Free Will Revisited - The Birth of a Child

Originally posted by ninki
amazing? well actually i answered this before, when people in the bible saw god, they saw jesus! that is the way to the father! when they saw the father they saw the glory, and that only partial, hence the reason they had to hide their face in a rock, and only got a glimpse of his splendor! why is this so hard for you to understand? you will one day see his face as well!

on the issue of being there for the crucifiction, no i was not there... but jesus was the old testament fullfillment of prophecy, the messiah..when you look at his life it was completing the dance started in the old testament, so if you feel better i will say this is my opinion!

Jesus was not born yet in Exodus.

I guess I should start doing this so things can be checked:

Can you see God?

No

Exodus 33:20
John 1:18
John 6:46
1 Timothy 1:17
1 Timothy 6:16
1 John 4:12

Or Yes...

Gen 12:7
Gen 17:1
Gen 18:1
Gen 26:2
Gen 26:24
Gen 32:30
Gen 35:1
Gen 35:7
Gen 35:9
Gen 48:3
Ex 3:16
Ex 4:5
Ex 6:3
Ex 24:9-11
Ex 33:11
Ex 33:23
Num 14:14
Dt 5:4
Dt 34:10
Jg 13:22
1 Kg 22:19
Job 42:5


Ugh, there are like 20 more at least...

I want every christian reading this to stringently check this information. Read into it very hard. Then, I can't wait for you to come back here and tell me why this is not what the bible said.....


[edit on 1/21/2005 by Seapeople]

alright here i am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
when it is stated that we cannot see the face of god and live that is accurate! god in his glory is unaproachable...we have only seen glimpses of his glory.when we have seen the face of god it is jesus that we see.
john says that jesus is the word of god made flesh, and that the word was in the beginning.
in the beginning was the word and the word was with god!
of course jesus was not born before the exodus.!!! jesus was before abraham, was before adam, was before time! he was not born and yet he lived. jesus was the beginning and the end....alpha omega...

I am sorry to do this to you ninki, because you are a good person, but I have to point out something. You responded to what I posted without checking. You said, in your response, that it is not possible for us to see the face of God.

Get out your KJV 1611 to check this...I am going to write what the bible says:

Ex.33:20
"Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me and live."

Vrs.

Ex.33:11
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Thats pretty freeking specific)

Or try this one:

Jn.1:18
"No man hath seen God at any time."

Vrs.

Gen.32:30
"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

All of those verses in the Bible I provided in the previous post above are like that. Read them in context, they mean what they say. How then, could they both be right? Job, while still alive was rewarded for his ordeals by sitting with God. Read his story in the book of Job. Yet, it clearly is stated that no-one can see his face and live. All the while Jacob and moses saw him..."face to face".

God had not yet taken human form.....the bible predicts he will at this point, but it has not occured. For you to say that it was really Jesus that they saw is wrong. Nowhere in the Bible does it say or even give that idea. That is a completely fabricated response. One fabricated not from the bible, but from your own oppinion and desire to right the wrongs in the bible. You said to me...why can't you understand... All I do is read and tell you whats written. I add and subtract and tell you the answers. You on the other hand distort and oppinionize to achieve your points. Yet you ask me why I can't understand. When christians stop acting in this way, I will stop pointing out problems to them. When they accept the fact that the doctrine that they live by is flawed, then I will accept their beliefs as their own and even as genuine. AS it stands now, all christians are a product of those who preach to them because they do not question authority.



[edit on 1/21/2005 by Seapeople]

[edit on 1/21/2005 by Seapeople]

these apparent visitations of the Father were really the Son appearing in the Father's stead as His prime representative in all things. i call these appearances "Christophanies". i believe jesus was the word made flesh! was the child born to mary! was before abraham! walked with adam! and will be the name lifted above every name that will bring me into his glory!
Despite the fact that no one has ever seen the Father while on this earth we are told that the elders saw the God of Israel with Moses and Aaron Ex.24:9 and we know that Moses entered the cloud of glory and spoke with the Lord on Sinai. he petitioned the Lord to "show me Your glory" a request He granted! Moses also saw "the form of the Lord" and we know that unlike any other servant of the Lord, Moses spoke with Him "face to face".This is once again the Angel of the Lord,and not the actual presence of the Father, but the appearance of the One who is sent by Him, who speaks for Him, and who has undertaken to fulfill His plan of salvation in this world, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, appearing in pre-incarnate Christophany."

here are some scriptures for you to look at and think about.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." (jesus) john 1:14

"In the beginning was the Word,(jesus) and the Word (jesus) was with God, and the Word (jesus) was God (jesus). The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him (jesus is the creator god)" john 1:1

Jesus is the only way to the Father!!!! whom "no one has seen at any time" but if you have seen Jesus, you "have seen the Father"

I need to point out something to you. Again, don't take offense to this. You are a good person.

