Could Bruce Lee Win a Fight against a UFC OR MMA pro?

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Very well. You stick to your Opinion of Bruce Lee, and yes he could beat them hands down.

And we'll stick to Ours.

I think the reason some mma fans don't think Bruce Lee would do well is because there aren't any really good modern day karate fighters in mma to compare him to.

I mean, sure, there are fighters with a background in karate who actually do very well in mma, Wonderboy and Machida, for example, but even those guys don't come close to what Bruce Lee was capable of.

I think Bruce would be like how Anderson Silva and Chuck Liddell were so good at striking that they didn't need to use much of a ground game. He would dodge like Machida and hit with better accuracy than Anderson Silva in Silva's prime but with the kicks and "odd" strikes of Wonderboy. And the power in his speed? I don't even know who we could compare him to. Maybe someone in the super heavyweight division?

Would he be defeatable? Sure, everyone is, but mostly he would own people.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

Thankyou for that! The arrogance of the WWF and the UFC and MMA and the rest, cannot compare to Bruce Lee.

It's like trying to compare a circle to a square, it's Impossible!

a reply to: Bleeeeep

But at what weight class? Because there's no way he's doing open weight fights. And even Silva has a great ground game, which he needed to beat roided up monsters like Chael Sonnen (1st fight). And even Wonderboy is good enough with his take down defense to stop grappling beasts like Hendricks and Rory. I haven't seen anything even remotely close to that from Lee, much less him being able to do it repeatedly for a 25 minute fight.

Don't get me wrong, I think he was amazing as an actor, incredibly charismatic as a personality, and pretty innovative as a martial arts theorist. But that stuff means nothing when you're locked in a cage against well rounded fighting experts while being restrained by rules. Lee looked great against other stale martial artists, aka flat footed fighters who were raised using katas. His "revolutionary" approach involved fighting without preset forms (like katas), which is what all actual MMA fighters do anyway (same for boxers, grapplers, BJJ and Sambo fighters, Muay Thai fighters, kickboxers, etc).

In other words, I think his advantages would be nullified going against people who also fight free form; are used to being hit by trained fighters; have counters for locks, cranks, and other submission attacks; can fight equally well with their fists, hands, knees, feet, standing, crushed against a wall, or on their backs; etc. And his incredible skills with weapons would be useless (illegal) in the UFC. I honestly don't think he lasts a single round of oblique kicks and low Thai kicks from any of the top 155lb guys like RDA or Barboza.

It reminds me of the story of when Steven Seagal met the grappling legend Gene Lebell. Seagal asked Lebell to put him in a good hold to see if he could break out of it. Lebell did it, choked him unconscious, and Seagal supposedly soiled himself (literally). Something similar happened with Chuck Norris which made him start training in Brazilian JiuJitsu from the Gracies. I'll let Norris tell it himself:

I think some people just have a hard time separating legend from reality when it comes to superstars. If Lee didn't humble himself and go spend a long time training in Muay Thai, BJJ, Sambo, and freestyle wrestling, he'd get humbled quickly in the Octagon.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

You really love being controversial to everything you dont agree with, to the Umpth Degree!

Dont you...

You could write an entire essay on this and i still wouldn't agree with you servant.


Bruce Lee stands on his own merrit and until he comes back from the grave and says otherwise, i'm Team Bruce.

If you don't like it, i couldnt give a rats ass.

That said...

have a nice day

a reply to: awareness10

Why are you angry, though?

I like Bruce Lee as an actor and as a personality. My friends & I even used to emulate his extravagant gestures from his movies. But I've seen from experience that most fancy martial arts moves simply don't work against trained combat fighters. Even in the movies, they have to coordinate their moves and stand in place so the flashy "moves" will connect. A real fighter just dodges or deflects at the start of the flashy move, pivots into the temporary blindspot (all attacks leave openings), and counters.

I like Tony Jaa and Jackie Chan too. But I think both of them would get beat up against professional cage fighters too, though Jaa would probably stand a much better chance at winning fights. But that's because Muay Thai and Muay Boran (some styles) use real sparring, real contact, and place an emphasis on immense cardio and physical endurance. But even then, he'd be going up against fighters in the UFC who also have high level Muay Thai skills, as well as high level skills in other areas. Most likely, they'd just take him and dominate him on the ground.

He was incredibly fast but whether he could have freed himself if held down I wouldn't like to guess. We were great fans.

a reply to: Shiloh7

He could if he took years to study Brazilian JiuJitsu, freestyle wrestling, and/or Sambo. But if not, his fights would look like the early UFC fights where the striking experts got taken down and absolutely dominated by grapplers. MMA's evolving so fast now that you have to be good at each phase just to be decent, much less to be good.

a reply to: Bone75

Compared with Bruce Lee, the fighters you mention are slow, have low agility, and their form is no where near as good. Many of them, though larger in mass, are weaker in terms of stamina, and raw physical prowess, than Lee was.

