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Study of Tongues in the New Testament

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posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 11:41 AM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn



Not one of Paul's writings to the church are hard to understand, any 6th grader can understand the words employed in the Preserved Bible.


So why does Peter say some are hard to understand if they are actually not hard to understand? Was Peter lacking in true knowledge to see that all of Paul's teachings were easy to understand?

If Paul's teachings are easy to understand then why are there so many different denominations all based on differing interpreatations of what he taught?


1 Corinthians 14
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?


What good is Paul since he speaks in tongues more than anyone else? He does not edify the church, only himself.




posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 11:48 AM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

And you reject the preserved records that have resurfaced in the last 50 yrs?

How do you deal with the fact that the earliest bibles are different than the "Holy Scriptures"? As an example, the last chapter of Mark 9-20? Its a pretty important group of scriptures to prove Jesus having risen from the tomb. If they are a later add on, it makes a person take pause and reexamine their belief system. That is why I find the dead sea scrolls are so important. They have been untouched by well meaning people who have changed and added parts to validate their agenda.

www.bible-researcher.com...
Mark 16:9-20 has been called a later addition to the Gospel of Mark by most New Testament scholars in the past century. The main reason for doubting the authenticity of the ending is that it does not appear in some of the oldest existing witnesses, and it is reported to be absent from many others in ancient times by early writers of the Church. Moreover, the ending has some stylistic features which also suggest that it came from another hand. The Gospel is obviously incomplete without these verses, and so most scholars believe that the final leaf of the original manuscript was lost, and that the ending which appears in English versions today (verses 9-20) was supplied during the second century. Below are some excerpts from various scholarly sources that conclude that the verses are a later add on.

Just wondering.



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 11:56 AM
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a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

First Paul said he did but we have no instance in the Bible of he ever doing so.

Second, here is the context it starts is verse 14, it is that if they knew the things Peter shared prior to verse 14 and they would account the longsuffering of the Lord is part of their salvation. The only place where Paul wrote unto Jews is the book of Hebrews. So that is the book Peter is referring too and it was written before he went to the Gentiles.

2 Peter 3:14-18 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
The longsuffering of the Lord committed to the Jews by both Peter and Paul is that they will suffer but they were to be found in peace and without spot in their life. They are doing the work of doing right. That is part of the Kingdom Gospel to Israel.

Under the gospel of Grace of God all men are made clean and without spot and blemish by faith in Christ and it is this that Paul endeavored to do for Corinthians when he gave them the instructions for their church not just on tongues but about going to the court against another Christian, and other teachings as well.

Context clears it all up. But men take the teaching of Paul and twist it as you had above and that to your own shame.

Are you really serious that none of Paul's instruction are good today?

What about

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
???



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 11:57 AM
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a reply to: misskat1
My preserved word of God has all the verse of the Holy Bible in it. Those verse were never missing form mine and therefore are accurately preserved in my Bible no matter what any man says.



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 12:06 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

How cool, I didnt know you had an ancient bible. But, if your copy is a modern one, then it has been compromised.

But, that is the wonderful part about having "personal beliefs". We can believe anything we want, regardless of the facts. Kind Regards on your journey. K



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 12:07 PM
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a reply to: misskat1

You may believe that I do not.

My Bible is the preserved word of God. It has ALL the verses in it while the other 350plus English Bibles do not including any English Bible written since 1830



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 12:08 PM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Klassified
But your off the beaten path has no Biblical context. No where in scripture is there an esoterically teaching of tongues that speaks to a man spirit via the ethers or psych or any other realm of understanding. All these tongues were PHYSICAL TONGUES and the context shows that, the understanding comes from either them hearing their own language or an interpretation of a language or an unknown tongue.

Now I have heard of that sort of teaching in new age thought

There's plenty of biblical context. Just not from a Christian perspective. But carry on. It looks as though you already have enough heathens on your plate. lol.



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 12:13 PM
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a reply to: intrptr




tenants of modern Churchian practice, speaking in mysterious languages is gibberish


"tenets"

tenants usually occupy buildings



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 12:18 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Paul speaks in tongues through the words he put down in his epistles, his doctrine is the tongue he speaks in. There is an esoteric meaning underneath the words he wrote that the church never touches upon and instead teaches that they are meant to be taken literally.

