Daddy...Where does God come from?

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
But Croat and other that explanation doesn't make sense. it has no basis in any facts.Its no different from saying that im king of funky town. theres no proof no nothing.you're just making up stuff up to explain god. how hes not like all other matter. Please dont flame me, im only 13, and it makes me cry

I think the universe is pretty good evidence that theres a God

Or a big bang. all matter in one spot then explode. now expand and expand. so create the universe.

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
Or a big bang. all matter in one spot then explode. now expand and expand. so create the universe.

And what exactly created the big bang? Do the words "Let there be light" remind you of anything?

it isn't confusing, the universe is bounded by time... everything in the universe has some sort of time, maybe not measured at the same scale IE light years. Regardless, everything has time, everything in the Universe was once created. And by being created that means everything has a time line, and can be measured by time. So, God created Time. how long did it take before he created the universe? was asked. I replied it took him 0 seconds and infinite. 0 being the amount of time that would pass as we know it, and infinite being the amount of time he was at that one single point for. Then i said imagine a movie where people can stop time and walk around. That may have been what it was/is like for God. No time is actually passing as time is stopped, but you can move freely and do whatever you want. I know in reality that this is a very poor explanation of how God lives, and i'm sure it's not even close to the correct answer, but it is the best answer i can give that would ACTUALLY explain the Universe being created, because the big bang theory alone has way tooo many holes in it, like what created the very first matter that formed that star? That doesn't make sense, because it is bounded by rules of this universe, unlike God, and would have to have a beginning.

saint4god, God has been around as long as man was able to think and observe natural phenomena. Don't you think it's a bit odd how over time, as we become able to explain more and more, that deities play smaller and smaller roles in the world? Thousands of years ago, immortals caused storms, volcanic eruptions, lightning, seasons, they even directly intervened with humans and cause war and chaos. Then we began to see that all of this can be explained by natural, not supernatural, forces. Even the Hebrews saw YHWH as a vengeful being that caused plagues etc. Now we are much more advanced in science and knowledge and know that none of this has any basis in scientific fact. So far nothing going for all-powerful gods has been proven, but a lot has been disproven. Eventually society may throw out the idea of religion altogether and realize that maybe everything just is.

You don't need something to justify the beginning of the universe. It just is. "Anything that happens, happens. Anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again. It doesn't necessarily do it in chronological order, though."

Circular logic at its finest. The universe exists because the universe exists. That's the best explanation we have, it makes more sense than the overly complex "the universe exists because some deity (whom we will not bother to explain the origin of) got bored one day and decided to, in a period of about six days, or twenty-four hour periods as observed by ourselves, create the universe, Earth, and life in all its complexity without pre-planning or advisors, and did it all without natural processes, and in fact, there were no natural processes before this. After he did this he decided to chose a select group of people to reveal this to, and though they were polytheists at heart, they eventually accepted him as the one true creator, and then the god decided to muck things up again and sent a savior who would cause centuries of war later, and eventually spawn those people that come around at six in the morning asking 'Have you found Jesus yet?' when no one really cares. As humans began to learn things that didn't agree with this theory, we realized that this evidence against our religion must be forgeries placed by the devil to trick the non-believers who will spend eternity in hell because our god is jealous and arrogant. Send tithes to 662, Acacia Avenue, Anytown Amerika. Good night."

Sorry, got carried away. Hope I didn't offend you.

Originally posted by _BLiND_
Sure, the universe is huge, and alot of things are un-explained, but how does that explain a higher power? Just explains how much we don't know, still beleiving in fairytales.

Perhaps we should focus on the place that you live, namely, the Universe. How did that come about? The Big Bang, and where did the Big Bang come from? A random quark popping up in the middle of a vacuum of nothingness. After all, matter coming from nothing has been documented. But wait! We can't have an absolute vacuum in this universe because it will always be affected by the system.

So, maybe the universe doesn't exist either.

Originally posted by Ikku
You don't need something to justify the beginning of the universe. It just is. "Anything that happens, happens. Anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again. It doesn't necessarily do it in chronological order, though."

Circular logic at its finest. The universe exists because the universe exists. That's the best explanation we have, it makes more sense than the overly complex "the universe exists because some deity (whom we will not bother to explain the origin of) got bored one day and decided to, in a period of about six days, or twenty-four hour periods as observed by ourselves, create the universe, Earth, and life in all its complexity without pre-planning or advisors, and did it all without natural processes, and in fact, there were no natural processes before this.

Parsimony. I hate getting into those arguments: "who created life, created atoms, created the Universe," countered by "Who created God then?" Both sides end up saying at one point or another "it/God simply exists." I prefer the more parsimonious explaination.

You act as if the beginning of the universe is more simple than saying something beyond it created everything. We could go deeper into the explanation of the big bang and say see it is more complicated but we won't. However, if you actually watch life and it's synchronicity, you will see that some things are just too wierd to explain without there being a God.

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
...im king of funky town. theres no proof no nothing.

