind of comparison becomes less than helpful and far from the full story, right?

'We' compete - with the handful who can produce what we can - and they are all high-cost economies too.
In many cases there actully is no real competition to our 'brands' anyway - what would you really prefer to be driving, hmmm?
One of those laughable vast American SUV things (what are they compensating for!?
) compared to a beautiful BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Bentley etc etc.

You can quibble about the level of margin all you like but a highly skilled worker in Europe is competing on the quality of their work and product, not the low cost of their employment package.

It comes down to the fact that people will pay a premium for our stuff, it's very high quality and it is that good.


Decent yes, extravagent no. The fact is the jobs you just mentioned are entry level jobs anyone over the age of 24-25 still working as a gas station pumper, working at a supermarket at the counter etc. is a loser


- Well you can condescend to huge chunks of your own population as much as you like we prefer to avoid such unhelpful sillyness.

....and for all that we still need people to man our services.

This idea of 'extravagent' is a funny one - especially as you insist on raising health as an 'extravagence'.
Ultimately our view is that excellent public health is not a matter of individual 'private' concern, it is in everybodies' interest.
You might prefer to turn a blind eye to huge areas of city squallor and health-hazzard but we do not have the space for that kind of crazy 'luxury' - nor, thankfully, the inclination.


No they don't work as hard as everyone else and you are deluded if you think so.


- We work smarter not necessarily harder - and we aren't changing any of that cos of you guys and your ideas.


And yet most do. They work as few hours as possible ding as little as possible while demanding the hghest pay possible, sounds like a leech to me


- No.
It's just different - and better - than what you are used to.
Your loss and problem, not ours.

Sorry it doesn't accord with your own 'ethics' but we do just fine.


hah hah hah hah
Sorry try again your murder rate is higher (the fact that people get stabbed nstead of shot is irrelevant, yes we have more shooting however per person you have more murders, robberies, home invasions etc.


- No; once again this is simply wrong.

In fairness there are statistics and there are statistics and in this field many of the available ones are several years old.

From the BBC -


Washington DC has come top in a poll of the world's murder capitals.
A survey conducted by the UK Home Office of 20 European and nine North American cities put the US capital way out in front with a murder rate of 69.3 per 100,000 population.

That suggests Washington is about 170 times more dangerous than the Belgian capital, Brussels, which came bottom with 0.4 murders per 100,000.



London came fifth from bottom with an average of 2.1 cases of murder, infanticide or manslaughter per 100,000.

Belfast was the most dangerous UK city in the survey with a death rate of 4.4. Edinburgh's figure was 2.4.



Washington was a long way ahead of the second most murderous city, Philadelphia, which had a rate of 27.4.

The nine American cities in the survey all came in the top 12 of the poll. San Diego had the lowest rate with 8 homicides per 100,000.

Only three European cities came out worse.

news.bbc.co.uk...

- ....and from the US government itself -














According to police statistics for 1996 --


the U.S. murder rate was 5.7 times higher than England's (0.074 per 1,000 population versus 0.013) (figure 5)
the U.S. rape rate was about 3 times higher than England's (0.71 per 1,000 female population versus 0.22) (figure 6)
the U.S. robbery rate was 1.4 times higher than England's (2.0 versus 1.4) (figure 7)
the English assault rate was 1.1 times higher than the U.S. rate (4.4 versus 3.9) (figure 8)
the English burglary rate was 2.4 times higher than the U.S. rate (22.4 versus 9.4) (figure 9)
the English motor vehicle theft rate was 1.8 times higher than the U.S. rate (9.5 versus 5.3) (figure 10).


www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

- Now, whilst it is true that per 1000 population the car crime, burglary and assault rate was higher here in the UK, it is also true that these rates have fluctuated and in most cases, at times, the US rate has been higher than ours.

Nevertheless all the 'serious crime' rates (murder, rape and robbery) have all always been much higher in the US.....by many times the British/European rate.

I would have to say that a single year or even a couple of years 'improvement' is hardly much of a guide to the decades long gulf between the huge levels the US experiences and what we in Europe experience.

It is also well worth pointing out that British crime rates are not typical of continental European rates either. Continental Europe have a much lower level of most crime than us and have had for decades.....personally I blame the US influence here
.


As for freedom................ are you on drugs?


- No; of course not.


I simply make the observation that Europe is a far 'freer' place these days - and becoming ever more so - since your 'Patriot act'ed 'Jesusland' was manipulated into being.
I'm sorry to say the USA these days just gets ever more scary from our point of view.

I would also say that these comments regarding Europe's position economically might sit a little easier were it not for the state of the US economy nowadays.
Record government debt the like of which the world has never seen, ditto personal debt and a trade gap with equally enormous size.

I'd look to your own economic difficulties before you dwell too long on ours.

I promise you this, I'd far rather be here in our position than in the US experiencing yours.



[edit on 20-1-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 10:02 AM
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it's sminkeypinkey vs mwm1331

the fight has begun, and only one will remain standing

you two should have a official debate
maybe along the lines 'Who runs their countries better: the US or UK?'

[edit on 20-1-2005 by UK Wizard]



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard
it's sminkeypinkey vs mwm1331

the fight has begun, and only one will remain standing


- Oh I'm sure we'll both be around to to and fro another day Wizard.



you two should have a official debate
maybe along the lines 'Who runs their countries better: the US or UK?'


- These 'official debates' sound interesting but also like a lot of research and time Wizard, thats my only problem with them.
Real life needs my attention from time to time too you know!



posted on Jan, 23 2005 @ 12:36 PM
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I agree with mwm1331 that the USA must help Europe to being socialist at all.

We are in the wrong path. The European Union is the main economic superpower in the World.

The top ten of the quality of life World`s ranking contains 9 European countries (the non European one is Australia).

The European consortium Airbus has right now the major part of the world’s civilian aircraft market.
Airbus has constructed the largest Civil Transport ever made (A380).
McDonell Douglas and Boeing have been defeated by Airbus. Airbus has an advantage above the American companies of 15 years applying the Fly by Wire system in civil transports.

The Eurofighter Typhoon has the 90% of the F-22 capabilities, and a 50% lower cost. This means that the commercial battle was won by the Eurofighter. There are several countries abroad that are interested in the Eurofighter.

The consortium Eurocopter is the main manufacturer of the helicopter industry in the World. Whatever the American helicopter manufacturer is not currently an actual danger for the European supremacy in this industry. The Eurocopter Tiger has won also the commercial battle over the Apache.

Some days ago, the Huygens probe landed in Titan, the main moon of Saturn. That was the most distant point ever touched by an human made device. The Huygens probe was designed and constructed by the European Space Agency.

The main oil producers are seriously taking into account the possibility of switching their oil trade from dollars to Euros.

America, get out of our way.




posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 04:55 AM
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I have also voted Sminkey for Way Above. This has been one of the best examples of a member eductating another member on how to deny ignorance that I have seen here, and the thread isn't even at one page long yet. Keep it up mate.



posted on Jan, 29 2005 @ 12:54 PM
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I've also voted for Sminkey as poster of the month.

It's about time that someone responded to the drivel which has it that A) if you're not American, you live in a lesser country and you should try to learn from the perfection that is America, and B) if you don't admit that the American system is the best way to do things, it's obviously because you're either jealous or you hate America.



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