Paul was very vague with the words he wrote for a very specific reason, to cause confusion and differing interpretations.

Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin, Benjamin is a ravenous wolf according to the OT. Paul is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

There's a story in the Torah where Joseph (Benjamin's only full brother) plants a silver cup in Benjamin's backpack. The silver cup is the esoteric meaning within Paul's epistles/backpack. You have yet to find it, but once you do (just like Jospeh) you wlll have Paul's words serve your search (he will become your "slave") for truth. You must first find the silver cup before you can use his words to your advantage though. You haven't found it yet, you stlll take his words at face value.



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 12:20 PM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: misskat1

You may believe that I do not.

My Bible is the preserved word of God. It has ALL the verses in it while the other 350plus English Bibles do not including any English Bible written since 1830


Why hide the version of the bible you are using? If you are that certain it is the "preserved word of god", why not let others know, so they can read it too? Seems a bit disingenuous that you don't just come out and say it in your posts.
edit on 7/16/2016 by Klassified because: clarity



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 12:49 PM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn

BuzzyWigs

I started this thread in case the Mods remove the requested study that Buzzywigs wanted in another thread because of thread drift.

I ask one thing. You have a Bible with you and you look at the scriptures I am using.

I may have posted this online somewhere but this is my copy from my study series as we went through the Bible. It would be a little different than any I may have placed online.

I will try to keep this outline short and simple. This is my Understanding of what the Scriptures say plainly about the Three types of tongues found in the Bible. One is a Sign gift (for Israel), one is a Spiritual gift (this is for the church), and one in a Selfish use of Tongues (there is no interpretation and only benefits and edifies the one who is using it.)

I had always wondered if tongues are not needed why did Paul mention them as a spiritual gift, and that when done properly would bring edification to the church. I discovered that by rightly dividing tongues I found there were three types of usage of tongues in the New Testament.

I. The Sign Gift of Tongues
Interesting enough the sign gift in every example needed no interpretation all who heard understood what was said. One thing to remember it was the Jews who always required a sign before they would follow anyone as a prophet

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:


Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Acts 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
(though we are not told what the prophecy was the only way they would know it was a prophecy is if they knew what was being said).

II The Spiritual Gift of Tongues
The spiritual gift needs an interpretation and it is connected with interpretation in 1Cor 12:10, all Paul's instructions insist that there be an interpretation. The reason being that the church would be edified and profit from what is being spoken which is the purpose of the gift.


1Cor 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1Co 14:9-11 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
1Cor 14:12, 13 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Cor 14:27, 28 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.


III The Selfish use of tongues
The this use of tongues has no interpretation. And its use goes against the Lords purpose for giving it.


1Cor 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself.
1Cor 14:12-14 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Cor 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Cor 14:22, 23 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1Cor 14:27, 28 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
Clearly those who practice speaking in unknown tongues in the assembly of believers without an interpretation are in disobedience to Gods word. And if there be more than three speaking in tongues in the assembly they are in disobedience to Gods word as well.

Another interesting thing is only the sign gift has Biblical examples. The interpreted tongue has no example of any

God bless your reading of his word.

The Pentecostal tongue was not an unknown tongue, rather it was known to everyone present on that day in all their languages even in the very dialect of those present. It was a sign of the presence of the HOLY Spirit at that particular time and didn't need an interpretation. It has never occurred since nor will until the end day, at least that's what the bible says. Whether you or I believe it is irrelevant but that's what it says. What you hear today is nothing but one upmanship nonesenical gibberish with no edification at all. The other tongue is nothing more then a foreign language, nothing special about it. However, it is a gift to be able to convey a spiritual message to a foreign people. I've heard the same old arguments before and they are all the same, there isn't three languages nor is there a special language spoken today. Its just misunderstandings/misinterpretations about the written bible. I've studied this among other topics at length utilizing different study tools and various other opinions. Scientific studies have even been done and confirmed as much and It's just not true. I don't understand why certain Christians hang on to these ludicrous ideas. Pentecostals even go so far as to say that a person doesn't have the Holy spirit and in essence isn't saved if they don't pretend to speak this gerber gibberish.



