Off duty, black cops in New York feel threat from fellow police

No targeting of Blacks by cops, eh? They're all just criminal thugs that asked for it, right? That's what I'm supposed to believe? The facts say different:

Off duty, black cops in New York feel threat from fellow police

Reuters interviewed 25 African American male officers on the NYPD, 15 of whom are retired and 10 of whom are still serving. All but one said that, when off duty and out of uniform, they had been victims of racial profiling, which refers to using race or ethnicity as grounds for suspecting someone of having committed a crime.

The officers said this included being pulled over for no reason, having their heads slammed against their cars, getting guns brandished in their faces, being thrown into prison vans and experiencing stop and frisks while shopping. The majority of the officers said they had been pulled over multiple times while driving. Five had had guns pulled on them.

I know what conventional wisdom tells us about police brutality... "Comply! Comply!" and all will be good... am I supposed to believe that these officers of the law refused to "comply" and that's why they were treated like animals by their own fellow officers, rather than a citizen with rights, and treated with the dignity and respect due them??? Should I believe that all these officers of the law were doing something "suspicious" and provoked this abuse? Should I believe that all these officers of the law attacked their fellow officers of the law? Should I believe that they did not know the proper way to conduct themselves? ('Cause I don't)

Of course, the next question to ask is what did these officers do about it...

The black officers interviewed said they had been racially profiled by white officers exclusively, and about one third said they made some form of complaint to a supervisor.

And how did the supervisors respond:

All but one said their supervisors either dismissed the complaints or retaliated against them by denying them overtime, choice assignments, or promotions.

That thin blue line... The article goes on to quote a former L.A. police chief (also Black):

"It makes good headlines to say this is occurring, but I don’t think you can validate it until you look into the circumstances they were stopped in," said Bernard Parks, the former chief of the Los Angeles Police Department, who is African American.

"Now if you want to get into the essence of why certain groups are stopped more than others, then you only need to go to the crime reports and see which ethnic groups are listed more as suspects. That’s the crime data the officers are living with."

Of course, one only needs to know that the crime reports and listed suspects are created and compiled by these very officers who are ordered to target Blacks (and other minorities) to question what exactly they really reflect because garbage in and garbage out, right?

What's that? I don't have any evidence that's happening? Oh, but I do:

NYPD captain caught on tape ‘pressuring officer to stop and question more black men because they are more likely to be criminals’

Commanding officer Constantin Tsachas, who works in New York City's transit bureau, was recorded by officer Michael Birch criticizing him for only stopping and searching two black men on the subway in Brooklyn over a nine-month period.

And even though Officer Birch insisted that during his time on patrol he didn't spot any crime being committed by black men, Tsachas says he should be targeting them anyway.

As I said: Garbage in and garbage out. The crime stats are a self-fulfilling prophecy, more accurately reflecting policing patterns; NOT criminal patterns in the Black community or anywhere.

Perspective is everything.

a reply to: Boadicea

Not just cops, but senators too.

a reply to: windword

Thank you for adding that link -- quite pertinent and much appreciated!

a reply to: Boadicea

ok man, repetition is NOT persuasion. how many more threads like these will you make.

we know it, everyone knows it. yes its hidden behind a thin veil of 'equality or freedom'
yes, the laws applies differently to different groups, yes there is racism. yes its appalling a captain could say that about not approaching more black men because they are more likely to be criminals.

all this thread is going to do is re-quote more statistical figures by FBI, local Police etc... as long as there is a disparity in % of crimes committed and the percentage of crimes committed by certain groups in reference to their % in the total US population, then yes. police chiefs will have room to say such nasty things.

the best course of action is to decrease the number of crimes committed by certain groups against their population make up / ratio.

see how i wrote that without mentioning race at all?

that is because there are other minority groups who endure similar treatment as other minority groups, but their crime % is not as staggering, thus less attention on them.

a reply to: Boadicea

I have to admit, this is a valid argument when taken at face value. Cops can't say they are not targeting when off duty black cops are targeted. You have to believe one or the other since they are all cops, or maybe it's a case of "shades of blue?" I don't know, it certainly sounds like the policies are off, but only because there is a higher preponderance of black crime per capita.

