Not a Believer, But Jesus was a Great Teacher

a reply to: BO XIAN

The Physical Resurrection is crucial.

Yes, I believe that is true for Christianity. I believe that people who do not believe in physical resurrection should not call themselves Christian. And especially if that resurrection is not in some way tied to "salvific works of Christ".

Thankfully more than 500 saw him alive after the Resurrection.

We can have confidence in the historical record on that score.

According to Paul.

Eight Witnesses
The Eight Witnesses were one of the two groups of witnesses who made a statement stating that they had seen the golden plates which Joseph Smith said was his source material for the Book of Mormon. The other group of Book of Mormon witnesses who said they saw the plates are called the Three Witnesses.

Your choices are interesting because you quoted where he said those who called others fools are in danger of hell fire then you quoted where he himself called people fools. Was that intentional?

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Was that intentional.

Yes.

Before this gets to heavy, I'd like to post a music video that I like.

Now I can watch it here without having to see commercials first on youtube.

a reply to: pthena

That is exactly correct.

If I may ask, what do you think of the scriptures? God breathed or a collection of writings from mostly wise writers? Or even better, a hybrid of the two?

a reply to: pthena

Dr Luke affirmed such things in Acts.

a reply to: CJCrawley

Nonsense.

Your post merely illustrates the very flawed nature of your own research.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

To elucidate:

There is a scene in Neil Gaiman's book American Gods in which several of the American iterations of the deities were meeting to form a game plan. Jesus is walking around disconnected from the situation. One of the deities says to another, something like, "Sh** never seems to stick to him."

There are several reasons, as I see it, for people to say Jesus was a wise teacher or even enlightened sage.

1) It has been said so many times that it's taken as a truism.

2) People say it in order to avoid contention with others around them.

3) They are trying to sell something, and using a common "truism" in order to enhance their own credibility.

Under number 3 there are people who use a fallacious tactic in order to smear the Apostle Paul. There's a verse in Genesis that says Benjamin is a wolf. Jesus said something about wolves. Therefore Jesus is calling Paul a wolf.

Completely ridiculous chain of dis(logic).

In contrast, the verses I quote about saying fool is much more logical. But that's only in contrast. I really don't think the various sayings of Jesus put him in danger of hellfire (whatever that is).

My view is, that if Christians want to use Paul, that's fine, as long as they don't presuppose that everyone considers him authoritative. I really don't think that Christianity as Christianity can be without him.

So my biggest problem with people saying they love Jesus and hate Paul is that they are really just trying to sell something and I'm not inclined to buy.

Now that the heavy is out of the way. I hope people still feel willing to share.

a reply to: Aedaeum

what do you think of the scriptures? God breathed or a collection of writings from mostly wise writers?

As I was reading The Golden Compass by Philip Pullman (alleged atheist), god-ness seemed to be in it, to me at least.

ETA

I just looked up Philip Pullman. A book that I wasn't aware of:

The Good Man Jesus and the Scoundrel Christ
is a novel by Philip Pullman. Published in 2010 by Canongate Books,[1] as part of the Canongate Myth Series, it retells the story of Jesus as if he were two people, brothers, "Jesus" and "Christ," with contrasting personalities; Jesus being a moral and godly man, and his brother Christ a calculating figure who wishes to use Jesus' legacy to found a powerful Church

Sounds like an attempt being made similar to Frank Yerby's Judas My Brother, which Yerby himself was not satisfied with. Yerby considered his book An Odor of Sanctity (1965) to be more what he wanted to get across. I recommend An Odor of Sanctity quite highly.

Here's how one person felt about it, at amazon

I Have lived though the adventures and have been reluctant to put the book away even at three in the morning.I know nothing about writing but this book has taken me through a wide range of emotions from actual tears to great joy. This for me is Frank yearby's best work. My copy is old and the pages are brown now. Where can I get a new copy - beg borrow or steal
www.amazon.com...

a reply to: pthena

In reading the descriptions of these books. They are portrayed as works of grand fiction...how is it possible to see God in fiction? Or are you implying that these are not merely works of fiction?

a reply to: pthena

Hi hi...just got here myself - and it will be a brief stay - just wanted to let you know I have some stuff to add....

if interested, you can click on my profile and check my last couple of posts in the "Ark" thread - listened to a good one today about the whole subject of whether he survived the crucifixion or not......

but yeah - his teachings were great - it's really too bad that so few are able to figure out that it's an intuitive thing, not a literal thing. We're all humans just like Jesus, his soul was simply more advanced, like Buddha and Krishna and other sages before him. They all say the same thing. And THAT is where the truth lies.

