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The Law and the Prophets according to Jesus

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posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 04:37 PM
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Book of Matthew

I noticed lately a debate exists between some New Testament students over the status of the Law. Some feel it was abolished and fulfilled by Jesus but are not clear what this means. Others feel quite strong that the Law is not abolished because after all, Jesus was clear he was not trying and was in fact fulfilling it. So what is being fulfilled? And how?

I believe that the problem lie in a lack of knowledge of what "the Law" means. Simply put, every time Jesus says Law in Matthew (except for in-law) you could just say Torah.

Torah is the Law. It is the first 5 books of the OT. Let me show you a few instances where this makes a passage make sense.

Matthew 5:17 The Law and the Prophets

"Do not think I have come to abolish the Torah or Prophets."

I put in Torah because it is proper. He is talking about the scriptures, not what our modern conception of law is at all but the Torah and the Prophets.

He is fulfilling the Torah and the Prophets and has no good reason to abolish the books that spoke of his coming. The whole issue about Law is a misunderstanding because it is not our concept of law so we interpret it wrong.

Jews today follow the Torah and Prophets and a minority even outright reject the Talmud and the modern state of Israel and Zionism. It never was and never will be abolished, the Torah, it is sacred.

Matthew 7:12 the Golden Rule

"In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the Torah and the Prophets."

The next verse is about the narrow gate and that there are few who will find it. This is fitting because the Torah and the OT in general has a violent plot and it is tough to read it and think this is a loving God. It is only the few who understand that this is not a real depiction of God the Father and in Jesus we are revealed that the Father is kind and merciful and the Torah and Prophets preserve truths for the seeker to find. In Mythology.

Matthew 11:13 "law (Torah) and Prophets.."

Mt. 12:5; 22:36; 22:40; 23:23 all speak of the law and should say Torah. I doubt that the Greek reads Pentateuch every time it says law but it doesn't even have to because either way it is pretty obvious that the Torah is what is meant Unfortunately people think either law of Moses or ten commandments when the Torah is meant and it confuses people from what I have seen.

The ten commandments are easy and those sins forgivable upon repentance just by asking or whatever you believe personally is the proper mode of repentance. Some are by the book baptism for forgiveness by water (Spirit, fire being the other baptism) but any sin after that it seems to me a matter of asking for forgiveness and receiving it, as I see it at least.

But the debate about law is actually not about rules of law, but the Torah accompanied by the books of the Prophets and not just the ten commandments or the law of Moses.


edit on 18-7-2016 by Shahada because: fix something




posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 05:05 PM
link   

originally posted by: Shahada
Book of Matthew

I noticed lately a debate exists between some New Testament students over the status of the Law. Some feel it was fulfilled by Jesus but are not clear what this means. Others feel quite strong that the Law is not a abolished because after all, Jesus was clear he was not trying and was in fact fulfilling it.

I believe that the problem lie in a lack of knowledge of what "the Law" means. Simply put, every time Jesus says Law in Matthew (except for in-law) you could just say Torah.


This is quite simple to understand. It is clearly stated in the Old Testament;

[QUOTE]
"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.[/]" -- KJV, Jeremiah 31:33

"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." -- KJV, Jeremiah 31:34
[END QUOTE]

That's the fulfillment of the Law.

Jesus came with the Law already written in his "inward parts".


[QUOTE]
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of
grace and truth.
" -- KJV, John|1:1-14
[END QUOTE]

So, no need to Teach the Torah to those who have the Law already inside them.

When Jesus came, not everybody had the law in their "inward parts". So, many could not understand what he was saying.

[QUOTE]
"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." -- KJV, John 8:43
[END QUOTE]

Those that had the law inside them, immediately recognized the words of Jesus as the truth, and followed him. Those that did not have the law inside them, could not understand what Jesus was saying, and thought he was nuts. They still needed to continue to learn from the written Torah.