"Won't you take me to funky town?
I want to go to funky town now" *saint dances*

Sorry, had to get that out . If you can take me to funky town and people bow to you, doing everything you tell them to, then I'll consider you king of said place.

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
you're just making up stuff up to explain god.

Is it really fair to say just because YOU hadn't experienced it to say, "You're just making up stuff"? Wait wait, take the fingers off the keyboard and consider for a moment... Okay, now you can blast me.

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
how hes not like all other matter.

If God, by definition is eternal, then he would have no need to be confined by the laws of matter. God created all matter. Somedays he choses to work within the laws of it, some days not so much.

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
Please dont flame me, im only 13, and it makes me cry

Age is nothing, wisdom is everything. Drink Spirit.

Originally posted by Ikku
saint4god, God has been around as long as man was able to think and observe natural phenomena. Don't you think it's a bit odd how over time, as we become able to explain more and more, that deities play smaller and smaller roles in the world?

Oh contraire moon frere. God is playing a larger and larger role. The world is getting bigger (well, more-fuller as my chem. teacher in high school would say). We know stuff beyond our little floating ball in space. We know more rules of God's order (called 'science' for those who don't believe) and boy do those things get complicated. We have more answers yes, but now we have an even greater boat-load of more questions.

Originally posted by Ikku
Thousands of years ago, immortals caused storms, volcanic eruptions, lightning, seasons, they even directly intervened with humans and cause war and chaos. Then we began to see that all of this can be explained by natural, not supernatural, forces.

Those gods (small g) had no play in eternity and wisdom though. These are very, very complicated concepts. Bigger than thundercrackers I can assure.

Originally posted by Ikku
Even the Hebrews saw YHWH as a vengeful being that caused plagues etc.

He's not done yet. Hit up Revelation sometime. It's 'a comin again.

Originally posted by Ikku
Now we are much more advanced in science and knowledge and know that none of this has any basis in scientific fact. So far nothing going for all-powerful gods has been proven, but a lot has been disproven.

Of God? the big G? Toss me some examples and we'll examine.

Originally posted by Ikku
Eventually society may throw out the idea of religion altogether and realize that maybe everything just is.

I'll either be dead or the last believer standing then. If it is the path mankind chooses so be it, it's not for me to decide, only to offer to help those who are interested.

Originally posted by Ikku
You don't need something to justify the beginning of the universe.

Correct. The fact that we're here now is proof enough of God.

Originally posted by Ikku
It just is. "Anything that happens, happens. Anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Anything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again. It doesn't necessarily do it in chronological order, though."

Douglas Adams! Is that the HHGTTG or Mostly Harmless? I love Mostly Harmless, reading it again. I think it's the third time, then I'm going to read the books in reverse order to see if I can do my own 'reverse engineering' of the story. Great stuff, but wouldn't worship it as religious doctrine or scientific fact.

Originally posted by Ikku
Circular logic at its finest.

Doug was the master at it.

Originally posted by Ikku
The universe exists because the universe exists. That's the best explanation we have,

I know what you mean. Without God that's all anyone could possibly think.

Originally posted by Ikku
it makes more sense than the overly complex "the universe exists because some deity (whom we will not bother to explain the origin of) got bored one day and decided to, in a period of about six days, or twenty-four hour periods as observed by ourselves, create the universe, Earth, and life in all its complexity without pre-planning or advisors, and did it all without natural processes, and in fact, there were no natural processes before this. After he did this he decided to chose a select group of people to reveal this to, and though they were polytheists at heart, they eventually accepted him as the one true creator,

It was pre-planned. There were advisors (we). I can toss some quotes if supporting evidence is required. How do you know he went outside the natural process? This is a debate even amoung Christians. You're right, they were poly-theists at heart. Thank God He set us straight.

Originally posted by Ikku
and then the god decided to muck things up again and sent a savior

Dude, WE were the ones mucking things up. That's what the whole Old Testament is about. Time and time again us screwing it up knowingly! Jesus was the last nail in the board to get the train back on track. Bam! Success.

Originally posted by Ikku
who would cause centuries of war later, and eventually spawn those people that come around at six in the morning asking 'Have you found Jesus yet?'

Yeah, I'm not a fan of this practice. I know for a fact it has driven some people away.

Originally posted by Ikku
when no one really cares. As humans began to learn things that didn't agree with this theory, we realized that this evidence against our religion must be forgeries placed by the devil to trick the non-believers who will spend eternity in hell because our god is jealous and arrogant.

Hehe, can't believe in God but can believe in the Devil. Isn't that hypocritical? Even the satanist I had as a friend KNEW the there was a God (and hated him too). Jesus did not point to himself, he pointed to God. He didn't say worship me, he said worship God. The definition of Christian is not: Worshipper of Christ.

Originally posted by Ikku
Send tithes to 662, Acacia Avenue, Anytown Amerika. Good night."