I like fishing for trout, Brook/Speckled trout specifically. Before I go fishing I am going to look at, or profile, all the lakes and streams I could fish to determine what would give me the best catch yield. I like those particular trout for the fight and because I know where they are. Is that a kind of profiling, sure it is. We all do it. Guys go to bars where they have a higher probability of getting the nice looking girl, is that profiling? Sure it is. Women go to places to meet men who have the highest probability of satisfying their emotional, financial and security needs, is that profiling? Sure it is.

Our lives are based on subjective perception tied to subjective needs and wants, of course we are going to be discriminating, we want what we want, not what someone else necessarily says we want. Profiling is a part of life, it allows you to put aside all that you don't want and focus on a more reasonable set of choices. In the police industry it allows them to focus on higher probabilities in crime related matters. Is it fair? Probably not. Is it realistic? Yes it is.

There is also possibly a carried genetic or learned impetus for battle, across all human breeds. I saw this the most in Africa. No tribe would allow itself, if it had the strength and numbers, to be ruled by any other tribe. Within the tribe as well, there was always the challenge, the fight to be the alpha male. This is well demonstrated between black and Hispanic gangs, this tribal kind of warfare for territories, cash and women.

In the end, I dunno. I really dislike profiling and stereotypes, but they are facets of human nature, a survival mechanism and it's not smart to screw too much with nature. If and when the crime stats equalize and all human breeds have the same kind of crime numbers per capita, all this crap will hopefully stop. Until then, it is up to the people to sort out their own individual groups, change has to be wanted and self motivated, it can't be contrived or forced by someone else.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: odzeandennz
a reply to: Boadicea

ok man, repetition is NOT persuasion. how many more threads like these will you make.

As many as I feel appropriate and necessary.... and I'm figuring as long as it's still happening, and as long as so many folks insist on denying that it's happening, it may be quite a few. If that's a problem for you, okay; I'm sure you know how to keep scrolling.

we know it, everyone knows it.

Apparently not, given the widespread of denial of these facts not just here on ATS, but pretty much all over.

all this thread is going to do is re-quote more statistical figures by FBI, local Police etc... as long as there is a disparity in % of crimes committed and the percentage of crimes committed by certain groups in reference to their % in the total US population, then yes. police chiefs will have room to say such nasty things.

that is because there are other minority groups who endure similar treatment as other minority groups, but their crime % is not as staggering, thus less attention on them.

Didn't read the OP did you? Allow me to reiterate:

Of course, one only needs to know that the crime reports and listed suspects are created and compiled by these very officers who are ordered to target Blacks (and other minorities) to question what exactly they really reflect because garbage in and garbage out, right?

The crime stats are a self-fulfilling prophecy, more accurately reflecting policing patterns; NOT criminal patterns in the Black community or anywhere.

Those crime stats are determined by the policing patterns of the police... nothing more and nothing less. If the police -- and their policing patterns -- are targeting a specific demographic, then those stats are going to reflect that pattern.

If you want to make pretty excuses, okay. You can do that -- obviously. And if I want to make a gazillion threads about it, I can do that too.

a reply to: Boadicea

White/black White/black White/black White/black White/black White/black


Geezus..

The crime stats are a self-fulfilling prophecy, more accurately reflecting policing patterns; NOT criminal patterns in the Black community or anywhere.

Hardly.. for you to actually believe this you would have to believe that ghettos aren't totally infested with crime.

Black crime is only a consequence of police profiling blacks? Do you really, really actually believe this? How hard do you want this to be true?

We have no history of institutional racism here in Sweden yet blacks are still highly overrepresented in crime. And almost all Swedes have the typical liberal white self-negating attitude, they're all viciously "anti-racist". How does that work? They have all the opportunities in the World here. People bend themselves over backwards to make them feel at home yet they still choose to sell hash and throw rocks at police. We never had ghettos here before but now we do have them regardless of how generous our welfare state is. They want to live the "gangsta" lifestyle and in wanting this so bad they have in turn created ghettos. They emulate their American brethren.. great role models.