Jesus didn't come to teach anybody anything. He came to "gather up" the chosen into his fold. By hearing the word, they automatically came to join the flock. That's why the gospel is preached. To call out the ones from the multitudes. It's not a conversion. You can't convert anybody to Christianity by the sword, like Islam does. It's not the sword that converts them, nor fear of the sword, but God himself does the conversions.


So, the law is not abolished.

For those who have the law in their inward parts, no more instruction is required, and the Torah is superfluous.

For those who do not have the law in their inward parts, the Torah is still relevant.



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 06:29 PM
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originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: Shahada
Book of Matthew

I noticed lately a debate exists between some New Testament students over the status of the Law. Some feel it was fulfilled by Jesus but are not clear what this means. Others feel quite strong that the Law is not a abolished because after all, Jesus was clear he was not trying and was in fact fulfilling it.

I believe that the problem lie in a lack of knowledge of what "the Law" means. Simply put, every time Jesus says Law in Matthew (except for in-law) you could just say Torah.


This is quite simple to understand. It is clearly stated in the Old Testament;


By the Old Testament you mean the Torah and the books of the Prophets, etc? Because it is simple and I am saying that law means Torah. But let's see what you got for us.




"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.[/]" -- KJV, Jeremiah 31:33

"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." -- KJV, Jeremiah 31:34


That's the fulfillment of the Law.

Jesus came with the Law already written in his "inward parts".



"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of
grace and truth.
" -- KJV, John|1:1-14


So, no need to Teach the Torah to those who have the Law already inside them.


Teach? Some things you can not teach and the Torah or "Law" as you say, is one. We have the doctrine of "just believe in Jesus and your fine " for them.

Torah means Law and teaching Torah is teaching what you are calling Law. Plus teaching wasn't my point, it was that the law means Torah and that fulfilling the Torah doesn't abolish it. And that few understand.



When Jesus came, not everybody had the law in their "inward parts". So, many could not understand what he was saying.


Inward parts? lol. People still don't understand what he said and it is difficult to say exactly what happened but to this day a minority within a minority are real disciples. Not Christians with dogma and myths but disciples of the Way.




"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." -- KJV, John 8:43


Those that had the law inside them, immediately recognized the words of Jesus as the truth, and followed him. Those that did not have the law inside them, could not understand what Jesus was saying, and thought he was nuts. They still needed to continue to learn from the written Torah.


You actually invented that decree yourself. They weren't inferior so stuck on Torah. You think that remaining true to Judaism was a sin and a sign of a lack of understanding. Just know that is your misunderstanding and not true in any way. You are trying to make it an anti virtue to continue in OT studies, how foolishness envelops...



Jesus didn't come to teach anybody anything.


I am sorry, least true statement ever. Teaching was his every word and he came to introduce the Kingdom of God you need to grasp that is here and now with the Blessings of the Spirit Wisdom is the exact reason for Christ.

The human sacrifice angle wasn't thought up until way after his death and wasn't made church doctrine until Constantine and is a pagan concept. Far from Jesus' (a man against animal sacrifice) mission was it to be a scapegoat.

Scapegoating is a sacrifice to Azazel the demon-god that atones for the sins of Israel by pushing a goat off a cliff.

I doubt Jesus wanted to be a scapegoat sacrifice and trying to profit eternally off his death is a satanic cult practice gone mainstream in Catholicism then Protestantism etc.





He came to "gather up" the chosen into his fold. By hearing the word, they automatically came to join the flock. That's why the gospel is preached. To call out the ones from the multitudes. It's not a conversion. You can't convert anybody to Christianity by the sword, like Islam does. It's not the sword that converts them, nor fear of the sword, but God himself does the conversions.


So, the law is not abolished.

For those who have the law in their inward parts, no more instruction is required,


Inward parts again?

I hate rules and laws myself.

But Torah is a good read, so is the rest of the Tanakh. It is scripture, not meant to be read like history is but to be interpreted properly in as many ways as possible.