Ah yes, the offering. It's an OFFERING! If you do not want to give to the church, don't give - I don't care if you are Christian. If you do not want to give to the tsunami disaster relief, don't give - I don't care if the people around tell you you're a bad person. Should you give? Yes, but only if that's within your heart to do so. People don't need your cash, they need your heart.

Originally posted by Ikku
Sorry, got carried away. Hope I didn't offend you.

Not at all, sorry if I offended you.

That reminds me. Branching rant:
Fellow Christians, why are you easy to offend? Do you not remember the day before you knew God? Did people get all up in arms when you told them you did not believe? If you know in your heart what is true, why are you so angry?

Why do you shout to your brothers and sisters in the world, "You heathen! You heretic!" How can you speak to the people you're supposed to love in that way? Have you helped any hearts or minds find God by doing that? On top of that, do you so easily forget that you were at one time the same names you're calling others and how it made you feel?

The gospel is not 'the bad news', the gospel is the good news! Then let us go out and give the good word, rejoice in the truth, and for God's sake show a little compassion.

[edit on 21-1-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Oh contraire moon frere. God is playing a larger and larger role. The world is getting bigger (well, more-fuller as my chem. teacher in high school would say). We know stuff beyond our little floating ball in space. We know more rules of God's order (called 'science' for those who don't believe) and boy do those things get complicated. We have more answers yes, but now we have an even greater boat-load of more questions.

That's from a Christian perspective. I'm speaking from a perspective of mankind in general. I'm not separating your God from the gods of ages past just for the sake of this argument. There's no reason to.

Once upon a time, people believed that everything that happened was a direct result of the immortals mucking about. Lightning was Zeus when he was pissed, floods were Poseidon's vengeance against nonbelievers. Even wars, which I'm sure you know are from human nature, were blamed on the gods. The Trojan War, allegedly caused because a Trojan prince stole off with a Greek king's wife, was believed by the Greeks and Romans to have been caused by Eris, the goddess of discord, taking out some rage on the other gods for not inviting her to the wedding of Achilles' parents.

But we know that none of this is true. Lightning is caused by charged particles jumping from point A to point B in a fraction of a second, and wars are caused by men just generally being arrogant and hateful. More and more, things that were once explained supernaturally have explanations in science and nature. Why is your religion different from these ancient ones? Why is it that when science can disprove so many previous superstitions, you still think yours is infallible?

Originally posted by saint4god
Those gods (small g) had no play in eternity and wisdom though. These are very, very complicated concepts. Bigger than thundercrackers I can assure.

See my previous argument. I see no reason to separate a god from God.

Originally posted by saint4god
He's not done yet. Hit up Revelation sometime. It's 'a comin again.

I didn't say he was done. I'm saying they saw YHWH in the same light as many of their coexisting polytheistic religions, as a source of natural phenomena.

Originally posted by saint4God
Of God? the big G? Toss me some examples and we'll examine.

Once again, I am not drawing a line between the big guy and the big guys. God or god, I see them as similar concepts.

Originally posted by saint4God
Correct. The fact that we're here now is proof enough of God.

I don't see how. Our existence can be explained through science and nature, why is God necessary?

Originally posted by saint4God
Douglas Adams! Is that the HHGTTG or Mostly Harmless? I love Mostly Harmless, reading it again. I think it's the third time, then I'm going to read the books in reverse order to see if I can do my own 'reverse engineering' of the story. Great stuff, but wouldn't worship it as religious doctrine or scientific fact.

Mostly Harmless, yes.

I don't worship anything as religious doctrine. But I don't see why books such as his have to be purely for entertainment and nothing more. I can draw all kinds of parallels to life, the universe, and everything within his writings. He was a very scientific man and a lot of his work could be seen as opposition to religion, as he was as he said, a radical atheist.

Originally posted by saint4God
It was pre-planned. There were advisors (we). I can toss some quotes if supporting evidence is required.

Is that implying that there is more than one god, or that God created some advisors to help him? That's unnecessary for an omnipotent being. In fact creating anything seems unnecessary for this perfect force, but believe what you will.

What makes you say it was pre-planned? The Bible leads me to believe that God had no foresight when he first created everything, he just "winged it," so to speak. One day he just decided to build some stuff. And he later becomes displeased with his creation, which doesn't make any sense if it was all pre-planned. In fact it doesn't make any sense at all for an omniscient being to be displeased with his creation even if it wasn't pre-planned.

How do you know he went outside the natural process?

Because supposedly God created the natural processes. And fundamentalists take the Bible as literal truth. God said "Let there be light." A metaphor for the Big Bang? No, God just went -click-.

Originally posted by saint4God
Dude, WE were the ones mucking things up. That's what the whole Old Testament is about. Time and time again us screwing it up knowingly! Jesus was the last nail in the board to get the train back on track. Bam! Success.