I'll be back later, friend (I'm so happy you're back on here now!)

a reply to: Aedaeum

Hi Aedaeum....
I just saw your post here, it caught my eye. Wasn't addressed to me, but here's how I'd respond:

I totally consider the Bible a work of fiction also - historical fiction through a lens of superstition and insular communities.

a reply to: Aedaeum

how is it possible to see God in fiction? Or are you implying that these are not merely works of fiction?

Imagine (or feel) a god or goddess who actually cares about people. Gifts are given. No two exactly alike. Some people paint to express the connection they feel. Some sculpt. Some sing. Some dance. Some bake cakes and pies. Some write fiction.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs
Thank you.

I will read yours, if you read mine. Please read the whole thread.

a reply to: BO XIAN

The Physical Resurrection is crucial.

Indeed. It is the most important part. Without it, the entire premise falls apart.

Thankfully more than 500 saw him alive after the Resurrection.

This is "historical fiction" - with no hard evidence whatsoever.

We can have confidence in the historical record on that score.

Bo, with all due respect, I don't think that's the case. I just can't....

I admire your commitment to the idea - I just don't think it's truth. I think he survived and went back to where he'd been during his youth: India. He was trained as a Buddhist. He survived the crucifixion, with the aid of his friends and the centurion and Pilate as well - and left. Disappeared. Became a fugitive.

If he was seen around town (or in someone's dwelling or whatever) that's because he was physically still alive - 'doubting Thomas' you know - he touched the wounds. That was a physical still-the-same-guy Jesus....he got better. Some say the "vinegar" he received before "It is finished" was actually an anasthetic of some sort, rather like Juliet's potion.....

they took aloes into the tomb (with implicit permission), not embalming stuff. They 'broke him out' in the dead of night, and they escaped into wherever. Which was India.

That is what I believe actually happened. And even so, I believe he was an advanced soul - an ascended master, we say - who came back here to teach. Just like Buddha, Krishna, and others have done. And ever since I was a kid, I've 'known' that we are in school here....when we finally get our "doctorate", we can opt to come back to help out with the undergrads and masters, or we can go elsewhere.

That is what I believe in the very depths of my soul.
And that we have unseen guides and protective spirits or "angels".

When we die, we return to the ether for a while, hang out and decide with the counsel of others and our own planning what to do next. Then we either come back for another class, or don't for a while. But in the end, we all reach the same place. We all go home to the Divine Source.

We are all fractals of the Divine. Jesus just as much as you, or me. We're learning. Peace be with you.

a reply to: Klassified

The best thing Jesus ever said was his repeat of the golden rule.

Yes, and he was certainly not the first one to say it.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I appreciate the direct answer

a reply to: pthena

Now that I can understand. To see a gift in another person, knowing that it was by divine right, not an amount of human effort. There are a lot of gifted singers whom have that "spark" of God in their voice, so I definitely can relate.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I understand . . .

Too many of the scholars I respect have indicated otherwise very convincingly.

WHO MOVED THE STONE

JOSH MCDOWELL

LEE STROBEL

C.S. LEWIS.

a list of other atheists . . . etc.

imho, there's more than ample reason to believe the historical records in the Gospels.

I believe that The Deceiver has been long and skillfully concocting all manner of delusions, charades, alternative explanations etc. etc. etc.

I don't care to give any of them a shred of support.

Thanks for your kind tone.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Thankfully more than 500 saw him alive after the Resurrection.

This is "historical fiction" - with no hard evidence whatsoever.

Actually, it's the writing of Apostle Paul. His testimony. Some time in his travels he heard that. He repeats it.

The apostle Paul wrote generations before the gospels were written. As far as reliability goes for Christians, he is the most reliable source.