Pfft... more mindless rationalisations. Why don't you face the facts instead!

a reply to: Boadicea

im not the one making excuses when i clearly state the behavior exists. and give my opinion on how to control this disparity.

you on the other hand quoted and article from dec 2014 on under cover police.

its not rocket science.

blacks commit less crimes = their case for exposure on profiling will be more valid.
until then, every thread will will be refuted by simple statistical figures. and no, dont tell me those stats are all erroneous.
thats just a cop out to look at 15% of a population and the figures of crimes committed. ok, lets say, those stats have a 1%, ill give you a 10% of error margin, guess what. that group of minority is still leading the way ahead of any other minority groups.

deny that.
oh, im black too mate. i just like to look at the source of why these cops target certain groups, or why that police chief said those disgusting statements.

'Change starts with US'

originally posted by: Boadicea

Those crime stats are determined by the policing patterns of the police... nothing more and nothing less. If the police -- and their policing patterns -- are targeting a specific demographic, then those stats are going to reflect that pattern.

You would have to be out of your goddamn mind to actually believe this crap.

So you think Asians would be the new blacks if only police started profiling them just as much as blacks? Do you actually believe that?

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: Boadicea

I don't know, it certainly sounds like the policies are off, but only because there is a higher preponderance of black crime per capita.

There was a time I would have agreed... but this is exactly why I can no longer believe that. If police are targeting Blacks, then of course their numbers are much higher in crime stats. But that reflects patterns of policing far more than patterns of criminal behavior.

If we take it to the extreme, and police ONLY looked at Blacks as criminals, then the stats would ONLY reflect "Black" criminals.... but it wouldn't be true to say that only Blacks are criminals.

I like fishing for trout, Brook/Speckled trout specifically. Before I go fishing I am going to look at, or profile, all the lakes and streams I could fish to determine what would give me the best catch yield.

Using your analogy, if you decided that one stream was the most likely to give you the best catch yield, and only went to that one stream, then your data would only be applicable to that one stream... you would have no other data because you targeted that one stream. Therefore your data would reflect your fishing patterns, NOT the patterns of fishing in all streams and lakes.

Our lives are based on subjective perception tied to subjective needs and wants, of course we are going to be discriminating, we want what we want, not what someone else necessarily says we want. Profiling is a part of life, it allows you to put aside all that you don't want and focus on a more reasonable set of choices. In the police industry it allows them to focus on higher probabilities in crime related matters. Is it fair? Probably not. Is it realistic? Yes it is.

Justice is based on facts and evidence and truth... not subjective perceptions and willful whims. There is no excuse for subjective policing. It violates every principle this nation was founded upon and denies justice.

There is also possibly a carried genetic or learned impetus for battle, across all human breeds. I saw this the most in Africa. No tribe would allow itself, if it had the strength and numbers, to be ruled by any other tribe. Within the tribe as well, there was always the challenge, the fight to be the alpha male. This is well demonstrated between black and Hispanic gangs, this tribal kind of warfare for territories, cash and women.

Yes, turf wars have always been a thing... but before I blame a throwback survival gene, I would look at the well-documented lead poisoning in the inner cities (including -- perhaps especially! -- federal housing) and the well-documented effects of that lead poisoning, especially the mental and cognitive impairment, as well as the violent tendencies as a coping strategy. We could then consider the illicit drug industry, aided and abetted by our federal government and the money laundering banks.

In the end, I dunno. I really dislike profiling and stereotypes, but they are facets of human nature, a survival mechanism and it's not smart to screw too much with nature.

Indeed... just like fight or flight is a survival mechanism which is being screwed with daily... and it's not too smart. It got us to where we are today.

If and when the crime stats equalize and all human breeds have the same kind of crime numbers per capita, all this crap will hopefully stop.

That cannot and will not happen until policing is color blind.

Until then, it is up to the people to sort out their own individual groups, change has to be wanted and self motivated, it can't be contrived or forced by someone else.

I think that's exactly the problem with these policing patterns. Someone wants it this way.

ETA: P.S. Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful reply. These are things we need to examine and discuss and consider to find better ways. I really appreciate it.

a reply to: Boadicea

No, because the people being profiled would actually have to be perpetrators of crime otherwise all this profiling would only amount to bothering innocent people. Or are you suggesting that all these blacks being arrested for crimes are being falsely accused? I seriously doubt that.

a reply to: Boadicea
hell I profile everybody.. if you look sketchy, I keep my eye on you, white, black, yellow, or brown, I don't give a rats a**.
don't look sketchy lol

a reply to: odzeandennz

...that police chief said those disgusting statements.

