Free Will Revisited - The Birth of a Child

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posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 09:32 AM
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There are some things that steer me away from religions of all kinds. Nothing does this more than one base belief. Christianity will be what I focus on here only because of its presence in my personal life. I have talked about this before, but I want to get specific explanations from people.


Simple Scenerio:

Two teenagers (Tom and Jane) have pre-marital sex. The girl gets pregnant, and goes through with having the child.

Lets look at exactly what happened here. Two teenagers commited a sin. As a result, they had a child out of wedlock. The child was to them, an accident, whether or not they grow happy with it or not.

Now, I am driving at a point that I try very hard to make on this board quite often. Lets see how long it takes for everyone to figure it out.

Expanded scenerio according to Chritianity:
Tom and Jane had premarital sex, and had a child as a result. Even though it may have been an accident on Tom and Janes part, it was all part of Gods plan. It was Gods will for that child to be born.

Now, most christians stop right there, and explore no further. That willingness to stop bothers me to such a great deal that I cannot explain because the consequences of going further are severely damning. (which is why they dont explore further...they know what they will find, but do not want to)

Super Expanded Christian Scenerio After Exploring:
God knew at the instant the Universe was created all of Tom and Janes life. He knew all they would do. He knew all of their childs life, and all of what he/she would do. God knew ahead of time that Tom and Jane would be sinful. He knew they would have sex, and as a result, have a child, born in sin, out of wedlock. After all he planned it. Its all part of his plan right (as I have heard so many times). He planned their sin!!! How could they have "freely chosen to have sex" if he planned it? If he knew ahead of time? What kind of thought process is that? It is lunacy. God planned every one of our lives from the very beginning. If this is true, then God knew that when he created lucifer, he would revolt..and god would as a result make hell and send loved ones there. He knew ahead of time the choices every single person alive would make.....made them anyway...and watched them all drown slowly as he killed them for something he was responsible for anyway. That is sick. Noahs ark is sick. Adam and eve...sickning. All these stories are sick..and no person who loves another would ever do these things to them...especially if they had the power to do anything.



So, I am going to ask a very specific question. I want an answer from a christian.

How can we have free will, if it is all part of Gods plan from the beginning? How can we have it, if me writing this very letter questioning the motives of God (a damning act) has been planned out by God since the very beginning of time?

There is no answer by the way (*because its lunacy)...but try all you want.


P.S. I just want to complain one more time about the idiocy of refusing to question further when it comes to these issues. The refusal, (only refused because everyone knows what answers they will find), is a sign of mental distress. Its almost like when someone BLOCKS OUT something from their past as a way to deal with it.



[edit on 1/18/2005 by Seapeople]




posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
Lets look at exactly what happened here. Two teenagers commited a sin. As a result, they had a child out of wedlock. The child was to them, an accident, whether or not they grow happy with it or not.


There is your first problem. How is it a sin to do what is in human nature to do? This supposed god gives you the biological urge to have sexual relations and then places all sorts of stipulations on it. Not very logical if you ask me.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by Seapeople
Lets look at exactly what happened here. Two teenagers commited a sin. As a result, they had a child out of wedlock. The child was to them, an accident, whether or not they grow happy with it or not.


There is your first problem. How is it a sin to do what is in human nature to do? This supposed god gives you the biological urge to have sexual relations and then places all sorts of stipulations on it. Not very logical if you ask me.


I understand exactly what you are saying, but I am trying to provide a perspective that isnt mine. I have trouble accepting something of that nature as being wrong, when it is necessary. I also though, have taken a great amount of time trying to figure out why it was posed as something wrong.

Here is what I have come up with.

Th obvious: Back then they didn't know about STD's...but they did know about getting pregnant as a result.

Not so obvious: Whenever you are in a relationship...is it comforting to think of your loved one sleeping with someone else. It should, if you are normal, make you uneasy even if it was in the past. Think about it. There is more to it...if you want me to continue on my thoughts.

Those guys got jealous just as we do today. They wanted a "pure" wife. So, it was considered wrong to have sex before marraige due to not only the physical consequences, but the mental ones as well.