An all-powerful God could've come up with something better. In fact, he could have just willed that we be set straight and it would have been done. No need to send a savior that not everyone will believe in. Again it seems like an unnecessary process for a god, simply because it's just a fabrication of early religious leaders who didn't take many things into account, or just ignored them hoping no one would think of it.

Originally posted by Ikku
Hehe, can't believe in God but can believe in the Devil.

I don't believe in the devil.

Jesus did not point to himself, he pointed to God. He didn't say worship me, he said worship God. The definition of Christian is not: Worshipper of Christ.

Don't most Christians accept Jesus as one with God? He is divine. In both testaments of the Bible it is said that God is worthy of worship. Christian doctrine says that Jesus is God. Jesus is worthy of worship.

If for some reason you do not think Jesus is God, I don't think you have been reading the Bible. Take a look at verses such as John 1:1 and Heb 1:8 (I'm looking at the KJV). Even the angels are said to worship Christ.

Originally posted by Ikku
That's from a Christian perspective.

True, true.

Originally posted by Ikku
I'm speaking from a perspective of mankind in general.

Oh okay.

Originally posted by Ikku
I'm not separating your God from the gods of ages past just for the sake of this argument. There's no reason to.

But there is reason to do so. We're talking about 2 entirely different types of god/God here. One cannot throw in God with 'one of the boys' because he's the one that's not like the others.

Originally posted by Ikku
Once upon a time, people believed that everything that happened was a direct result of the immortals mucking about. Lightning was Zeus when he was pissed, floods were Poseidon's vengeance against nonbelievers. Even wars, which I'm sure you know are from human nature, were blamed on the gods. The Trojan War, allegedly caused because a Trojan prince stole off with a Greek king's wife, was believed by the Greeks and Romans to have been caused by Eris, the goddess of discord, taking out some rage on the other gods for not inviting her to the wedding of Achilles' parents.

*nods* Right.

Originally posted by Ikku
But we know that none of this is true. Lightning is caused by charged particles jumping from point A to point B in a fraction of a second, and wars are caused by men just generally being arrogant and hateful. More and more, things that were once explained supernaturally have explanations in science and nature.

Which is why Greek Mythology is emphasised as mythology.

Originally posted by Ikku
Why is your religion different from these ancient ones?

Oh boy, where to start...Genesis? Gospels? The key word you have selected exceeds the maximum allotment of entries. Please narrow your search to a more refined criteria.

Originally posted by Ikku
Why is it that when science can disprove so many previous superstitions, you still think yours is infallible?

Because superstitions are false and can be proven so. 'Mine' is still infallible. You're anticipating the defeat of Christianity. I am anticipating it's victory. We're on opposite sides so to speak with our chips on the table. The difference is I know the 'house' owner.

Originally posted by Ikku
I didn't say he was done. I'm saying they saw YHWH in the same light as many of their coexisting polytheistic religions, as a source of natural phenomena.

He did some pretty unnatural things I think that's a bit more than thunder and lightinging in the Old Testament. Boarding on 'down right weird'!

Originally posted by Ikku
I don't worship anything as religious doctrine. But I don't see why books such as his have to be purely for entertainment and nothing more. I can draw all kinds of parallels to life, the universe, and everything

hehe, book # 3!

Originally posted by Ikku
within his writings. He was a very scientific man and a lot of his work could be seen as opposition to religion, as he was as he said, a radical atheist.

Well, nobody is perfect I guess. Do I have to throw my books away because of his beliefs? I hope not because I just picked up the gold leaf hardback edition.

Originally posted by Ikku
What makes you say it was pre-planned?

I have some quotes that'd be perfect for this to show that it is in fact the case. Let me grab them off another thread and I'll be back to post.

Originally posted by Ikku
And he later becomes displeased with his creation, which doesn't make any sense if it was all pre-planned.

Either we don't really understand the plan or not everything goes according to plan. This one is a nice debate between Christians.

Originally posted by Ikku
Because supposedly God created the natural processes. And fundamentalists take the Bible as literal truth. God said "Let there be light." A metaphor for the Big Bang? No, God just went -click-.

*nods* I can see it either way. Juxtaposition. Why would God have to obey the laws that He Himself set for the universe?

Originally posted by Ikku
An all-powerful God could've come up with something better.

What did you have in mind?

Originally posted by Ikku
In fact, he could have just willed that we be set straight and it would have been done.

This negates free will, creates slavery and would have even more people pissing and moaning all the time if they knew it occured. If not, then what have they learned? In that case, replace us with robots and see how interesting the world would be.

Originally posted by Ikku
No need to send a savior that not everyone will believe in. Again it seems like an unnecessary process for a god,

You're absolutely right. It is unnecessary for God, but you know who it is necessary for? Us.

Originally posted by Ikku
simply because it's just a fabrication of early religious leaders who didn't take many things into account, or just ignored them hoping no one would think of it.

Then they had a brilliant idea for a fix! It's been flawless for over 2,000 years. Also, it helped me get into contact with God. Hm...having a hard time buying this one.

Originally posted by Ikku
I don't believe in the devil.