I don't need Laws as I let the Spirit guide me. But Torah is the first part of the Bible formerly thought to have been written by Moses, and calling those Books Law is misleading to an American in 2016 because we don't have theocracy (except Utah) and it just means the Pentateuch.


Learn the difference between Torah, the law of Moses and the ten commandments.

Then reexamine your statement "Jesus didn't come to teach anything" after you realize that a parable is a way of teaching and all the Messiah did was teach.

Teaching is easy when you have a student. But if you think that Jesus didn't come to teach anything you are not paying attention to his story.

He was the only Teacher, everyone else in the New Testament is filler. Those desperate letters of Saul who I think had DID and the Pseudepigrapha of Peter and John.

Other than James and Jesus the New Testament teaches nothing but nonsense about Apocalypse and dragons and beasts, please.

The words of Christ are the New Testament.
edit on 18-7-2016 by Shahada because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 07:22 PM
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originally posted by: Shahada

You actually invented that decree yourself. They weren't inferior so stuck on Torah. You think that remaining true to Judaism was a sin and a sign of a lack of understanding. Just know that is your misunderstanding and not true in any way. You are trying to make it an anti virtue to continue in OT studies, how foolishness envelops...


I didn't use words like "inferior".

I said, Jesus came to call out those with the law in their inward parts. The LORD said he created both types of people. Those with and without the law in their innards.

Those with the law in their innards don't need to read the Torah.

Those without the law inside them, need to read the Torah, from which they learn "intellectually" about the law.

When Jesus came, he complained the Pharisees were only going through the motions of following the law in the Torah, but actually didn't understand the intent behind the prescriptions found in those scriptures. In Hebrew the word Torah might mean law. But, in fact the Torah is just a bunch of stories, from which the student has to "dig out" the law. The Pharisees dug out and practiced the rituals, without understanding what law was embodied in the rituals.






I am sorry, least true statement ever. Teaching was his every word and he came to introduce the Kingdom of God you need to grasp that is here and now with the Blessings of the Spirit Wisdom is the exact reason for Christ.


Well the word "teach" does appear in the New Testament. But, nobody could learn anything from Jesus. What Jesus knew, he knew because he was special. The only people that could understand, were those that were already born with the law inside them. So, Jesus' teaching was merely preaching using parables that only those who were chosen could grasp. It wasn't the kind of teaching that anybody could listen to and learn how to be a Christian.

[QUOTE]
"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?" -- KJV, Matthew 13:10

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." -- KJV, Matthew 13:11
[END QUOTE]

So, basically, Jesus stood up in front of the multitudes and "taught" them in parables. This special kind of "teaching" is not really teaching at all.

Imagine if your school teacher taught you all your subjects in parables. What would you learn ?

Nothing you did not already know.

That's the basic idea.

Only those who had the law inside them, could correctly interpret the parable. They are able to do this because the ambiguity is disambiguated by their internal bias.

The remainder of the multitudes remain confused.

They learnt nothing.

Whereas, when a teacher tries to teach, he explains things simply, so that even the weakest mind could understand.

Jesus teaching was just preaching to the saved.





edit on 18-7-2016 by AMPTAH because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 07:43 PM
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a reply to: Shahada

You do not understand either.

The spoken/written law is The Torah and is the Word (Yeshua). The Law of Moses is a summation of The Torah.

What people, you included, are failing to grasp is that the Word (The Body) is meant to lead you to conception of the Law, who is Father. Who is Father? He is the conception of the Spirit.

That is what Jesus taught. He was and is and did fulfill the Law.

Look at it like this:
These words lead you to my awareness of my will.

Word is Jesus
Awareness is Father
Will is the Spirit.

What Jesus was teaching is that he, as the Word, leads you to Father, who is the conception of the Spirit.

The Word was never about following the Word by the letter. The Word has always been about leading you to conception of Spiritual Law.