So, in closing, men felt betrayed if they found out that the one they loved had had sex...even before they were in the picture. Men felt as if women were posessions. A lot goes into it...but this is a start.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 05:32 PM
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there has never been a greater assault to justice than when Gods own Son, the only perfect person to ever live, was put to death, on a cross for the sin of people who hated him! although now we understand that it was all central to Gods plan to redeem the world, we dont always know the why??? God is sovereign even when we cant figure out whats happening!
God brings good out of something bad. Whether we understand Gods big picture of how things work out, make no mistake God is in control, He knows what Hes doing.
we are chosen by God and we come to god out of our own free will, both things are the truth....its kind of like your (tom and jane) are on board a ship with many other passengers. On the ship theyre completely free to move about at will, they can eat, sleep, play. or they can sit in their room having pre marital sex! all the while the ship is carrying them steadily toward their destination. Both freedom and sovereignty are at work here they dont contradict each other. they are both at work in your life aboard the ship called "life" and the baby that jane and tom have together will most likely turn into someone great on the ship!



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 06:13 PM
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As a Christian, I have come to the same conclusion; that we don't have free will. If it is mapped out already, then free-will is an illusion. No matter what we choose, then that path has already been decided, therefore it never was our decision. Even the free-will of choosing to accept Jesus as a savior is bogus, because the Bible clearly states that God knows who his children are, or who belongs to him, and unto Satan. Figuring all this out, at least, brings some insight into why bad things happen to good people. It really isn't our fault, but God's alone. Yes, I blame him for everything that happens the same as I would blame a CEO for bankrupting a corporation. If you are in a position of authority, then obviously you get to take the heat when the chips fall. Why do people accept bad things that happen, but not blame God? I find it hard to believe that Satan is the scapegoat, as even he was one of God's creations.

Now that I know who is to blame, it irritates me more as to what the actualy purpose of all this is. Why create a matrix world where there is a lot of suffering? What is God trying to teach us? Love? While I admire the idealism of Love, it is a difficult pursuit in that the supposed payoff happens in a Godly realm that no man has ever lived to talk about.......er well unless you count St. John. I believe there must be some unfathomable purpose to all this, but for now, I have not a clue what it must be or how it will benefit us.

EDIT: How would it be if we taught kids in school this way? Never tell them the purpose of what they are learning and how it will benefit them. Just spew out a lot of information for them to learn from without telling them how to use it.

[edit on 18-1-2005 by ben91069]



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 07:13 PM
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Yes, God knew those teenagers were going to sin and a child would be born. He DID NOT plan for it to happen. It was the teenagers free will choice to have sex. As a result of that choice a child was born.

God does know everything that has happened. But not because he makes it happen that way but because he is God and omnipresent and omniscient.

I also believe that God does have a plan for each one of us. How we should fit into our world and life to make it better for everyone. But, we have free choice and so most of us usually go our own way without trying to find out what God created us to be.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by ninki
there has never been a greater assault to justice than when God?s own Son, the only perfect person to ever live, was put to death, on a cross for the sin of people who hated him! although now we understand that it was all central to God?s plan to redeem the world, we dont always know the why??? God is sovereign even when we can?t figure out what?s happening!
God brings good out of something bad. Whether we understand God?s big picture of how things work out, make no mistake God is in control, He knows what He?s doing.
we are chosen by God and we come to god out of our own free will, both things are the truth....its kind of like your (tom and jane) are on board a ship with many other passengers. On the ship they?re completely free to move about at will, they can eat, sleep, play. or they can sit in their room having pre marital sex! all the while the ship is carrying them steadily toward their destination. Both freedom and sovereignty are at work here they don?t contradict each other. they are both at work in your life aboard the ship called "life" and the baby that jane and tom have together will most likely turn into someone great on the ship!



Hypothetical:

If Tom and Jane are on the ship called Godsplan, and they are free to move about, there are a few problems. Lets just assume God's plan is for them to have a baby. Well, first they must be married for it to be Gods plan. So what if they are not? Well, God's plan COLD NOT BE to have them have premarital sex. God's plan COULD NOT be for them to sin. Would you say this is correct? Would you say that it is correct that God's plan could not be for someone to sin since he desires all of us to be with him? If it was his plan, then we get back to the point, they didn't have a choice. The ship may be going somewhere, but what happens in it is irrelevant and uncontrollable. If Tom and Jane end up having a baby, it isn't going to change the ships direction. So where does the baby fit into God's plan? How can God have planned a sin for a human to make...because that IS THE ONLY WAY that this can make sense. God plans it, so uit is not their choice...not their choice to commit a sin...on a ship that really doesn't care what they do.

