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Terrorist Rights in Courts?

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posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 03:13 PM
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Ladies and Gents,

I really want to keep this thread alive and get inputs from as many people as possible and I want to answer or throw points out there on this and my wife just threw some good points out to me on the phone, but right now I have dinner going and some business to take care of, but I will be back on later to answer, reply or post as much as possible.

This is a good topic and its needs points from every angle and every view. Just try to keep bashing down at all cost, we dont need to bash each country or their citizenship, not every country is perfect and we all have skeletons in our closests.

Thank you sorry I havent been able to reply but I have things going on around me. Thank you fro those who have posted on tnhis thread. Be back in a few hrs.

Thanks, M.




posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by mscbkc070904
Not saying I am inhumane,


Sure you are.

You're just a different kind of monster than the type we're normally used to. Quietly seething in your suburban tract home, distanced and insulated from the violence you're so quick to pronounce as justified. Moral hubris.

Never quite getting your hands dirty enough for the grime to be real.

Certainly you are inhumane. That what happens when you get used to torturing your enemies in the name of safety. Cruelty becomes normal and commonplace when you become as bad as the people you're fighting.

It becomes easier, less shocking when, as evil as they are, they're no longer "people", just animals. Beasts to be slaughtered qucikly and efficiently. And that's their final attack on you, these truly evil men, to steal away the last bit of humanity seperating you from them. Until you're nothing more than a shell, unable and incapable of containing any sort of human emotion or feeling. Color forever lost to you as you finally sink into the black horizon that becomes the rest of your life.

No, you the worst kind of monster. You're a coward. Your hands are antisceptically clean, while you watch the from the safety of your own living room. Utterly and completely repugnant. Please do not raise children.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by brimstone735

Originally posted by mscbkc070904
Not saying I am inhumane,


Sure you are.

You're just a different kind of monster than the type we're normally used to. Quietly seething in your suburban tract home, distanced and insulated from the violence you're so quick to pronounce as justified. Moral hubris.

Never quite getting your hands dirty enough for the grime to be real.

Certainly you are inhumane. That what happens when you get used to torturing your enemies in the name of safety. Cruelty becomes normal and commonplace when you become as bad as the people you're fighting.

It becomes easier, less shocking when, as evil as they are, they're no longer "people", just animals. Beasts to be slaughtered qucikly and efficiently. And that's their final attack on you, these truly evil men, to steal away the last bit of humanity seperating you from them. Until you're nothing more than a shell, unable and incapable of containing any sort of human emotion or feeling. Color forever lost to you as you finally sink into the black horizon that becomes the rest of your life.

No, you the worst kind of monster. You're a coward. Your hands are antisceptically clean, while you watch the from the safety of your own living room. Utterly and completely repugnant. Please do not raise children.


Well... I could not have said it any better.
Thank you



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 10:54 PM
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"Sure you are.

You're just a different kind of monster than the type we're normally used to. Quietly seething in your suburban tract home, distanced and insulated from the violence you're so quick to pronounce as justified. Moral hubris.

Never quite getting your hands dirty enough for the grime to be real.

Certainly you are inhumane. That what happens when you get used to torturing your enemies in the name of safety. Cruelty becomes normal and commonplace when you become as bad as the people you're fighting.

It becomes easier, less shocking when, as evil as they are, they're no longer "people", just animals. Beasts to be slaughtered qucikly and efficiently. And that's their final attack on you, these truly evil men, to steal away the last bit of humanity seperating you from them. Until you're nothing more than a shell, unable and incapable of containing any sort of human emotion or feeling. Color forever lost to you as you finally sink into the black horizon that becomes the rest of your life.

No, you the worst kind of monster. You're a coward. Your hands are antisceptically clean, while you watch the from the safety of your own living room. Utterly and completely repugnant. Please do not raise children."

Excuse me, I am the worst kind of monster? And you call me a coward? You know nothing of me and what I have done.

I would like for you to clarify yourself on this matter via U2U to me.

In fact dont, I do not have to dignify myself to someone who is clouded by their own hatred.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 10:59 PM
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The purpose of this thread is to see from what perspective where terrorists have rights to destroy lives because they have a cowardly approach to settling disputes politically. They use violence and death as a means to get what message across? And what do they really plan to achieve in the long run? Hell, half of them probably dont know what they are really fighting for.

So where is that legal? Why is it that because they are US, Brit, Yemeni, Indian, Sudanese, etc that they have the right to be tried by their country when they comitted the act beyond their own country, or have the rights of the country they comitted the act in?



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 03:17 AM
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Originally posted by mscbkc070904
I dont know if there is, but there should be a seperate list of rights, developed by the World Council for terrorist only. They should not be able to claim their home country or any country for that fact. They committed a crime of terrorism period and their should be some type of guideline on how they are prosecuted and a list of general punishments for those crimes. They gave up their rights when they made the decision to makes acts of terrorism, they abide by no country law, no rules of governing, the only ones they follow are the ones set forth by the group they follow.