And that is what Christians are told to do: live by the Spirit. Why? Because there is no law against it. The Spirit is the Law which Father is translating as Yeshua. Just like these words here are meant to lead you to my conception of my will, so too is Yeshua to the Spirit of the Law. To Follow the Way is to follow the words to conception of the Spirit. Conception of the Spirit is Father...

Just like I am giving you my words/body here so you may eat of my body and have conception of my spirit, that is what Jesus is.

And Jesus is not a scapegoat. We are the scapegoat and he is the sacrificial lamb. He took our sins upon him, and in doing so, he fulfilled the law on our behalf. He fulfilled the law for those who would take him in.


AMPTAH fix your post! Good grief with the syntax error.
edit on 7/18/2016 by Bleeeeep because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 07:54 PM
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originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: Shahada

You actually invented that decree yourself. They weren't inferior so stuck on Torah. You think that remaining true to Judaism was a sin and a sign of a lack of understanding. Just know that is your misunderstanding and not true in any way. You are trying to make it an anti virtue to continue in OT studies, how foolishness envelops...


I didn't use words like "inferior".


I did, and it was appropriate and you are the one who made it sound as if studying Torah was for the weak. Which is what someone who can't penetrate its veil would say in frustration.



I said, Jesus came to call out those with the law in their inward parts. The LORD said he created both types of people. Those with and without the law in their innards.

Those with the law in their innards don't need to read the Torah.


I don't think you understand that the Torah has Wisdom in it and no matter what kind of heart you have it isn't need/don't need issue.

It is a does/doesn't benefit from Wisdom issue and has nothing to do with law as we understand law. 2000 years has people lost in translation I'm afraid that you aren't born with the words of the Torah in your mind and it sound like you are making a virtue of laziness and the chosen ones fraud.



Those without the law inside them, need to read the Torah, from which they learn "intellectually" about the law.

When Jesus came, he complained the Pharisees were only going through the motions of following the law in the Torah, but actually didn't understand the intent behind the prescriptions found in those scriptures. In Hebrew the word Torah might mean law. But, in fact the Torah is just a bunch of stories, from which the student has to "dig out" the law. The Pharisees dug out and practiced the rituals, without understanding what law was embodied in the rituals.


Actually that isn't quite accurate and the NT isn't a historical depiction of the Pharisees who were a seperatist movement and not the wicked people Catholic propaganda has made you believe. They were instrumental in the Messianic movements in Judea and had great leaders like Gamaliel who was practically closet Christian. I digress.




Well the word "teach" does appear in the New Testament. But, nobody could learn anything from Jesus.


I have learned much from Jesus.



What Jesus knew, he knew because he was special. The only people that could understand, were those that were already born with the law inside them. So, Jesus' teaching was merely preaching using parables that only those who were chosen could grasp. It wasn't the kind of teaching that anybody could listen to and learn how to be a Christian.


"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?" -- KJV, Matthew 13:10

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." -- KJV, Matthew 13:11


So, basically, Jesus stood up in front of the multitudes and "taught" them in parables. This special kind of "teaching" is not really teaching at all.

Imagine if your school teacher taught you all your subjects in parables. What would you learn ?

Nothing you did not already know.

That's the basic idea.

Only those who had the law inside them, could correctly interpret the parable. They are able to do this because the ambiguity is disambiguated by their internal bias.

The remainder of the multitudes remain confused.

They learnt nothing.

Whereas, when a teacher tries to teach, he explains things simply, so that even the weakest mind could understand.

Jesus teaching was just preaching to the saved


Preaching to the saved was the only teaching Jesus did?

You are confused, he came specifically for the sick, not the "already saved."

"Saved" is a cult myth and doesn't exist in terms of going to heaven, chosen ones or the creepy fools who swear they are the only ones who understand.

I guarantee that they are borderline personality disorder chosen one complexed sociopaths and that nobody is saved because they thought a mans death was profitable to them eternally.