The only saving plot that could work is that God does not know when Tom and Jane are going to sin. He does not plan the baby. That way, tom and jane can sin, with free will.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 09:46 PM
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Originally posted by ben91069
As a Christian, I have come to the same conclusion; that we don't have free will. If it is mapped out already, then free-will is an illusion. No matter what we choose, then that path has already been decided, therefore it never was our decision. Even the free-will of choosing to accept Jesus as a savior is bogus, because the Bible clearly states that God knows who his children are, or who belongs to him, and unto Satan. Figuring all this out, at least, brings some insight into why bad things happen to good people. It really isn't our fault, but God's alone. Yes, I blame him for everything that happens the same as I would blame a CEO for bankrupting a corporation. If you are in a position of authority, then obviously you get to take the heat when the chips fall. Why do people accept bad things that happen, but not blame God? I find it hard to believe that Satan is the scapegoat, as even he was one of God's creations.

Now that I know who is to blame, it irritates me more as to what the actualy purpose of all this is. Why create a matrix world where there is a lot of suffering? What is God trying to teach us? Love? While I admire the idealism of Love, it is a difficult pursuit in that the supposed payoff happens in a Godly realm that no man has ever lived to talk about.......er well unless you count St. John. I believe there must be some unfathomable purpose to all this, but for now, I have not a clue what it must be or how it will benefit us.

EDIT: How would it be if we taught kids in school this way? Never tell them the purpose of what they are learning and how it will benefit them. Just spew out a lot of information for them to learn from without telling them how to use it.

[edit on 18-1-2005 by ben91069]
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First off, you could not be christian with that point of view. You must believe that you have free will to accept jesus to be christian. Rather, you are hopeless, because you do not believe in free will. You feel that it doesn't mater what you do, because its already been scripted, hence if your going to heaven, you are, if you are going to kill someone and go to hell...its not your fault.

By the way, you said that you blame god for everything, just as you would blame a CEO. That makes no sense...since according to what you said "I blame god for everything", that CEO had no choice, and you could only blame God.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by Mahree
Yes, God knew those teenagers were going to sin and a child would be born. He DID NOT plan for it to happen. It was the teenagers free will choice to have sex. As a result of that choice a child was born.

God does know everything that has happened. But not because he makes it happen that way but because he is God and omnipresent and omniscient.

I also believe that God does have a plan for each one of us. How we should fit into our world and life to make it better for everyone. But, we have free choice and so most of us usually go our own way without trying to find out what God created us to be.



Are you saying that god may have a plan for us, but we still have free will to choose? Lets look deeper into what you said. I want to first point out that you said...GOD KNOWS EVERTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED. Not everything that will happen. Before that you said, God knew the teens would sin. Thats a contradiction of epic proportions when discussing this subject.

So, God has a plan for us to "fit into"? In other words we have a loose line to follow? So again to a point I will make again. If god has a hand in every living creature, and its creation, including the child Tom and Jane made, then he has a hand in their sins. His hands are not clean in this scenerio, and no matter what you say, there is no way around it. You, like most christians, refuse to answer this question. How can God plan for this child? How could he plan FOR A SIN? If he PLANS FOR A SIN, we have no free will to choose. If God created this Baby, then Tom and Jane should snub their noses at him...and refuse to ask for forgiveness...they didn't have a choice. Who had the choice though? God did. He chose to send people to hell. He chose to hurt people. That is the inevitable consequence of your line of thought. There is NO WAY AROUND IT.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople

Originally posted by Mahree

Are you saying that god may have a plan for us, but we still have free will to choose? Lets look deeper into what you said.


God created us in His image. God is Love. Each individual is unique. Each with talents unique to him/her. If we used these talents with love and with Gods guidance we would have a perfect world.


I want to first point out that you said...GOD KNOWS EVER THING THAT HAS HAPPENED. Not everything that will happen. Before that you said, God knew the teens would sin. Thats a contradiction of epic proportions when discussing this subject.