I agree that they should not have the same rights as an American citizen. What is the purpose of becoming a citizen if you can get the same rights by merely committing an act of terror against us?

If you extend these rights to them, where does it stop? Do they have all rights of a US citizen by default?

They should not have access to our courts, either. A military tribunal is the best way to deal with them.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 05:27 AM
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Originally posted by mscbkc070904
Excuse me, I am the worst kind of monster? And you call me a coward? You know nothing of me and what I have done.

I would like for you to clarify yourself on this matter via U2U to me.

In fact dont, I do not have to dignify myself to someone who is clouded by their own hatred.



Nonsense. It's not hatred. You're a coward, because you're a lazy sort of evil. Willing to look the other way, while others do the really hard work for you. Living in Minnesota, you're in absolutely no danger, yet you're so casual about chipping away the framework and the foundation that our nation perches upon, and for what? The one in ten billion chance that Iraqi insurgents might attack Duluth?

Is your piece of mind honestly worth giving up our core, national values of justice and integrity. I don't think so, because your agruement comes across like an hysterical old woman, screaming up at the falling sky.

The liberty you wrap yourself in means nothing if you so casually throw away the rule of law. It doesn't matter what the terrorists do, they're evil. We expect nothing from them. But, it does matter what we do, because we're not evi. And, the minute we forsake that, we lose our greatness forever. It seems some of us are struggling with that fact more than others.

The spirit of our constitution, the spirit of our bill of rights, is what seperates us from the very beasts outside our walls, now trying to get in.
Freedom means nothing if we have to sell our souls to acquire it, because then you're enslaved to a different kind of master. Then the laws of the jungle apply to war and peace. Kill or be killed. Hunt or be hunted.

Not only are you a coward, but you're a traitor to the spirit and intent of the framers themselves. Men who sought to tame the troubled times around them with the measurement of the thumb and the weight of a musket, but never forgetting that there are rules that guide them.

Patriots wear the white hat, and they never take the easy way out. By giving an inch of freedom for a foot of safety, you've proven yourself to be the type of person who would turn on their flag to survive for five more minutes. You're a coward, because you're willing to sacrifice your principles to maintain your safety. That's pathetic.

As for clarifying myself, you know exactly where I stand.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 08:52 AM
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Brimstone,

You know nothing of me. You call me a coward, I fought for this country, I served under it, PROUDLY, fought for its COLORS, PROTECTED those colors with my own blood, fought for the rights of innocence of others,, foreign and domestic, I have had soliers, sailors and Marines die in front of me, I have sent Marines into the forefront of battle to protect those who had no protection or help of any kind, foreign and domestic. I held those men and women as they died in my arms and wondering why I am the one spared and they are not, yet I proceed on with the mission I am given. I have stared redhanded terrorists in the eyes, I have seen the hatred they have, the anger they display, the distance in their eyes between what is reality and what is not. I have witness their destruction first hand, I have been there when they attack, with no remorse for what they have done, I have had the blood of their own on my hands as a result of their destruction, seen the cries of innocence shredded by a mortar or an RPG.

I have seen more death and destruction, famine and hatred on the forefront than you will ever see in a lifetime.

You are entitled to your opinions, but make sure you know who you talk to before you accuse them of being something they are not. With that said, you and your comments have only backfired what has been said here. Just cause I listed MN does not mean I am in MN, maybe I keep certain things private.

By the way, you have been ignored, do not entertain us anymore with your antics, you want to bash, do it elsewhere but not on this site, this is a forum for disucssion, not a hatred forum.

[edit on 19/1/05 by mscbkc070904]



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by mscbkc070904
Brimstone,
You know nothing of me. You call me a coward, I fought for this country, [edit on 19/1/05 by mscbkc070904]


And yet, I know enough about you, based on your original post, to pass judgement upon you. True, this is indeed a forum for a discussion, but it's not hatred when I call you out and make an example of your hypocrisy. The professing of virtues and beliefs that you do not actually possess.

This isn't liberal double speak, this is big boy talk.

In this case, I have no doubt in my mind that you have fought, and have fought bravely. I believe wholeheartedly that you have witnessed horrible things, atrocities committed by the other side. I believe that we are in the very of our lives against an ever growing enemy that multiplies every day. I also believe that you have the best of intentions, but that doesn't make you right, that makes you nieve. Right does not mean correct.

There is a fundemental difference between the two. In this case, there are exactly two reasons why wars are fundementally waged. Tyranny and freedom. And the men who fight these wars do so to oppress or to liberate.

So, which are the reasons you fight for?

