Axe attack in a german train - Coincidences, drills and dead attackers

Have a nice day, dear ATS folks!!!
I don´t know how i should start. Maybe i just tell you why i thought i had to open this thread. I hope Ats skunk works is the right place for this.
As the most of you will know, last night an attack happened in a train in germany.
As we know now the attacker was a 17 years old refugee from afghanistan. "For sure" the attacker shouted Allahu Akbar, "for sure" security officials found a (selfpainted) IS flag at his room, as "for sure" they found documents that prove his ties to the "IS". Because that´s how terrorists act nowadays, leaving undeniable tracks for the investigators... But that´s another story.

Don´t get me wrong, i don´t say that this was staged. But i have that feeling that somehow everything that happens has to be an "IS" attack. Even if the suspects had to perform "instant radicalizings" for that...
I guess 15, 16 years of afghanistan can damage your mind. It´s not a problem tp believe that the attacker had problems. Who knows what he saw, what he maybe did before, in afghanistan. Who he lived with, who brought him up, who educated him. It´s not hard to believe that he really was a radical muslim. But other things are not hard to believe, too, as a conspiracy theorists that asks everything!

Back to my reason for this thread. When i heard last night the first news here about that event i instantly mentioned something, when i heard Joachim Herrmann(bavarin politician) saying:

"Coincidentally there was a SEK(Spezial Einsatz Kommando, kind of police special forces) team nearby..."
Remember: COINCIDENTALLY!

I instantly remembered another rampage that happened here some years ago. Winnenden/Tim K.

Binnen weniger Minuten trifft eine Hundertschaft ein, die ganz in der Nähe ZUFÄLLIG eine Übung für den Nato-Gipfel im April durchführt.
Within minutes, a group of a hundred who happened to be near, COINCIDENTALLY performing an exercise for the NATO summit in April, arrived.(I hope my translation isn´t too bad, but google translator was even worse xD)
And coincidentally it was the SEK, as last night...

Not to forget all the known exercises near rampages or terror attacks in the US, from 9/11 over Sandy Hook and Aurora to the Boston Bombings.
Or in Europe: London 7/7, Norway/Breivik, the Madrid 3/11 Bombings, to name some of them.

Till now the officials didn´t tell us why the SEK last night was "coincidentally" nearby. They just said because of another event. Maybe they thought this sounds better than again an exercise?

The next thing is, another politician, Renate Kühnast, asked after she heard that the attacker was shot to death, via Twitter(no joke, that´s what politicians do nowadays, the are "tweeting"...):

Tragisch und wir hoffen für die Verletzten. Wieso konnte der Angreifer nicht angriffsunfähig geschossen werden???? Fragen! #Würzburg @SZ
Tragically and we hope for the injured. Why couldn´t the attacker have been shot unfit???? Questions!
Twitter

She earned what we call in Germany, in our dumb "denglish"(mix of deutsch and english) a "#storm". Means, she got a lot of harsh reactions.
People becoming more and more "USA" here, everyone celebrates when attackers were shot to death and demand it, if not. Law and order, police state rising?
But what information could give a dead attacker to the investigators, secret services etc?
And how can it be that a whole team of the SEK(as we know some of the best and most trained police forces here) can´t shoot a 17 years old attacker without firearms and/or explosives, running away from them, in his legs, to catch him alive, to get informations?
Somehow it feels as if every attacker nowadays has to die. They even blow them up by remote controlled ground drones. It has a little taste of retaliation for me.
Or maybe even worse, it often feels like the attackers have to die for the only one reason that they can´t talk anymore, when they are dead.

I am not even saying that the event last night didn´t happen as we are told.
But there are these coincidences and (at least for me) illogical inconsistencies, like:

They found that self painted "IS" flag. Not on day three like in Nice, but some hours after the event.
Ok, even that can be possible, that they really found such a flag. The lunatic was 17 years old, so it is possible for me that he acted like a child.
Bu that raises the question why he left this flag at home? Why didn´t he "wear" it while the attack, for example. It looks as if he planned the attack, because nobody sane leaves the house with knives and an axe. Did he just forget his "IS ID"?
Or do need "IS" terrorists nowadays to leave tracks of "glaring evidence", for all costs.