First of all, God IS God. He doesn't operate in the same time dimension as we do. He is omnipresent. This would mean that He is everywhere at all times. So, He could be at the conception of that baby and at the beginning of creation at the same time. God knows it when it happens which to us would seem as though he knows it before it happens.

Also, God knows all things. God at the beginning of our lives knows all the choices we will make. He doesn't make them for us, but He knows what we will do.




So, God has a plan for us to "fit into"? In other words we have a loose line to follow? So again to a point I will make again. If god has a hand in every living creature, and its creation, including the child Tom and Jane made, then he has a hand in their sins. His hands are not clean in this scenerio, and no matter what you say, there is no way around it.


If God took away our right for free choice then your above statement might be true. Because Adam and Eve sinned there is sin in our world, called original sin. This life is no bed of roses. We can be hurt or killed by others "free choice". We deal with nature and natural disasters. This is life. And in this life we have a choice as to how we will live it.

Are you saying that God caused Tom and Janes sin?


You, like most christians, refuse to answer this question. How can God plan for this child? How could he plan FOR A SIN?

This child was given a soul when he/she was created. There is nothing sinful about this child. Tom and Janes sin resulting in this child did not make this child a sin.


If he PLANS FOR A SIN, we have no free will to choose. If God created this Baby, then Tom and Jane should snub their noses at him...and refuse to ask for forgiveness...they didn't have a choice.

God loves all life. Tom and Jane did have a choice and they made the wrong one for them. This child was the result. God knew this would happen. Remember omnipresent. If God had stopped Tom and Jane/no free choice.

Who had the choice though? God did. He chose to send people to hell. He chose to hurt people. That is the inevitable consequence of your line of thought. There is NO WAY AROUND IT.


I'm sorry but I do not agree with your analysis.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 11:34 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople

Originally posted by ben91069
snip
[edit on 18-1-2005 by ben91069]
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First off, you could not be christian with that point of view. You must believe that you have free will to accept jesus to be christian. Rather, you are hopeless, because you do not believe in free will. You feel that it doesn't mater what you do, because its already been scripted, hence if your going to heaven, you are, if you are going to kill someone and go to hell...its not your fault.

By the way, you said that you blame god for everything, just as you would blame a CEO. That makes no sense...since according to what you said "I blame god for everything", that CEO had no choice, and you could only blame God.


Have you heard of Calvinism? Not all Christians believe in free-will. Some believe God has chosen, or "pre-destined" everything. Doesnt make any sense to me. Hell, im not even all powerful and I still could have created a better world than the Christian God did.



posted on Jan, 18 2005 @ 11:56 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
First off, you could not be christian with that point of view.


Fortunately, that is up to God to decide. I only know what I read in the Bible, not what I have heard from a pastor.




You must believe that you have free will to accept jesus to be christian.


If we have free will, then why did Jesus, who was equal to his Father suggest that his curse (the crucifixtion) be taken away? He said, not of my will, but yours. If God would not even let his own son off the hook by his will, then how much less will he allow us to do with our free will?




Rather, you are hopeless, because you do not believe in free will. You feel that it doesn't mater what you do, because its already been scripted, hence if your going to heaven, you are, if you are going to kill someone and go to hell...its not your fault.


Rather, my salvation is not hopeless. I am following the example of Christ who, as he was about to die, questioned God by saying "Father, why have you forsaken me?" If Jesus was equal to God, then why wouldn't he already know the answer to this or do you just selectively read the parts that require no critical thinking?




By the way, you said that you blame god for everything, just as you would blame a CEO. That makes no sense...since according to what you said "I blame god for everything", that CEO had no choice, and you could only blame God.


Of course it makes no sense. It was an analogy referring to the fact that if I would hold a CEO accountable over a corporation, then how much more would I hold God accountable for everything he created. Are you really suggesting that Satan invented evil, and if so, how does one create something new apart from everything that already exists. If Satan could create evil before it existed, then Satan would be above or at least equal to God. It is much easier to believe that God created evil. We already know from what God says, that he created Satan. Satan could not invent evil or discover it unless God made it first. Therefore, in my mind, God is responsible for coming up with the idea of evil in the first place. At the very least, he is responsible for allowing Satan to run amuck. Would you give a hand-grenade to a three year old and see if his free-will leads him to pull the pin or not?