I misunderstood then, my bad.

Originally posted by Ikku
Don't most Christians accept Jesus as one with God?

Ah, son of God. God is a part of Him but He's not all of God. Maybe He has some spirit sharing, diving in and out of God, I'm not sure. He does however refer to God as The Father, showing distinction.

Originally posted by Ikku
He is divine.

Very much so.

Originally posted by Ikku
In both testaments of the Bible it is said that God is worthy of worship.

Yes.

Originally posted by Ikku
Christian doctrine says that Jesus is God.

Jesus is part of God, he is lord.

Originally posted by Ikku
Jesus is worthy of worship.

I don't pray to Jesus, I pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ, our saviour and teacher.

Originally posted by Ikku
If for some reason you do not think Jesus is God, I don't think you have been reading the Bible. Take a look at verses such as John 1:1

John 1:2 "He (Jesus) was with God in the beginning." Hm, "with him" (New International Version). It doesn't say "He was God in the beginning" nor "God is Him". I believe the language is chosen carefully here.

Originally posted by Ikku
and Heb 1:8 (I'm looking at the KJV). Even the angels are said to worship Christ.

Whoa back up here . Let's start at the beginning of the chapter at Hebrews 1:1 " In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things..." Reading on, this passage emphasizes that the Son is superior to angels, as you've said. But how does God appoint himself? They are two entities represented respectively. Jesus is lord over all things, God created everything. In any case, it was Jesus who said to pray to God.

The brick wall answer for those who cannot see past their noses lies with: and who created the universe? To those who ask the question the answer is the ultimate cop out…obviously God. The next question and who created God is met by; he always was, which is the most ridiculous of answers they could summon as it shows how stymied they are.

God is all of us, good, bad, and evil collectively. We know this if we just open our eyes and see that consciously we are bound in mind. Where I might think one superfluous thought today, I am sure to see someone post that very same thought the next day. We are not the creation of some phenomenon which mysteriously came to be out of nothingness, but an evolutionary product of a stage we do not understand. As with those who died not knowing that the earth orbits the sun and not vice-versa, our lifetime will not have the answer. The brick wall confronts those who place the answer as to who is God, on the same level as those in opposition to Galileo, seen as a heretic by those who turned out to be the heretics. And even they as the know it all know nothing singular thinking heretics of today, will be excused for their lacking a knowledge just coming into existence, along with their inability to understand that which is already before them.


[edit on 1/21/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Originally posted by saint4God
But there is reason to do so. We're talking about 2 entirely different types of god/God here. One cannot throw in God with 'one of the boys' because he's the one that's not like the others.

Again, that is from the Christian perspective, they see themselves as right. They consider that the difference between God and gods is that one exists, the others do not. However, from my point of view, none of them exist. I can lump them all in a category of mythological figures, they're all the same to me.

Originally posted by saint4God
Which is why Greek Mythology is emphasised as mythology.

But don't you see that back then they didn't consider it to be "just mythology." It was as true to them as your religion is true to you. I consider the Bible to be mythology, but you consider it to be truth. You consider these ancient beliefs to be mythology, but they considered it truth. Do you see where I'm going? Apply the same logic you apply to their gods (they do not exist) to your own and you'll see where I'm coming from.

Originally posted by saint4God
Oh boy, where to start...Genesis? Gospels? The key word you have selected exceeds the maximum allotment of entries. Please narrow your search to a more refined criteria.

Alright then. Let's get specific. What basis is there in Hebrew scripture, ignoring the New Testament and focusing more on the creator God, that leads you to believe that the creation myths and deity portrayed is any more probable than older religions?

Originally posted by saint4God
Because superstitions are false and can be proven so. 'Mine' is still infallible.

That doesn't answer my question, that's just restating what I said you believed. What if somehow we prove that a creator is not necessary for the universe's existence? You can't say it's impossible, there are theories on the origin of everything, what if we find solid proof against God?

You're anticipating the defeat of Christianity. I am anticipating it's victory. We're on opposite sides so to speak with our chips on the table. The difference is I know the 'house' owner.

To each his own. I am convinced that eventually man will either stop believing it or die, taking the beliefs with him. Given the amount of time this planet has until it is unsuitable for our existence on it, I'd say it will die before man does, especially if man leaves Earth and lives on.

Originally posted by saint4God
Either we don't really understand the plan or not everything goes according to plan. This one is a nice debate between Christians.

If he is displeased, then his plan is definitely not going correctly. He would not be displeased if it was going according to plan. And how can an omnipotent being's plan go wrong?

Originally posted by saint4God
This negates free will, creates slavery and would have even more people pissing and moaning all the time if they knew it occured. If not, then what have they learned? In that case, replace us with robots and see how interesting the world would be.