Unblockable punches, punches that require no space to deliver and yet break bones, kicks that could break a neck, delivered so fast that even against a firm guard stance, would be next to impossible to defend against without all the bones in ones arms being shattered....

Bruce Lee would make modern MMA guys look ungainly, flabby, slow and stupid.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Then the director would yell "And... cut!" and everyone would get up and prepare for the next take.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

It's nothing to do with cinematography.

The simple fact of the matter is, that Lee was capable of destroying the human body at a speed and ferocity than are unmatched in the history of martial combat. No one has ever exceeded him. The slabby glorified jocks of MMA would have no response to the sort of attack that can break the collar bone and two ribs in the time it takes a gunshot to ring out. They simply are not fast enough. They would be going to the hospital, and that is just it.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Please tell me you don't actually believe in the concept of an "unblockable punch"? Do you really think trained boxers, kickboxers, and bare knuckle fighters don't know how to block a punch? Because MMA fighters have to be well versed in many different practical martial arts, including boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, Brazilian JiuJitsu and/or Sambo, etc. Hence the term "Mixed Martial Arts/MMA".

For example, could you say for a fact that the credentials I'm about to list would lose to Bruce Lee? These are the credentials of just one UFC fighter who I'll name later:

- 2nd degree Black Belt in Taekwondo
- International Master of Sports in Muay Thai
- Master of Sports in Boxing
- International Master of Sports in Kickboxing
- Master of Sports in Taekwondo
- Black belt & Master of Sports in Judo

2014 – Kunlun Fight, Legend of Mulan Champion Gold 60 kg
2014 – Kunlun Fight, IPCC Tournament Winner Gold (60 kg)
2013 – World K-1 Champion WKC, Peru Gold (60 kg)
2013 – World K-1 Champion WKC, Mexico Gold (60 kg)
2006 – World Muay Thai WMF Champion, Thailand Gold (57 kg)
2005 – World Champion KF-1 MMA Pro, Korea, Seoul Gold (57 kg)
2004 – World Kickboxing Champion WAKO, Italy Gold (56кg)
2003 – World Champion KF-1 MMA Pro, Korea, Seoul Gold (55 kg)

Muay Thai IFMA World Championships, Gold (2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2015)
Muay Thai WMC Champion (one time) (2012)[24]

And that's with a 58-2-1 record in professional kickboxing and 12-2 record in professional Mixed Martial Arts. Does that sound like some slow, lumbering fighter to you? Because this literal world class martial artist is the strikingly beautiful Valentina "Bullet" Shevchenko. And she's only the #7th ranked fighter in the UFC''s Women's Bantamweight division.

In other words, your preconceived notions about what kind of fighters compose professional MMA fighters are probably very wrong. And yes, I think she beats Bruce Lee in a UFC-rules fight, too, and probably also in any form of sanctioned kickboxing match and would look infinitely better in movie roles, too.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I think you're accusing me of your own crime. I'm aware of the Gracie legend, but I'm also well aware of how they didn't hold up in mma.

Think back through the years of mma. What is the most successful fighting style? It's muay thai, right? And why is that? It's because it is a well disciplined striking style. Simply put, striking beats submission.

Now, match up a really good muay thai fighter and a really good karate fighter. What are the real differences? Muay thai is close quarters, clinching, etc., and it is more forgiving because of it, whereas karate is more about strong precise ranged attacks. Now think back to mma muay thai again: who are the best of the best? They're the ones who actually evade and use defensive style, almost completely opposite of what muay thai is - they're style is almost like that of karate users, only they do not take advantage of the range to deliver powerful strikes.

Why is muay thai more successful than karate in mma then? Because my original argument: there aren't any really good karate fighters. Karate had become watered down through commercialization and so all the karate mma fighters were losing against other styles. As a result of that, all the up and coming fighters imitated the winning fighters simply because defensive style muay thai was what worked for people who weren't as fast or precise as you need to be to use karate. Muay thai is very very forgiving like that.

So yeah, I have to stay with my original thought. Bruce Lee, one of the best karate experts to ever live, would be better like a gun versus a knife against other striking disciplines. I mean, to me, it is just a matter of fact. Maybe you should pay more attention while watching the fights - with your brain turned on? If you do, if you take notice of what they're doing, you will see what I mean.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I do believe that Bruce Lee had a punch so fast that it could not be seen or even registered by ANYONE, even persons who had devoted their lives from the age of two, until the age of thirty, to martial arts of all kinds, until it had already landed. I do not believe that other fighters have such technique. I genuinely believe that if you plonked Mr Lee in a cage with anyone you care to name, that he could break them without taking things to the floor, win a fight on his feet like a real fighter, rather than dry humping his opponent into submission like a horny dog.

I believe every time someone aimed a punch at him, that person would find their arm broken at the wrist and elbow. I believe every time a kick was aimed in his direction, that he would take the opposite leg, breaking it at the knee, ending the fight. I believe that if someone tried to put him on the floor, that he would remain on his feet regardless, because he was a freak of nature. All those plaudits you posted, for the fighter you mentioned are irrelevant.