If i would be a terrorists, i wouldnt leave anything in my home that ties me to any terrorist group. Less than ever a testament, facebook posts, twitter posts, links to terror pages and all that crap. Because that is too much risk. Somebody could mention something and stop everything before whatever happens. I wouldn´t use the internet for anything, as i wouldn´t use any cellphones/spyPhones. I wouldn´t have any Facebook, Twitter or whatever accounts that leave tracks(oh, i don´t use "social" media, makes me that a terrorist yet?).
If i would be a muslim terrorist, i would not grow a beard, i would be clean shaved. If i would be a nazi terrorist, i would grow my hairs and wear clothes like the last hippy/nerd/freak whatever. I wouldn´t store weapons, bombs, explosives or whatever is used at my home. Or any "documents" that would be evidence for my terror ties. I am asking myself till now which "documents", that prove his ties to the "IS", they wanna have found.

Did the "IS" write postcards from their wannabe caliphate to him? Or did he get a diploma of the "IS university"? Did they send him the plans of how to perform his attack? I am just wondering which documents could prove ones ties to the "IS". And which terrorist wouldn´t destroy such tracks. Do they give ID´s and birth certificates to their cannon fodder?

Listening to the news right now, the "IS" claims this attack. Like after two days in Nice(everything in the Nice case took a bit longer than normally...). And even european security officials smell an act of freeloading by the "IS". Now again with this "IS" attack in germany.

The problem is, everybody can be "IS". Paint a flag and shout Allahu Akbar, then the security officials have enough reason to cut the peoples liberty a bit again.

But, my main reason for this thread were the "coincidences" with the SEK. Coincidentally they were nearby two rampages, both attackers dead.
The Winnenden/Tim K. case is fishy anyways. But that´s again another story.

Makes one think that the SEK maybe at least is very trigger happy. Or isn´t that good, ewell trained and professional as they are presented to us. Searched for a case that happened here in Cologne. Couldn´t find something in english, will explain a bit.

The wife of the victim reported him to the police for ALLEGED death threats. Important to know is that they both had beef because of their relationship, about child custody. So the woman called the police and said that he allegedly threated her with death. Then this happened, minutes later:


will be continued...

continue...

Look at the car, the guy is a greengrocer at the cologne wholesale market. So greengrocers need guns in germany? He obvisiously is a criminal. But is this a reason to try to kill a man just because his wife, he has beef with, alleged that he threatened her with death.

Ah, the guy shot back because in that shock he thought someome would rob him, or would try to kill him. Then the well-trained SEK needed 109 shots and couldn´t stop the injured driver from leaving the spot, to ride several kilometers.

Maybe yesterday, in the dark, they shot as good as in that video?

I will leave now, we have two to three days of summer here in germany, i have to use them.
Just felt i have to tell what i mentioned to you ATS folks.
Will be back later!

a reply to: DerBeobachter

As we know now the attacker was a 17 years old refugee from afghanistan. "For sure" the attacker shouted Allahu Akbar, "for sure" security officials found a (selfpainted) IS flag at his room, as "for sure" they found documents that prove his ties to the "IS". Because that´s how terrorists act nowadays, leaving undeniable tracks for the investigators... But that´s another story.

That is how suicide terrorists from organizations like ISIS have always acted i dont see the real mystery here. This is not a organized crime group like the mafia who are trying to stay alive and out of jail denying that they did it in order to keep the family business running.

This is ISIS They want the world to know that they did it and why it is the whole point of their actions. The killer is proud of what he is going to do/has done and knows/assumes that is not going to survive it.

a reply to: DerBeobachter

People becoming more and more "USA" here, everyone celebrates when attackers were shot to death and demand it,

eh... and you don't ?

a reply to: everyone

How about "No, we would like to question him"?
Because that might give us more clues to the background and maybe to some of the masterminds behind this game?