Not chosen. Or saved.
edit on 18-7-2016 by Shahada because: fix



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 08:06 PM
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originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: Shahada

You do not understand either.


This ought to be good!!!



The spoken/written law is The Torah and is the Word (Yeshua). The Law of Moses is a summation of The Torah.

What people, you included,


But not you, you know what the "truth" is. I love this. I think I understand just fine but you go ahead and tell us what you think



are failing to grasp is that the Word (The Body) is meant to lead you to conception of the Law, who is Father. Who is Father? He is the conception of the Spirit.


Word does not mean body.

Word comes from Logos in Greek.

Philo of Alexandria created a philosophy of Judaism where the Logos (word or reason) was the first born of God.

Christianity copied it. No divine revelation about Jesus but a knockoff of a long dead (AD 50) Jewish Philosopher whose work survives to this day.



That is what Jesus taught. He was and is and did fulfill the Law.


Well, Philo, but ok.



Look at it like this:
These words lead you to my awareness of my will.

Word is Jesus
Awareness is Father
Will is the Spirit.

What Jesus was teaching is that he, as the Word, leads you to Father, who is the conception of the Spirit.

The Word was never about following the Word by the letter. The Word has always been about leading you to conception of Spiritual Law.

And that is what Christians are told to do: live by the Spirit. Why? Because there is no law against it. The Spirit is the Law which Father is translating as Yeshua. Just like these words here are meant to lead you to my conception of my will, so too is Yeshua to the Spirit of the Law. To Follow the Way is to follow the words to conception of the Spirit. Conception of the Spirit is Father...

Just like I am giving you my words/body here so you may eat of my body and have conception of my spirit, that is what Jesus is.

And Jesus is not a scapegoat. We are the scapegoat and he is the sacrificial lamb. He took our sins upon him, and in doing so, he fulfilled the law on our behalf. He fulfilled the law for those who would take him in.


AMPTAH fix your post! Good grief with the syntax error.



I couldn't finish because what person are you to tell me I lack understanding when you lack awareness AND understanding and just like telling people you understand.

How cool.



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 08:20 PM
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So far I have been told that I don't "understand" when I am saying a very simple thing.

The conversation and debates about the law are muddled arguments because people think that the Law is something different than was said, which is the Torah/Pentateuch.

To us it is scripture and not Law. People think that it refers to a change in the rules of the universe and it is not. Nothing changed with God.

Jesus was a sage, a wise man, a teacher of righteousness and a Prophet.

His teachings were about the Kingdom of God and it being in us and here as well as outside and above.

The Kingdom of God is a state of mind, enlightenment. Realization of your own divine heritage and not a destined for sin fallen worthless human but a member of The Father's Family. Everyone.

And the people who are on the little understood narrow path are the few that realize that it is not pious to profit off human sacrifice and that Jesus is not a scapegoat.

That is the teachings of someone who had no knowledge of Christ and wanted his own church so made the easiest possible religion in the world:

Believe what I say that Christ died for your sins and you are saved.

Not a hard sell at all, I can see why so many people joined.

To bad it is not the Gospel and is not taught by the Messiah or the early ante Nicene church.

The Gospel is the words of Jesus. Understanding them is understanding yourself and the first step on the path to knowing.
edit on 18-7-2016 by Shahada because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 08:36 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH

There are things you can do to help make the scriptures easier for you to understand so you don't get frustrated and say that you are saved and don't need to learn them.

Because you might want to know about your own religion if you believe your soul is at stake. Faith is a thought and is not a virtue in itself, it is the fruits of Faith that are virtuous.



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 08:41 PM
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Its simple
Do all things in love
Laws were made for man not man for the laws
Under the new covenant, for those in Christ, only for those in Christ, the law is love
Love God, love each other, do everything in love
The OT laws stand, they are what God will judge the world by, as I understand



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 08:55 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

It is simple if you make it simple but simple isn't doing the world much good.