You are forgetting one thing: omnipotence means all-powerful. He can do anything. Anything. Let's say for instance he set up rules that he himself would forever follow, ie free will. Then, people start to muck things up. Well, he can't go against his rule. But wait. He's omnipotent. So no matter what, somehow, he can straighten everything out without affecting free will. He can go around it and at the same time change everything without forcing anyone to change, yet compelling them to.

Now don't tell me this is what he did through Jesus. That's not what I mean. I mean direct intervention without taking human form. He could have willed "Let man see the error of his ways and change, but don't affect their freakin free will." Would've worked. All powerful.

Originally posted by saint4God
John 1:2 "He (Jesus) was with God in the beginning." Hm, "with him" (New International Version). It doesn't say "He was God in the beginning" nor "God is Him". I believe the language is chosen carefully here.

Refer to the verse I actually mentioned. Here it is for you:

John 1 KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus was with God, correct? Jesus is the Word. The Word was God. Jesus is God. There you go.

Originally posted by Ikku
and Heb 1:8 (I'm looking at the KJV). Even the angels are said to worship Christ.

Whoa back up here

. Let's start at the beginning of the chapter at Hebrews 1:1 " In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things..." Reading on, this passage emphasizes that the Son is superior to angels, as you've said. But how does God appoint himself? They are two entities represented respectively. Jesus is lord over all things, God created everything. In any case, it was Jesus who said to pray to God.

God doesn't necessarily appoint himself, but part of his spirit. Notice it says Jesus was worshipped, and they refer to him as God. They aren't two entities, isn't Christianity monotheism? If Jesus is divine and God is divine, yet they are two separate entities, that kind of contradicts itself. Jesus is one with God.

I was raised in a rather corrupt form of Christianity, I believe it is the largest organized religion, Roman Catholicism. There's a heavy pagan influence there and it may differ widely from your beliefs, but they pray to God, Jesus, Mary, saints, pretty much everyone. I don't see how they can do that and call themselves monotheists, although I could accept it if it were just God and Jesus as you can call them one. So I'm really saying a lot in spite, I do not wish to convert you or anyone else for that matter.

Thank you for letting me discuss this with you though.

God's plan.

: Originally posted by Seapeople
Saint, you said God has a plan..... Elaborate for us?

I'm glad you asked! The best analogies I have for this is gaming and parenting. Hear me out please, I'm not saying parenting is any easier than gaming by any stretch of the means, but follow my train of thought please:

Gaming: When you play any strategy game you have two things - tools and a goal. To the best formation of your thinking, you come up with an idea to employ those tools to reach your goal. In other words, you have your victory planned, you just need to get your guy(s) on the screen to do it.

Parenting: Even before you have your child, you have the named picked along with the hospital you're going to go to have her/him, the schools in your area mapped and a college savings account started. That child's life has been mapped for the first 18 years. Wow! What comfort there is in that if you're parents are able to pull it off. Well, said child need not follow that path the further s/he goes, but if s/he wants to, the rewards are great.

Okay, I'll stop with the analogies. It makes sense, as we are mini-creators in our world, to make the blueprints before building the house.

Where's my scripture? To believers:

Isaiah 46:9, 10: I am God and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done.

I Peter 1:20: (Christ) who (as a sacrifice for sin) was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world.

Isaiah 14:24: Jehovah of hosts has sworn, saying, Surely, as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand.

Acts 3:18: The things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He thus fulfilled.

Oh Ikku ye of little faith. Has thou stray from thou religion?

[edit on 21-1-2005 by Croat56]

Originally posted by Ikku
They consider that the difference between God and gods is that one exists, the others do not.

Not just that, but what I'm saying is they behave way different. One good example is the doom and gloom attitude of the Greeks and their gods as in they are subject to fate. The gods don't really care about them, they do as they will and oh what tragedy when people are involved in plans. God, though, is focused and bent on the idea that we are his creation and wants us to work with him. Do you see the gods and God behaving differently?

Originally posted by Ikku
However, from my point of view, none of them exist. I can lump them all in a category of mythological figures, they're all the same to me.

I get ya. I know, it's going to take proof for you...and I cannot give the proof that you need no matter how much I'd like to. All I can do is testify that I got my proof and if you want it, you can get yours.

Originally posted by Ikku
But don't you see that back then they didn't consider it to be "just mythology."

Yeah, I'm sure they saw more to it then.

Originally posted by Ikku
It was as true to them as your religion is true to you.

You know I've gotta disagree here (and don't expect to change your viewpoint). Since they didn't receive their proofs, how could it be tangible? I've got to give them credit, despite all the woe and despair they did their best to explain their surroundings, then turned to logic, then started looking around to see if someone else had the truth. They were seekers just as I was at one time.

Originally posted by Ikku
I consider the Bible to be mythology, but you consider it to be truth. You consider these ancient beliefs to be mythology, but they considered it truth. Do you see where I'm going? Apply the same logic you apply to their gods (they do not exist) to your own and you'll see where I'm coming from.