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 12:54 PM
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a reply to: starlitestarbright

But all the scripture do not support your teaching. Unless you take it out of context and divorce it from to who it is speaking of and written about and for what reason it was done. In the case I have outlined it does not support two different teachings, in this case one in context and the other out of context.

We need to always be careful not to go beyond what is simply taught. In this case we can see what Paul said for the church was for and how it was to be done. Like I said the Bible has no example of how it was misused or the use was ever done.

In acts it was for a sign to Jews, you will notice in ACTS 2 there were 16 men (the original 11 plus Mathias and the four half brothers of Jesus) who spoke in tongues and their were Jews devote men who were from 16 different countries and regions.



edit on 16-7-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 01:54 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs



The Pope is a good man - Gautama and Jesus were good men. Ghandi and countless other kind, empathic souls are good, also. No one INCLUDING JESUS on Earth has ever been perfect. That is a fact. If we were perfect, we would not be here. We are not here to "win a seat in heaven" - we are here to learn.


If you put Yeshua, Gautama, Ghandi, You and Nanak in the right environment and you will shine.
.

I might not agree with some things Ghandi said since some of it was to simplistic from my point of view and even Yeshua made some duality errors. But then he was earlier when the golden path was not as paved. He was quite insightful on the psyche of a being in between. Not left yet but already more connected to the divine than this place. I have a tendency to love logical sharpness and Yeshua and Gautama are very sharp.

Now we even have quantum physics to explain how the spiritual world can create information exchange with our biological bodies.

For some this is a
1. learning experience
2. teaching experience
3. test of will and patience (I suck at patience)
4. vacation

For some it is a bit of all above and more that I have not quantified.



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 01:58 PM
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a reply to: LittleByLittle

I totally understand you. It's like you're "speaking my language" ------




posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 01:59 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn


But all the scripture do not support your teaching.




you said this to starlight - not to me, but my answer would be:

SO BLOODY WHAT?
Your scripture does not support the truth.



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 03:02 PM
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a reply to: LittleByLittle

this is way off topic.



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

No, the post by LittlebyLittle is exactly pertinent, and what you don't get about 'tongues.'

Like "love" and "becoming a parent", there are no words to describe some things. There are no words to describe "God" or the Divine, either. The whole idea of "tongues" is that only a few will get it. If you are hung up on Bible verses and the writings therein, you don't get it. (Paul was not a sage; nor was Mohammed. The former was an opportunist and manipulator; the latter, a borderline personality disorder with lots of charisma and a short fuse.)


I'm sorry, Chester, but you can parse the Bible until forever, and if you don't understand what Jesus or Buddha or any other sage really meant, you just don't get it.

It isn't about semantics, or taking things literally. It isn't about context or prophecies or revelations or prosperity or any of that jazz.

LitteByLittle has provided a perfect example of "speaking in tongues", actually. Either you know what he or she means, or you don't. I know exactly what that post means.

Try some "new age" study - it would benefit your soul a great deal, and liberate you from the box in which you are clearly stuck. You don't have to be. You are choosing to be. Come with us, we'll show you how much more satisfying life can be without your stuffy "Bible" holding you back.

Or don't. Up to you. Entirely up to you. But don't say we didn't invite you along.


EDIT: And you know what strikes me as even sadder? Is that you seem to be so earnest, and so willing to understand it. But you don't....precisely because you are trying so earnestly. You're trying too hard. You're over-thinking it.

If The Bible provides us with anything, it is just that: PROOF that only a few will understand. And once we do, we no longer need the Bible.
It's rather like any other learning curve. My brain is not equipped to deal with maths beyond Trigonometry. When it came to Calculus, even though I was placed in High School as an 'advanced' student - at Calculus was where my ability ended. Beyond Trig, none of it made sense.

Same with physics. I can understand as a layperson, so when Tyson or Freeman talk to me, I get what they're saying. I can read Dickens and see the deeper message. Philosophy is harder, but I can grasp it as well.

You simply can't see past where you are right now, and that's a shame. It'll be okay - no harm done, as long as you're not indoctrinating little kids into your club and locking them in with you. That's bad.

edit on 7/16/2016 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 03:19 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Here is what he/she said. No mention of the Sbject of the OP in it.

If you put Yeshua, Gautama, Ghandi, You and Nanak in the right environment and you will shine.
.