Do you fight for freedom or do you fight for tyranny? Do you oppress people or do you liberate them? Tyranny is easy. Dictate through fear and control through violence. Oppression has no laws to speak of. No rules to follow. It's easy to win, because order is drenched in the blood of the weak. But maintaining that order is much harder. When there are no rules, anybody can do anything as long as they're strong enough or ruthless enough. And the cunning liars will always win in the end.

Fighting for freedom is much harder, because you not only wage war to liberate, but you fight for such high minded ideals as liberty for everybody and justice for all...especially the ones you hate the most. Especially your worst enemy who wants nothing more than to kill you.

Our civilization can then prosecute their civilization.

Freedom is hard. Being morally right is hard. Being the bringers of light, to those who have none, is hard. You can fail in your mission and still succeed in your goals. Because, then you are righteous and you can never truly fail. And, I have little sympathy and absolutely zero tolerance for those who fail to be righteous when carrying our flag.

Democracy is difficult, because we have rules that we mustr follow. However unfair, however difficult they may be, we must maintain the ideals, the spririt, and intent of what our founding fathers intended our nation to be. In every military school in this country, they teach the fundementals about protecting the rights of our enemy prisoners. These rules are not put into place by civilians, but by soldiers who've been prisoners themselves. Following these rules is what seperates us from our enemies, the very barbarian hordes themselves.

And, if you choose to wage war like a barbarian, you then become a barbarian yourself. You forsake your ideals, you turn your back on what your country stands, losing your rightenousness forever. You become nothing more than a bloodythirsty mob, a pack of rabid animals clawing and scratching to survive for five minutes more. That makes you a coward. That makes you a hypocrite. And, with the ease that you're willing to do it with, that makes you a monster.

I don't pity you. I think you're a fool.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 07:17 PM
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[And, if you choose to wage war like a barbarian, you then become a barbarian yourself. You forsake your ideals, you turn your back on what your country stands, losing your rightenousness forever. You become nothing more than a bloodythirsty mob, a pack of rabid animals clawing and scratching to survive for five minutes more. That makes you a coward. That makes you a hypocrite. And, with the ease that you're willing to do it with, that makes you a monster. ] ???????

War is barbaric period. There are no rules. The purpose of war to to kill the enemy period. Break stuff and impose your will on the defeated.

That "will" amy be freedom or tyrany but it is still "your" will.

Terrorist conduct war thru intimidation and fear. They operate outside the moronic "rules" and thus should be treated as such. The Geneva Convention allows immediate execution of soldiers not in uniform. So just kill the terrorist on the spot. That is if you want to follow the rules.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
War is barbaric period. There are no rules. The purpose of war to to kill the enemy period. Break stuff and impose your will on the defeated.

That "will" amy be freedom or tyrany but it is still "your" will.


Which is exactly why there is a clear line of distinction between a war of liberation and a war of oppression. If choose to liberate, and call on the ideals of freedom, than you must remain virtuous and responsible for the rules that come along with, otherwise you fail to achieve your goal.
Otherwise, you aren't liberating, you are instead oppressing.

As a result, if the goal of the Iraq War is to conquer the population, then no rules of conduct need apply. Do whatever you want. If your goal is to liberate the population from bondage and create a Democratic society, then you must also uphold the rule of law...even at our own peril.

Otherwise you fail before you ever begin.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by brimstone735
If your goal is to liberate the population from bondage and create a Democratic society, then you must also uphold the rule of law...even at our own peril.

Otherwise you fail before you ever begin.


Now this has got to be the most contradicting statement ever!

The eradication of an enemy must be done at all costs necessary. We can't, despite what so many people believe, negotiate with this type people.

I'm not calling on the world to like us. Just don't seek the deaths of our children and loved ones. Payback will be Hell!

brimstone,

You sound as though you are taking some mind-altering chemicals the way you ramble on with you liberal rhetoric!

The author of this post was implying, why should terrorists be given the same rights as Americans, when it's the Americans they are out to destroy!

P.S. The only cowards I know of hide behind the flag of liberalism!



[edit on 19/1/05 by Intelearthling]



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by Intelearthling

The eradication of an enemy must be done at all costs necessary. We can't, despite what so many people believe, negotiate with this type people.

You see, this is what i do not understand. This is how genocide happens, "we must eradicate the enemy at all costs and we do not want a system for the supposed enemy to determine whether or not the suspected is actually an enemy" is essentially what is being said by some people here. This is just insanity.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 09:37 PM
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Terrorist Rights in Courts?

Here's the latest on those terrorist rights in court:
JUDGE TO GITMO DETAINEES: BUG OFF


AP notes that he concluded the detainees presented "no viable theory" to support their claim that they are being held in violation of federal laws. Foreign citizens captured and detained outside the United States have no rights under the Constitution or international law, he said.