I do see where you're coming from. I just feel the substance behind it all now. It's funny you mentioned Greek mythology, because when I was aggressively agnostic, I called upon any entity that existed beyond the human realm to show itself and I would believe (and I'd included Zeus in that one). Well, Zeus was a 'no show' but all Hell did break loose. Please though, for anyone hearing this, DON'T DO IT! Learn from my idiocy and do not repeat my mistakes. I escaped with my life and soul but not by much. Then of course I get silenced for 15 years...but that's another story.

Originally posted by Ikku
Alright then. Let's get specific. What basis is there in Hebrew scripture, ignoring the New Testament and focusing more on the creator God, that leads you to believe that the creation myths and deity portrayed is any more probable than older religions?

Hold up. What religion are you claiming is older than God?

Originally posted by Ikku
That doesn't answer my question, that's just restating what I said you believed.

Sorry, refocusing my attention then...

Originally posted by Ikku
What if somehow we prove that a creator is not necessary for the universe's existence? You can't say it's impossible, there are theories on the origin of everything, what if we find solid proof against God?

Checkmate. You've planned ahead my move . If I cannot say 'it's impossible' then I have no answer. But it will take not only your definition of proof, but the world's definition of proof and also you'd have to negate the proof that I have received from what God is telling me is Him. Finally, you'd have to successfully argue the reasoning/advice behind the Bible is not what is best for humanity. This mission would be a huge undertaking.

Originally posted by Ikku
To each his own. I am convinced that eventually man will either stop believing it or die, taking the beliefs with him.

I'll take death. Now you peeps saying "he's looking for a reason to die!" stop it please, I am not! I've heard y'all on the other threads...

Originally posted by Ikku
Given the amount of time this planet has until it is unsuitable for our existence on it, I'd say it will die before man does, especially if man leaves Earth and lives on.

Sounds grim...

Originally posted by Ikku
If he is displeased, then his plan is definitely not going correctly. He would not be displeased if it was going according to plan. And how can an omnipotent being's plan go wrong?

This is hard for me to argue because I'm not on one side of the Christian viewpoint or the other. There are those who say God knows exactly when and where we will screw up and uses those experiences as a teaching tool...then there's the other house that says he set the universe in motion, manages the big picture and smacks us around when we get out of line. Which one is it? I don't know. Both sound pretty convincing to me.

Originally posted by Ikku
You are forgetting one thing: omnipotence means all-powerful. He can do anything. Anything. Let's say for instance he set up rules that he himself would forever follow, ie free will. Then, people start to muck things up. Well, he can't go against his rule. But wait. He's omnipotent. So no matter what, somehow, he can straighten everything out without affecting free will. He can go around it and at the same time change everything without forcing anyone to change, yet compelling them to.

Wow! That's some excellent free thinking! Hm, my brain cells have something to chew on for a while. Again, 'compellling them to' sounds to me a bit like mind control. I think any way he does it, he has to do it in a way we can understand it.

Originally posted by Ikku
Now don't tell me this is what he did through Jesus. That's not what I mean. I mean direct intervention without taking human form. He could have willed "Let man see the error of his ways and change, but don't affect their freakin free will." Would've worked. All powerful.

The 'how' of your proposal baffles me and possibly would baffle a great number of his followers to such an extent that we may just take for granted that He will 'just make it all better' once we have our free will back again. Hey wait a second...this sounds somewhat familiar. Did this really happen in the old testament? Hm...Garden of Eden, the Ten Commandments...I think you're on to something!

Originally posted by Ikku
Jesus was with God, correct? Jesus is the Word. The Word was God. Jesus is God. There you go.

How do you guys do it? Just when I have a model in my head set up in a way I can understand it, here comes the whole 'who is who?' train. I'm pretty sure my model is not 'right on the button'. I have a feeling the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy does not apply to God in the way I understand it. The best I can make of it is there are transient spirits. Christians must believe in some kind of spirit form that is not solid matter. When you say something exists that has similar properties of matter but isn't matter then that opens up a whole new world, doesn't it? In other words, I owe $48,000 to an institution that cannot give me the full story on Physics. Grrr...I'm writing them a letter ! Did that sufficiently avoid your question? I'm going back to what I know now: I pray to God, in the name of Jesus, and get results.

Originally posted by Ikku
God doesn't necessarily appoint himself, but part of his spirit.

Aha! There you go. I got you to say it too! He appointed Jesus in the written passage, erego Jesus is part of His spirit.

Originally posted by Ikku
Notice it says Jesus was worshipped, and they refer to him as God. They aren't two entities, isn't Christianity monotheism?

monotheism = 1 God. Yes, Christainity is monotheistic. Thank you for giving me a question I know the answer to in this post. Jesus seems to be 'a chip off the ole block'.

Originally posted by Ikku
If Jesus is divine and God is divine, yet they are two separate entities, that kind of contradicts itself. Jesus is one with God.

Analogy: Jesus is like the computer, God is like the internet. They're connected and by being connected they are one. They do however, serve two different functions. Hey, I think you're helping me re-work the physical limitations with my model!