All too often people use "it's simple" as an excuse not to learn what Jesus taught, which is actually quite sophisticated and to call the Messiah's teachings simple is factually incorrect.

He himself said that they were multi layered and not everyone would understand.


Those are the people who cling to the more simple doctrine in the epistles that don't fit so you have two religions in the New Testament, the Gospel and the scapegoat religion of that Roman collaboroator Saul who was a murderer and story teller.

Not so simple, actually.
edit on 18-7-2016 by Shahada because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 09:02 PM
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originally posted by: Shahada

I did, and it was appropriate and you are the one who made it sound as if studying Torah was for the weak. Which is what someone who can't penetrate its veil would say in frustration.


Let me ask you a simple question.

In the scriptures, Jesus says the following;

[QUOTE]
"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." -- KJV, John 5:19
[END QUOTE]

Why would Jesus do exactly as the Father would?

Why not some "innovation", change, improvement, or independent action of his own?

[QUOTE]
"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. " -- KJV, John 5:30
[END QUOTE]

Why does Jesus say he can't do anything of his own self?

Where is Jesus' "free will" ?

The first requirement for there to be a need for "Wisdom" is to have "Free Will".

If you have free will, then you have a choice to make, and wisdom directs the best choice.

But, what good is all the Wisdom of the Torah, if you have no free will?

What need have you for Wisdom, when the law is written in your inward parts?

The Bee knows how to go to find the flower, yet the Bees do not go to school to be taught this wisdom.

It's in their inward parts.



edit on 18-7-2016 by AMPTAH because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 09:21 PM
link   

originally posted by: Shahada
a reply to: Raggedyman

It is simple if you make it simple but simple isn't doing the world much good.

All too often people use "it's simple" as an excuse not to learn what Jesus taught, which is actually quite sophisticated and to call the Messiah's teachings simple is factually incorrect.

He himself said that they were multi layered and not everyone would understand.


Those are the people who cling to the more simple doctrine in the epistles that don't fit so you have two religions in the New Testament, the Gospel and the scapegoat religion of that Roman collaboroator Saul who was a murderer and story teller.

Not so simple, actually.


Ahh, so another gnostic, I thought your post was convoluted
Sorry, I like Paul and his teachings, his letters were very good

Have at it, we disagree on the simplicity of the gospel message, Jesus said love, Paul preached love, do all things in love, God is love, be accountable to God in love, love covers many sins, et al

Believe what you want

Interesting quote I just read
[QUOTE]
"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." -- KJV, John 5:19
[END QUOTE]

and this as well

QUOTE]
"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. " -- KJV, John 5:30
[END QUOTE]

Thanks Ampt



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 09:32 PM
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originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: Shahada

I did, and it was appropriate and you are the one who made it sound as if studying Torah was for the weak. Which is what someone who can't penetrate its veil would say in frustration.


Let me ask you a simple question.

In the scriptures, Jesus says the following;

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." -- KJV, John 5:19

Why would Jesus do exactly as the Father would?


Is this really a question?

Because the Father is his GOD. Why wouldn't he?



Why not some "innovation", change, improvement, or independent action of his own?


Like making day baptism a one time remission of sins that bestows the gifts of the Spirit?

This is an "innovation, change, improvement and an semi-independent action of his own."




"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. " -- KJV, John 5:30


Why does Jesus say he can't do anything of his own self?


Because he can't, but he is allowed to do MUCH.




Where is Jesus' "free will" ?


In the desert with the Satan for 40 and 40.



The first requirement for there to be a need for "Wisdom" is to have "Free Will".


If that's even true, requirement fulfilled. Perfect is the word, blameless WITH free will is he the Messiah.



If you have free will, then you have a choice to make, and wisdom directs the best choice.


Hardly ever is this so.



But, what good is all the Wisdom of the Torah, if you have no free will?


Irrelevant, we all do and Jesus did. How do you not know this?