And that would be far more important than killing a person instead of jail.

originally posted by: everyone
a reply to: DerBeobachter

People becoming more and more "USA" here, everyone celebrates when attackers were shot to death and demand it,

eh... and you don't ?

Do you understand the idea of catching a person alive for information, is that not simple to understand
To many Clint Eastwood movies

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: everyone
a reply to: DerBeobachter

People becoming more and more "USA" here, everyone celebrates when attackers were shot to death and demand it,

eh... and you don't ?

Do you understand the idea of catching a person alive for information, is that not simple to understand
To many Clint Eastwood movies

tbh that is what i was thinking when i read that argument in the OP so i could ask you that same question. Did you watch to many picture perfect movies? Because shooting someone who is desperately trying to run away from you in the arms or the legs is far from simple for the simple fact that all those arms and legs are moving and flailing about like mad.

So there you stand with a man down your sights who is trying to run away from you as fast as he can still with the axe in hand with which he just attacked 20 innocent people. Do you take the tremendous risk of missing his arms or legs or do you choose to make sure he goes down before he goes around the corner and runs into another group of innocent man. woman and children?

You take him down with the lest amount of risk to yourself and others around it, THAT is what they would have taught a expert in such situations.

Every time someone goes on a shooting rampage, the motives are a little bit fuzzier to those paying attention to the few facts that get out- while the MSM screams the same bull#.

Every time, they're made very dead, very fast.
I get it- the police/swat/military/etc don't want to put themselves in any more danger than they need to...

but it sure would be nice to question these #ers.
I bet we'd get some real useful information out of them- like how the events in their lives all fell into place to put them where they are. Knowing more about those events and the timing of it all, I bet we could connect it to the true terrorists in this country- the ones manipulating the people for their own twisted means.

a reply to: everyone

Fair comment, I don't know the circumstances but then neither do you I suspect

It all seems to perfect

Its getting to a point here in Europe, if the goverments wont protect the people then the people will find someone who will

originally posted by: everyone
a reply to: DerBeobachter

People becoming more and more "USA" here, everyone celebrates when attackers were shot to death and demand it,

eh... and you don't ?

Eh, no, because i don´t want to put myself on the same low level as the terrorists, attackers, lunatics, whatevers.
To show somebody that it´s wrong to kill, you can´t kill him. That´s nothing else than vengeance, at least does it look like this.

And then there is that informations thing.

I would rather celebrate if they catch him and get informations out of him. And then catching some of the higher ranked persons behind him. But therefore it has to be really a "planned by "IS" attack", with evidence for it. And not a lunatic, a person running amok that paints himself an "IS" flag and shouts Allahu Akbar, as they shouted Ho...Ho...Ho Chi Minh some decades ago. Shouting Allahu Akbar has become a brand of some uprising or lunatic people with no brains.

And somebody said that it isn´t easy to catch someone alive. The SEK had this 17 year old surrounded, as news report here now. He had NO firearms or explosives or anything like that. I don´t know how much men a team of the SEK is, but i gues around at least 5 or 6 persons. Well trained, some of "our best", as we are told.

If a whole team of "police special forces" can´t defang a 17years old boy, armed with an axe and a knife, without killing him, then we all have to pray that never ever a real, coordinated terror "IS" attack will happen here, because then we are lost. Or would they call the Luftwaffe/Airforce to bomb them terrorists out? Would leave no living witnesses too.

I am out again, just forgot my sun lotion, it´s really hot here today, i`ll be back later!

a reply to: DerBeobachter

I think you have brought up some very valid points that people outside of Germany would be unaware of. It's been a very long time since I've heard reference to SEK and as you say their presence nearby does seem "coincidental".

Without going all "nutter" this does bear more looking into.
You've laid out a thoughtful thread and much information that non-german speakers would miss.

When news of the attack first happened my first thoughts were the young man had mental health issues. It's very easy to paint every incident as IS, when as you point out a youngster can have a background so divergent from their new life they just can't handle it and the easiest thing to do is go out in a blaze. Here it's called suicide by cop.