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 09:17 AM
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To Ben,

No, I do not think that satan created evil. If christianity is the correct line of thinking, then God created evil, and god created each of our pathways to hell or heaven...with no line of choice for the individual. I know of your line of thought. To be honest, I respect it even though I disagree. It means you understand the consequences...you question, but you decide to believe anyway.

To Mahree,

The concept of an omnipresent being is impossible. First of all, we all experience time at different ranges and speeds. There is no uniform time for an omnipresent being to be present in. But for a second, I will pretend that there is to make you happy.

God, had to create earth at a point...no matter what. That point was not infinity ago...it was a true point in time. There was CREATION IN THE BIBLE. It doesnt matter when or where. All that matters is that there was creation. At the time of the creation of earth, heaven and hell already existed according to the bible. In the bible, there was a specific point where God cast out lucifer, and hence, a specific time...no matter if it is a time we can experience or not. The angels are not omnipresent, and neither is the universe according to the bible. So they came after an omnipresent God. God created angels (including lucifer), hell, and the universe at a point whether it be in time or not...he created them. Do you not see where this leads you? Time doesn't even matter when creation is figured in. HE CREATED LUCIFER KNOWING THE CONSEQUENCES.

I know that you cannot unerstand that. It is not because you are unintelligent, because I do not know if you are. It is by refusal. Blind by refusal. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Lesson learned...If god creates something, it doesnt matter if he is on the same time scale as us...he still created it knowing the consequences.

Unless we have free will.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
The concept of an omnipresent being is impossible. First of all, we all experience time at different ranges and speeds. There is no uniform time for an omnipresent being to be present in.

Plus where there is no time.. there can be no space [vice verser]. There would be nowhere for a god to exist.. if there were that would not be before creation.. as he'd have exist somewhere within creation.

Sorry if it came out garbled.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 12:13 PM
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It would seem to me that GOD could do or be anything He wants. Why would God have to follow your rules? This does make sense to me. And yes, I do have faith. If He can create the world why couldn't He take care of the time problem you seem to see. Thank you for trying to make me happy?

Originally posted by Seapeople

To Mahree,
The concept of an omnipresent being is impossible. First of all, we all experience time at different ranges and speeds. There is no uniform time for an omnipresent being to be present in. But for a second, I will pretend that there is to make you happy.


OK, here you have a point I need to think about. How about Yes, he knew Lucifer would rebel. Lucifer also had free choice. I guess free choice wouldn't mean anything if you were programed ahead of time. Now, because Lucifer did rebel, and did tempt Eve we also have a chance to make choices in the way we live. To love God or to rebel.

God created angels (including lucifer), hell, and the universe at a point whether it be in time or not...he created them. Do you not see where this leads you? Time doesn't even matter when creation is figured in. HE CREATED LUCIFER KNOWING THE CONSEQUENCES.


No, I can't understand that and so far, you haven't helped me to. You have said that God has to follow the rules of time, etc. So he cannot be omnipresent. I don't think you have proved that. And, you did give me pause about Lucifer and maybe to think about that for awhile. Maybe it is bliss to be ignorant and to have faith in God.


I know that you cannot unerstand that. It is not because you are unintelligent, because I do not know if you are. It is by refusal. Blind by refusal. Ignorance is bliss I guess.


God created us to love him. He wants us to make the choice to love and serve Him. The only way that can happen is if we have free choice.



Lesson learned...If god creates something, it doesnt matter if he is on the same time scale as us...he still created it knowing the consequences.
Unless we have free will.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
To Ben,
I know of your line of thought. To be honest, I respect it even though I disagree. It means you understand the consequences...you question, but you decide to believe anyway.


Well thank you Sea, and I respect other ideas and religions as well, I just disagree also. In fact, civilized debate is constructive if you have an open mind and not disregard what your opponents say as complete nonsense.




To Mahree,

God, had to create earth at a point...no matter what. That point was not infinity ago...it was a true point in time. ........... In the bible, there was a specific point where God cast out lucifer, and hence, a specific time...no matter if it is a time we can experience or not.