No-where in teh bible does it say, Moses saw God face to face in the form of Jesus.

That is an oppinion. What you are referring to in the Gospel of John is something that is contradictory to moses seeing him face to face. Like I pointed out before, and had you deny it, you pick and choose what you want to believe out of the bible....and disregard or morph the rest to fit. You choose to believe something that was never said in the bible.

#1 God is not the author of confusion.

#2 Revelation tells you NOT TO ADD TO SCRIPTURE.

Saying something that wasn't written is adding to scripture.

let there be no confusion then! read what god says in his word, he is the way to the father, i did not make this christophany thing up john did! dont you see? jesus is the word made flesh! and the word was in the beginning! i dont know how to make it any clearer to you, i pray that you will drop your hatred of christians, you are also a nice person but nice dont cut it in the end my friend! i will post more later i gotta fly!

Originally posted by ninki
let there be no confusion then! read what god says in his word, he is the way to the father, i did not make this christophany thing up john did! dont you see? jesus is the word made flesh! and the word was in the beginning! i dont know how to make it any clearer to you, i pray that you will drop your hatred of christians, you are also a nice person but nice dont cut it in the end my friend! i will post more later i gotta fly!

The bible says specifically that moses saw God face to face. John says specifically that it is impossible. The problem you fail to see is that no where does john say that this person Moses saw was actually Jesus. I is your assumption with no written word to make this correct.

You have to contradicting statements in the bible. You choose to believe one of them, and ignore the other. You can say that Moses saw jesus until you are blue in the face, but thats not what the bible says.

OK, I am about to babble on, just to warn you, because I have thought a great deal about this subject.
1. Free will vs. fate should be looked at more as personal, not as much as if you're a Christian, you have to believe in fate. Especially because the bible is always open to interpretation.
2. To look at Jonna's response, human nature is sin. All sin can be followed to man's natural selfishness, for that matter, so can most of the world's evil. One of the ideas behind Christianity is that we must rise above our worldly selves and be able to resist urges we might have. Serial killers are a prime example of people who give in to their urges almost fully, so de we really want to be like them. The stipulations on sex are in fact reasonable and logical, because sex outside marriage has caused all kinds of problems, with all the STIs and whatnot. BUt that does not at all mean sex within marriage is wrong, God wanted us to spread throughout, and that in some beliefs, when u didn't God actually took it as an insult.
3. I personally believe that God is a mathmetician, and a physicist, and though i don't believe entirely in numberology, I do believe the answer lies in that general direction. I think that God created some sort of perfect equation so that no matter what, we would end up doing what he wanted. Now how much free will that leaves us, I'm not real sure. I just think that that is how he manages to have his hand in everything. I hope that makes sense, the x-files helped me to put that into words.
4. Now, the issue of sin being a part of the"master plan," I've came upon a realization which was showed to me be certain texts called the Qumran scrolls, or Dead Sea Scrolls as some know them. THere is a specific scroll, or text that speaks of the creation, though I'm sure it is someone's philosophy, it is pretty much ingenious nonetheless. In it, it begins by stating that God created light and dark for himself, not for us, and that God is both good and bad, or light and dark. He then distinguished between the two for our sakes, for our limited intelligence. When he did this, all creation was doubled. Which is why we supposedly have good and evil, right and wrong, black and white, night and day.
So essentially what this means is that ggod and bad are both inevitable and balanced, that if you don't do it, someone else will. More or less yin and yang stuff. I don't remember where i was going with this, i'm half asleep and probably should have wrote during the day, i hope that last one wasn't just useless babble and that you got something from it.

just a quick comment, i think seeing the face of God and living is relevant to who is seeing God, and whether they be worthy. But then again, the bible was wrote by many different people, so it's tough to tell which is right, and what is supposed to have allegorical meaning.