As I said in another thread an Ax attack screams of a LOT of pent up rage. I think that is going to be lost in all the IS talk. Not all refugees are sleeper cells, some may very much like what I recall from conflicts in african nations who arrive with severe cases of PTSD that go left untreated and culturally with no support.

I'm not a "do-gooder" with her head in the sand, just think as you do there is very much more to the situation than we are being told and painting every incident with the same brush is just too easy.

a reply to: Raggedyman


People often respond with arguments similar to your own that you made here but as you realize now that that is way to easy to say and demand of people in such situations. There are certain factors that most people never take into consideration because they have not experienced and never before have experienced those details. Things like that is the very reason why people in squads like thee SEK are trained for it. It is not just being trained to know how to point a gun. They are trained to know what to expect and what the best course of action is and it mostly based on priorities.


Priority N.1

Keep yourself and your team alive.
You are not saving anyone if you and your team die or get wounded

Priority Nr.2
Keep any potential civilian victims to a minimum at all cost

And then finally priority nr. 3
Take the perpetrator in alive if possible. If not then at least Nr.1 and Nr.2 have been met as best as possible.




I also do not need to know the exact surroundings. I know he attacked 20 people with a axe in a enclosed public transport vehicle and that he was trying to get away from the scene. These people who were there follow these rules and prioritize them based on split second changes in situations like that. They do not have the time to have a gathering to discuss the morale's of either themselves or the attacker. Theirs and innocent lives come first, no unneeded potential risks even have to be taken until the first 2 points can be achieved.

a reply to: DerBeobachter

Eh, no, because i don´t want to put myself on the same low level as the terrorists, attackers, lunatics, whatevers.

So you would take the risk of trying to aim and fire at the smallest parts of his body, his flailing limbs while he is increasing his distance between you and him to you allowing him to run into more potential victims. And all because of that "holier then thou" attitude you display here.


I for one am glad for all the people in the vicinity of this heinous event that it was trained personal who were handling the situation and not you.

a reply to: DerBeobachter

To show somebody that it´s wrong to kill, you can´t kill him. That´s nothing else than vengeance, at least does it look like this.

Not wanting to sound insulting but i dont see any other way after seeing you say that because that is just one of the densest, ridiculous

argument you could ever make in a situation like this.

Answer me this:

Did they take him down out of vengeance or to make sure he could not harm more people after running away?

I can tell you for a fact that the person who took him down had no personal issues to settle with him. The only thing he did was make sure he would not get away and make more victims.

a reply to: everyone

Well, *if* there was a SEK out to get the attacker, they should have a couple dozens of ways available to them to tackle an untrained 17 year old.

Those are Germany's police special forces, and he had nothing but a knife and an axe.

Even a normal police officer should have been able to shoot a non-lethal shot. But alas, it should not be...

a reply to: everyone

I would expect people like you, no offence, to respond in the way you did
Shoot to kill immediately
There is no information on circumstance and you are all gun ho
I don't get that, shoot to kill should be the last resort

It's a pity we don't know the circumstances, boy shot dead, no information, motive except IS, bit to simple for me

Hi ho hi ho it's of to war we go

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: everyone
a reply to: DerBeobachter

People becoming more and more "USA" here, everyone celebrates when attackers were shot to death and demand it,

eh... and you don't ?

Do you understand the idea of catching a person alive for information, is that not simple to understand
To many Clint Eastwood movies

I have to believe in due process. we lose everything if we arbitrarily enact verdicts. But I say information is never gained in a reliable way from extremists. Incarceration leads to howls of mistreatment, while imprisoned without any substantive charge. I don't condone it by any means, but terrorists will eat explosives if caught in the midst of a situation.. either by those who can, or themselves..

Problem reaction solution! It's so obvious what's going on here with the staged immigration and now the isis attacks. Prepare for more loss of liberty, and a new war against the new Al Queda boogeyman.

a reply to: ManFromEurope

Absolutely agree.

Any BFE/+ or SEK are trained in ATK-style hand-to-hand combat and should be more than capable to disarm a teenager and turn him into a sobbing pulp.
They also had him cornered and controlled and were still ordered to resort to "finale Bekämpfung".

This is VERY worrying.