Why?

Because all that says is that the fighter you referred to, is really good at beating a world full of people who are no where near as fast, precise, strong, conditioned and outright hard, as Bruce Lee.

a reply to: Bleeeeep

I respectfully disagree. The mark that the Gracies left on MMA is that every single fighter absolutely has to learn Brazilian Jiujitsu or Combat Sambo or they'll be powerless in MMA. Hence, why I keep mentioning it alongside the other styles that are essential to being even "decent" in MMA.

Did you see the Chuck Norris clip I linked? He literally had a black belt in Judo (as well as the other martial arts that he's more known for) and he admits the Gracies toyed with him while sparring before the father put him to sleep. That's why Chuck admitted to taking up BJJ for 28 years as a student after the encounter.

As for Muay Thai: the reason it's successful in MMA is because it's a great mix of full body striking, clinch work, and transitions into takedowns. This helps fighters from any other disciple speed up their transition into MMA. For example, freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestlers are great at clinch work and takedowns, but generally suck at striking. So Muay Thai teaches them solid striking that easily transitions into their wrestling (though some wrestlers prefer boxing as the transition art).

But no pure Muay Thai fighter is going to do well in MMA at the medium or upper levels because it doesn't teach anything about open guards, half guards, side mounts, full mounts, or any of the hundreds to thousands of ground based ankle locks, hip locks, kneebars, shoulder locks, wrist locks, or elbow locks, much less the cranks and chokes. MMA fighters have to know how to defend all of these in real-time or they'll lose. Even the notorious bad ground fighter Conor McGregor is one belt away from having a black belt in BJJ.

Karate is nice for a striking background, as Wonderboy, Machida, GSP, and my favorite the Karate Hottie Michelle Waterson can show. But every single one of them also had to learn grappling and submission arts because they've all lost to grapplers (not sure if Michelle has yet, but she also has training in Wushu, Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Boxing, and Wrestling). In fact, GSP got demolished by a boxer which caused him to abandon his exciting Karate based style in favor of a boring wrestling style (and he never lost again after doing that).

Ne4edless to say, Bruce Lee would get nowhere in MMA without real training in ground based fighting.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Just for the record, do you actually watch MMA? Or any of the professional kickboxing and Muay Thai leagues where many MMA fighters come from? Because it seems like your idea of what martial artists can do is stuck in the past.

Here are 2 modern fighters who aren't even champs, former 155lb champ "Showtime" Pettis and 135lb fighter John Dodson. I'm picking them because they're good representatives of the weight classes Bruce Lee would probably have to face if he were to fight in the UFC (note: neither of these guys is even top 5 in their respective divisions).

You might want to remember something. Before Bruce Lee revolutionized Hollywood's idea of "fighting scenes", fight scenes typically looked like this:
So yes, Bruce Lee truly revolutionized on screen fighting compared to those highly telegraphed, slow haymaker "brawls".

And 2nd, many Chinese martial arts had a strong emphasis on preset sequences (like katas) to learn their techniques. But those preset sequences are unrealistic in real fights, especially against other trained fighters. So Bruce Lee's formless style was revolutionary to those people as well. But it was NOT revolutionary to actual formless fighting styles like the ones I've mentioned before. And it's "groundfighting" is laughable compared to BJJ and Sambo.

Also, how do you really think he'd instantly break the arm of trained fighters the second they threw their fists at him? LOL do you mean perhaps with a "flying armbar", like this?Because MMA fighters have to learn how to defend against those too. And uhh, if you think Bruce Lee was more fit than MMA guys like Luke Rockhold, Jacare Souza, and Yoel Romero, I don't know what to tell you.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I agree in todays MMA against the best, Lee would have trouble. But thats assuming he just time warped here from the past. If he was around today he'd be in as good or better fighting shape and master of the modern technique, as he was back then

Important to remember many MMA fighters consider him the father of MMA. He used techniques back then like the arm bar that had never been seen before.

He also defeated the best the Chinese had to offer in a fight off to demonstrate 'who was the best', at that time.

It took him three minutes.

Edit: See How Bruce Lee Changed The World.

a reply to: awareness10

Bruce Lee was way too fast for any MMA fighter to deal with. I don't think it would be much of a contest.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I'm pretty sure Norris was exaggerating because you can't instantly put someone to sleep with a submission move. Even still, Norris was rolling around on the ground with him when there would be no need to in a real fight -- in a real fight he could have kept it standing, easily defeating any of the Gracies.

But more to your point, Karate does have take down moves, though I'm not sure why you're trying to make that point? Strikers do not want to go to the ground, unless they are going for "ground and pound" on an already badly hurt opponent, and so the key is really to be evasive like karate is or like muay thai has evolved into.

Bruce Lee was The Best and Still is The Best!