What need have you for Wisdom, when the law is written in your inward parts?


You have used that phrase too much , inward parts. Which parts ?



The Bee knows how to go to find the flower, yet the Bees do not go to school to be taught this wisdom.

It's in their inward parts.




Bees have hive minds and die if they attack you and all serve one mistress.

Bees are not wise, I don't want to be like a bee.

You are sounding like an advocate for robotic behavior.

I am like the wind instead my friend.


edit on 18-7-2016 by Shahada because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 09:56 PM
link   

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Shahada
a reply to: Raggedyman

It is simple if you make it simple but simple isn't doing the world much good.

All too often people use "it's simple" as an excuse not to learn what Jesus taught, which is actually quite sophisticated and to call the Messiah's teachings simple is factually incorrect.

He himself said that they were multi layered and not everyone would understand.


Those are the people who cling to the more simple doctrine in the epistles that don't fit so you have two religions in the New Testament, the Gospel and the scapegoat religion of that Roman collaboroator Saul who was a murderer and story teller.

Not so simple, actually.


Ahh, so another gnostic, I thought your post was convoluted
Sorry, I like Paul and his teachings, his letters were very good


I think it is safe to say you don't know what Gnostic means, if you want to call me that or a Yazidi it doesn't make a difference to what I think, you know that right?

Calling me a Gnostic is saying that I know, so thanks but I don't know God, just what is written. And logical, reasonable, that kind of thing. I don't name my thoughts on God though so good luck figuring them out.



Have at it, we disagree on the simplicity


You only see the simple, we can't disagree on what you don't see or know.



of the gospel message, Jesus said love, Paul preached love, do all things in love, God is love, be accountable to God in love, love covers many sins, et al

Believe what you want

Interesting quote I just read


"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." -- KJV, John 5:19


We went over this already but thanks.



and this as well


"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. " -- KJV, John 5:30


Thanks Ampt


Same quote basically but again, thanks.

Simple is for the people that only hear the story but don't comprehend (like a parable) the deeper meaning.

I repeat, it doesn't make the world or people any better to make the profound "simple" because of a failure to comprehend but "have at it" is that what you say?



posted on Jul, 18 2016 @ 10:15 PM
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a reply to: Shahada

Actually, I am not a psychic, I assumed a gnostic as there are a few around
My apologies

Now we do disagree, on both Jesus and Paul, I can see that
as well as seeing the simple, I know Gods new covenant laws to christians, it is love, you can dismiss them, its my choice, please choose what you want to believe, I accept you are mature enough to make a decision best suited to yourself, no problem

Be like the wind, my foundation is the Rock itself



posted on Jul, 19 2016 @ 12:57 AM
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originally posted by: Shahada

Is this really a question?

Because the Father is his GOD. Why wouldn't he?


But Jesus' Father is our GOD too.

So, why don't we all do as Jesus and automatically follow God's Laws?

And I don't know what you really mean by "robotic". Don't we digest food robotically?

Doesn't our hearts pump blood robotically?

Doesn't our kidneys extract waste robotically?

I mean, most of our body is just a robotic machine doing the things God designed it to do.

So what if God's plan is to have us all experience the world like good well behaved robots for a period of time, before "the stone the builders rejected" is removed again, to give us free will, so we can then disobey the law and go astray in another period of time?

Is it better to have free will, which leads us to make wrong choices, for which we get punished?

Or is it better to have no free will, so we can't sin, and need not be punished, and we then experience pure joy and happiness being obedient children of God?

Obviously, God thought of everything.

There's a time and a season for everything under the sun.



posted on Jul, 19 2016 @ 09:21 AM
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a reply to: Shahada


Torah is the Law. It is the first 5 books of the OT. Let me show you a few instances where this makes a passage make sense.

As Moses presented the tablets of the Law to the twelve tribes, he had not as yet compiled Torah. How then could the five books of Torah have been the law before they were written? Are you confusing law with statutes?



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