And the main article she mentions and addresses:
Detainees Can't Challenge Confinement


U.S. District Judge Richard Leon ruled that Congress had authorized the president to order the detention of "enemy combatants" for the duration of the war on terror.

--snip--

"The petitioners are asking this court to do something no federal court has done before: evaluate the legality of the (president's) capture and detention of nonresident aliens, outside the United States, during a time of armed conflict," Leon wrote.

"In the final analysis, the court's role in reviewing the military's decision to capture and detain a nonresident alien is, and must be, highly circumscribed," he wrote.






seekerof

[edit on 19-1-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by Intelearthling
P.S. The only cowards I know of hide behind the flag of liberalism!
[edit on 19/1/05 by Intelearthling]



Oh, that's so sweet. You came all the way into this thread to bug me. Thank you, it makes me feel wanted and well liked. My chorus is growing larger every day. You make me feel special, way deep inside. Although, I see where the disconnect is here, BIG WORD MAKE BRAIN HURT.

So, I'll put it in a way that will be easier for you, ready?

WAR GOOD, WHEN DONE RIGHT.
WAR BAD, WHEN DONE WRONG.

Now, before I send your brain into permenent lockdown mode with such cunning liberal notions as logic and reason, I would like to prepare some color coded flashcards of various sizes and shapes to help you communicate with the outside world better.

People always talk about those dastardly liberal elitists. Well, it's certainly not hard to be considered elite when compared to you.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 09:48 PM
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Originally posted by brimstone735
WAR GOOD, WHEN DONE RIGHT.
WAR BAD, WHEN DONE WRONG.


While I find your response to the neo-con drone amusing, I must disagree with one point, I'll make it easy like you did for the conservatives:

WAR ALWAYS BAD.

Except maybe an underwear clad pillow fight war between teams of cheerleaders.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
WAR ALWAYS BAD.


What about the Nazis? Afghanistan Part Twelve? The Revolutionary War?

It would be wonderful if we all lived in such an advanced state of human consciousness that war was entirely eliminated. But, until Skynet takes over, war is sometimes necessary.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 10:01 PM
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Originally posted by brimstone735
What about the Nazis? Afghanistan Part Twelve? The Revolutionary War?

It would be wonderful if we all lived in such an advanced state of human consciousness that war was entirely eliminated. But, until Skynet takes over, war is sometimes necessary.


I didn't mean war wasn't sometimes necessary, but they were all bad.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by brimstone735

Originally posted by Intelearthling
P.S. The only cowards I know of hide behind the flag of liberalism!
[edit on 19/1/05 by Intelearthling]

You came all the way into this thread to bug me.


I don't think so! You just got in the way!


Thank you, it makes me feel wanted and well liked.


You're a legend in your own mind!


My chorus is growing larger every day.


I don't think solo qualifies as a chorus!


You make me feel special, way deep inside.


You are! Believe me, you really are SPECIAL!


Although, I see where the disconnect is here, BIG WORD MAKE BRAIN HURT.


I'm not here to ease your pain!


So, I'll put it in a way that will be easier for you, ready?

WAR GOOD, WHEN DONE RIGHT.
WAR BAD, WHEN DONE WRONG.


Please tell me where the author of this thread is directly or indirectly talking about war?


Now, before I send your brain into permenent lockdown mode with such cunning liberal notions as logic and reason, I would like to prepare some color coded flashcards of various sizes and shapes to help you communicate with the outside world better.


Whoever you are, I am the outside world looking in!


People always talk about those dastardly liberal elitists. Well, it's certainly not hard to be considered elite when compared to you.


You are lost if you think that a liberal is the least bit elite!



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 11:19 PM
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I thank those for supporting what this thread was originally about. I am not able of course, mentioned that, to view brims replies, however I got the gist of it and well it went way off topic. I tried to bring it back to the topic inhand and some of you made vaild supporting statements, thank you.

I didnt go overboard or get angry with what he said earlier, but to call me a coward or anyone a coward without the decency of knowing who they are and where they have been. Just to clarify one thing about the death and destruction, 90% of that was not by US hands, that was by those oppsoing factions hands, i.e. terrorists, insurgents, taliban, rogue paramilitary serbs, to name a few.

However, I just dont believe that any of these prisoners deserve rights under any flag, for they chose not to follow the laws or the colors of their own flag to begin with. Free will is given to man, how you use it si up to you. How you end up using it determines your destiny and your ending in either peace or in pain. But do not cry for rights and cry inhumane treatment when you give no one else the opportunity to choose their destiny, instead you rape it from them. Most of these factions are Muslim and believe in prayer, before these "terrorists" ripped the lives from innocent people, did they allow them to pray before their last breath? I think not, and now they have comitted or condoned in "acts of" and they scream for mercy and rights. I dont think so.



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