Originally posted by Ikku
I was raised in a rather corrupt form of Christianity, I believe it is the largest organized religion, Roman Catholicism.

I'm sorry to hear. Candidly, I was dulled to the idea for a number of years and rejected any part of it for half a decade. I don't know much about Roman Catholicism so I'm afraid I'm not much help on speaking on it.

Originally posted by Ikku
There's a heavy pagan influence there and it may differ widely from your beliefs, but they pray to God,

So far so good.

Originally posted by Ikku
Jesus,

But but...Jesus said pray to God... okay, I'll stop.

Originally posted by Ikku
Mary,

Uhm, what's she going to do? *flips through his Book again*

Originally posted by Ikku
saints,

Ack! Don't pray to me, I don't need that kind of pressure! I know I know, that church probably doesn't recognize me as a saint.

Originally posted by Ikku
pretty much everyone.

...which seems odd to me.

Originally posted by Ikku
I don't see how they can do that and call themselves monotheists, although I could accept it if it were just God and Jesus as you can call them one. So I'm really saying a lot in spite,

I don't hear any spite in your words. If I hear any, I'll definately let you know. Is it that I'm deaf to it or that others are hearing something that's not there?

Originally posted by Ikku
I do not wish to convert you or anyone else for that matter.

I'd be an arrogant fool to think I could. Only God gets to do that.

Originally posted by Ikku
Thank you for letting me discuss this with you though.

Anytime. It's a most enjoyable and enlightening experience. I'm good for this. Truly engaging. Certainly if there's anything I can help with, I'd be glad to try.


[edit on 22-1-2005 by saint4God]

Normally I dont like to argue about the existence of [a] deity(s), so I'll try not to, I will however share some of my knowledge.

Even if there is no matter and nothing to count it by and no one to count it time is still there.

Also I just wanted to correct some french I read on an earlier post, now unless there related it should not be 'Oh contraire mon frere", that states that they are related, I suspect it was suppose to be ''Au contraire mon ami.'' which means on the contrary my friend.

If god created the universe and lives outside it, than who created the Multiverse, or superverse, or Hyperverse, or [Infinite amounts of bigger 'verses'], A belief that could be held is that there is not an infinite amount of larger verses, but a near infinite amount, and that a deity created the first one and nature took its place creating the smaller and smaller verses.

The truth is, we dont know, I mean for all we know the Egyptians or Greko/Roman religions could be right, or maybe the more spiritual side Buudhism is right and we are reincarnated over and over until our Karma is pure and than we live in Nirvana and know and understand everything, or perhaps we areselves are gods and dont know it, the point is as I stated above we dont know.

One of my favorite sayings is, that ''If you have to argue over the existence of your god(ess)(s), than you most likely have doubts about there existence".
Thats all I have to say.

May peace and prosperity belong to all of you.

[edit on 1/22/2005 by iori_komei]

[edit on 1/22/2005 by iori_komei]

Originally posted by iori_komei
Also I just wanted to correct some french I read on an earlier post, now unless there related it should not be 'Oh contraire mon frere", that states that they are related, I suspect it was suppose to be ''Au contraire mon ami.''

Totally my bad. You're absolutely right and didn't give thought to possibly offending anyone by butchering the language. It was a colloquialism from growing up where the right phrase per above was changed to (one who sounded quite silly in his incorrect recitation) "Oh contraire moon frere". Sorry if that offended, French is the world's most beautiful sounding language in my opinion. Now of course I've probably offended someone by implying any other language is not 'as beautiful' I can't win! But to those doubting, pick up Patricia Kaas' (French Jazz/Blues) Toure De Charme or Scene La Vie, grab a cup of coffee and relax in the low light.

Originally posted by iori_komei
May peace and prosperity belong to all of you.

Thank you and wishing the same for you as well.

By the by, it sounds as if you're more on the 'prove and I'll believe' side than the 'there is no god' side. Is that accurate?

[edit on 22-1-2005 by saint4God]

The answer to the question "Daddy...Where does God come from?"

God was around before everything else and it was a really boring and lonely place. There was nothing happening anywhere. It was very boring. Then suddenly God got a brilliant idea to create beings like him not as powerful of course but ones that could learn and create things using their own ideas. These people would need a place to live so he had to create a planet. The planet needed heat so he had to create a star. The star needed other stars or the universe would be very empty so God went all out and created billions of other star systems and billions of other groups to put the systems into. These stars and billions of other star systems would allow the people to develop vast galactic civilizations after millions of years. The plan seemed brilliant. He would need beings to oversee his creation so he created angels to watch over things.

One of the angels didn't like all of God's plans. He had a falling out with the boss. He thought he could run the show alot better. God wanted to prove this disgruntled employee was wrong so the experiment began. Satan was put in charge of the Earth and had a limited time to prove his way would work better. God would only intervene when absolutely necessary or by requests he deemed worthy. and here we are stuck in this experiment.