I might not agree with some things Ghandi said since some of it was to simplistic from my point of view and even Yeshua made some duality errors. But then he was earlier when the golden path was not as paved. He was quite insightful on the psyche of a being in between. Not left yet but already more connected to the divine than this place. I have a tendency to love logical sharpness and Yeshua and Gautama are very sharp.

Now we even have quantum physics to explain how the spiritual world can create information exchange with our biological bodies.

For some this is a
1. learning experience
2. teaching experience
3. test of will and patience (I suck at patience)
4. vacation

For some it is a bit of all above and more that I have not quantified.


the only thing it has to do with tongues is that he calls Jesus by the Hebrew Yiddish version of his name.

Now concering your reply to me here

a reply to: ChesterJohn


Paul would rather speak in a language that is easily understood. That is his testimony, so your opinion cloaked with a bible verse out of the context is incorrect.



Hi Chester. Thanks for inviting me to the thread. I have read through it now, and I want to say that I agree with Klass and windword, LittlebyLittle and intrpr, 3NL and other regulars on this forum -
the language of the Bible is suspect. Any document that has been translated (and therefore interpreted), rearranged, edited for content, and collected from countless incomplete sources is suspect as to original intention. What you're getting here on ATS is "peer review" - and we, your peers, do not find your beliefs and explanations to be valid.

I know that Jesus was an Essene (many of us do!) and that his teachings were corrupted by Paul and that was the beginning of the huge mess that is now "Christianity." I walked away from that stuff years and years ago, except to study it - because I fancy myself a linguist, and am multi-lingual (I speak two human languages fluently, and am able to understand some others (Latin based), I read music, I know maths, I understand my dogs and cats and horses when they communicate, and yes, I'm a mom who raised two kids and also helped raise dozens of others as an on-site parent educator).

The Bible is not a gift from "God" - it's the work of men.
Sorry, but that's the way I see it. And will always see it.

Whatever the divine is, it is within us ALL - there are no "saved" or "unsaved" people - we are all eternal beings -- believers and unbelievers alike. Even materialists and atheists - we all are on a unique journey with a common source and destination - I know I spend a lot of time and energy "bashing" modern Christianity - because it deserves to be unmasked and exposed.

The Pope is a good man - Gautama and Jesus were good men. Ghandi and countless other kind, empathic souls are good, also. No one INCLUDING JESUS on Earth has ever been perfect. That is a fact. If we were perfect, we would not be here. We are not here to "win a seat in heaven" - we are here to learn.

Sticking to just one set of interpretations indicates faulty critical thinking, in my opinion.
I know you take this stuff and yourself very seriously. Perhaps a bit too much - because you continue to 'preach' to us, knowing ahead of time that we don't believe what you're saying to be true.

I admire your tenacity, but, just know that you're no closer to the answers than any of us. We're all just as correct as you are.


You are all welcome to your opinion I do not agree with it. I believe the teaching Paul gives to be valid for the church today. No need to reinterpret what has already been interpreted we just need to believe it. You don't I do.

I may not agree with you, however I will do my best to respect your opinion and not ridicule it.
edit on 16-7-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 03:38 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

If you don't see what it has to do with "tongues", then oh well. I've explained it as best I can manage. You don't see what Little and I see, because you simply don't see it. It isn't ridiculing to say that!

It is what it is!!

We see things in common, so we have a 'common language' between us...to you it's gibberish....but it isn't really.
It's our truth.

I understand your position very well. I understand that you mean well and want to spread your knowledge (which is extensive, and its clear that you have invested much energy and effort into polishing your offerings). So do we. And our knowledge, though 'foreign' to you, is 'normal' to us.

You really don't see how that relates to "tongues"? "Speaking in tongues" - was about that. Some will get it, most will not.
Parables. Mysteries. Indescribability.

That's one of the things that Gautama Buddha stressed. When asked his thinking about "God" (the Divine), he said the question was impertinent, as God simply is and there's no "thinking" - there is only being. Being part of it. There are no words to describe it.



posted on Jul, 16 2016 @ 04:11 PM
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originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: intrptr




tenants of modern Churchian practice, speaking in mysterious languages is gibberish


"tenets"

tenants usually occupy buildings

Weird, both apply. Churchians think thats where to find salvation. I meant it the way you said though. Spell check 'corrected' me.



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