I need to respond to this because while it seems to make sense, you are confusing a point in time to events that supposedly happened before the creation of the earth. Time is only a measurement in the physical world and I think you can agree that in the spiritual world, everything is eternal. The Bible does not give a date to when this happened, or even how long it took, for good reason. In a world of infinite time (no beginning or end) time is irrelevant. Time is always relative to a beginning and end. Without a reference, it cannot be measured. All our time is based on the days, years, and seasons - as you know it says God created those for us for a time reference. An hour is based on 1/24th of the cycle of a day. If the length of the day had no beginning or end, then the value of the length of an hour would become an irrational number like pi or phi - it would continue into infinity. This brings me to the point I would like to make that in the spiritual world, an event not only happens instantaneously, it also happens eternally at the same time. I suppose in Heaven, when does not matter, only why and how.




Ignorance is bliss I guess.


Yes, ignorance is bliss......it seems counter-intuitive that the less you know the more blissful life generally becomes, but it is true.




...he still created it knowing the consequences.
Unless we have free will.


There is plenty of evidence in the Bible to suggest that God controls our will and also that he has no control over it. Just another example of inconsistencies in the Bible. Faith is the only way to accept God, he/she cannot be firgured out with logic.



posted on Jan, 19 2005 @ 05:21 PM
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There is no benefit to being ignorant though. It is truly upsetting that people do not desire knowledge.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 04:56 PM
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Seapeople- i agree! there was a beginning and there will be an end! his name is jesus the alph and omega the beginning and the end!

ben- you are wrong to think jesus asked a question because he did not know the answer!! when jesus said "E'lo-i, E'lo-i, la'ma sabach-tha'ni?" He quoted in Aramaic because he wanted to direct our attention to Psalm 22, where we could see that he was fulfilling this prophetic psalm.
God had forsaken Jesus because Jesus, on the cross, became sin!
Christ, our High Priest and Sacrifice, was conveying, ?I am the Lamb. This is the Passover. ?
As both our High Priest and spotless sacrifice, He is "reading" a Passover psalm.
The significance of the question the Lord is posing, is to get us to think!! For instance, God said to Adam, ?Adam, where are you?? It is because God lost track of Adam? No, of course not. God knows everything!!! He wanted Adam to think about where sin had brought him. God asks question not because He doesn?t know, but because He wants us to think about the significance of what the question evokes.
So when Jesus said, ?Why have you forsaken me,? He was inviting all those who were watching Him on the cross, to consider why He was there!! ( It was a rhetorical question) Why was the Father separated from the Son? It?s because the Son was taking our sin; He was taking our place. Jesus was forsaken of the father for us, for our sin!!



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 07:38 AM
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Ninki, remember, that you were not there when he quoted aramaic. So, for you to say that he did that to point our attention at a psalm is what? It is an assumption, that was originally made not by you, but by someone else. I know this because I have heard that before.

Now, the main point I want to attack here, is that you said "he did this because". Not, "I think he did this because", or "it is my oppinion that he did this because". I also want to stress, that when you learned that from where-ever you learned that, you did not ever take the time to question it.

I will tell a story again. I have friend who goes to bible study classes. She brings her worksheets home, and I often go through them. One time she brought one home with several things that jumped out at me. The main one was about seeing God face to face and living. (there are a lot more)

In the Gospel of John I beleive it states that no man shall see the face of God and live. (its funny to because my friends mother was with me when I flipped). That was stressed in the work sheet. Well, I asked them, "do you really believe that no-one can see the face of God and live?" They said, predicably: "no, it says in the bible that it is impossible" (those may not be their exact words.) I proceeded to show them three specific places were people saw the face of God and lived in the bible...and I am not referring to moses and the burning bush type stuff though moses did see God face to face and live. I also showed them three further instances where it is implied.

So, in one place, the bible says it is not possible, and in several other places, the bible says it happened. Yet christians will work very hard to explain these problems away, rather than accepting them as problems. Amazing.



posted on Jan, 21 2005 @ 09:45 AM
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amazing? well actually i answered this before, when people in the bible saw god, they saw jesus! that is the way to the father! when they saw the father they saw the glory, and that only partial, hence the reason they had to hide their face in a rock, and only got a glimpse of his splendor! why is this so hard for you to understand? you will one day see his face as well!

on the issue of being there for the crucifiction, no i was not there... but jesus was the old testament fullfillment of prophecy, the messiah..when you look at his life it was completing the dance started in the old testament, so if you feel better i will say this is my opinion!





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