At least you admit that much.

You have every right to believe what you want to believe. You have every right to come to whatever conclusions you choose regarding the information at hand. So do I. And it is what it is.

This sort of thing has to be a locational issue. I'm sure there are places in states where the town is predominantly African American/Black...what not. Neighborhoods with Jamaican's or other islanders.
Thanks for the OP..
Maybe tourists can boycott these areas where even officers of color are being harassed... no money flow..then what could they do?.. peaceful protest against supremacy in law ranks.
Not all cops are bad and not all citizens of color are bad or beneath any other human being...
Lots to ponder.

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

You would have to be out of your goddamn mind to actually believe this crap.

So you think Asians would be the new blacks if only police started profiling them just as much as blacks? Do you actually believe that?

If police targeted Asians -- and only Asians -- then their crime stats would only reflect Asians. Yes?

If police began targeting Asians at the same rate they target Blacks, then yes, their crime stats would reflect that.

If police are targeting one or more specific demographics, then police have that much less time and opportunity and INCLINATION to give to Whites, and yes, their crime stats would reflect that.

originally posted by: peppycat
This sort of thing has to be a locational issue.

Definitely. It starts at the top. I don't believe this is true universally for one minute. But it is obviously true in some places and departments.

Maybe tourists can boycott these areas where even officers of color are being harassed... no money flow..then what could they do?

My fear there is that if tourist revenue dried up, that revenue would be made up by targeting the people even more. Police unions and fraternities and even many officers themselves have shown their complete contempt for the people already -- slow downs, turning their back on the mayor at an officer's funeral, walking out on a security job for the WNBA because they didn't like the players showing support for BLM. It seems that too many of those who took an oath to protect and serve feel no compunction to fulfill their oath.

Not all cops are bad and not all citizens of color are bad or beneath any other human being...
Lots to ponder.

That's the takeaway. Studies have shown that a relatively few officers are responsible for the vast majority of brutality complaints, lawsuits, and settlements. I believe that more officers would stand up and speak out if more people were willing to listen and support them.

Definitely much to ponder!

Thanks for such a thoughtful reply

a reply to: Boadicea

Yes, and most people they would target would be innocent.

This is one of the most irrational arguments I've come across in this debate. It simply assumes that everyone targeted would automatically be guilty.

Again, if they went after Asians most of the people targeted would be innocent. It probably wouldn't change a thing.

You also simply ignore the existence of black ghettos that are infested with crime. Are they simply a figment of our imagination? They are as real as the crime within them are. Are Chinatowns infested with crime? Aside from the occasional Triad group I don't think so.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: odzeandennz

...that police chief said those disgusting statements.

At least you admit that much.

You have every right to believe what you want to believe. You have every right to come to whatever conclusions you choose regarding the information at hand. So do I. And it is what it is.

sounds like a typical Blm argument. believe what you want despite otherwise proven.
this is why Guliani can say 90% of blacks are killed by blacks and he's not wrong, denial is our greatest enemy. we can't police ourselves then this will be the results.

I live near a very big Indian community in OC and some are as black as me, guess how many racial profiling cases reported by Indians to to chp.

I live in little Saigon. Vietnamese capital in America. guess their numbers...

Blm should be marching in Chicago right now, because as I write this 1.2 black males lost their lives for no reason other than giving more stats to refute police mistreatment of Black's.

I think you get clearly what I'm trying to say. and I've also commented as honestly in your other threads with valid arguments.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: odzeandennz

...that police chief said those disgusting statements.

At least you admit that much.

You have every right to believe what you want to believe. You have every right to come to whatever conclusions you choose regarding the information at hand. So do I. And it is what it is.

sounds like a typical Blm argument. believe what you want despite otherwise proven.
this is why Guliani can say 90% of blacks are killed by blacks and he's not wrong, denial is our greatest enemy. we can't police ourselves then this will be the results.

I live near a very big Indian community in OC and some are as black as me, guess how many racial profiling cases reported by Indians to to chp.

I live in little Saigon. Vietnamese capital in America. guess their numbers...

Blm should be marching in Chicago right now, because as I write this 1.2 black males lost their lives for no reason other than giving more stats to refute police mistreatment of Black's.

I think you get clearly what I'm trying to say. and I've also commented as honestly in your other threads with valid arguments.