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A work or die mentality doesn't work. Why we deserve a basic income.

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posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 09:44 PM
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a reply to: syrinx high priest

I don't have to send mine back, I don't get subsidized money, I go to work 5 days a week, 6 days in the winter when I get all that yummy overtime.




posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 09:44 PM
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originally posted by: DonVoigt
a reply to: syrinx high priest

Zero there should be zero income for those not willing to work for it, get a job and in 14 days I predict money will come your way.


Again and again, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH JOBS to support people. Re-read the first post please so you can stay on point.

It has nothing to do with work ethics or being lazy - there just aren't enough jobs and there will be less and less.

A well run program would probably not cost very much and it could be self sustaining.



posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 09:48 PM
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originally posted by: DonVoigt
a reply to: syrinx high priest

I don't have to send mine back, I don't get subsidized money, I go to work 5 days a week, 6 days in the winter when I get all that yummy overtime.


I don't know what you do but I bet in 10-20 years a robot could do it.

In 50 years, there could literally be 75% unemployment (the true rate is something like 25% now).

Goody for you that you have a job, you children probably aren't going to be that lucky.



posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 09:52 PM
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originally posted by: Daughter2
...
Again and again, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH JOBS to support people. Re-read the first post please so you can stay on point.

It has nothing to do with work ethics or being lazy - there just aren't enough jobs and there will be less and less.

...


Don't worry, there will be more and more jobs when Trump gets things straightened out.



posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 09:53 PM
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a reply to: Daughter2

The unemployment rates are decided by those whom are collecting unemployment. So it's best guess.
www.bls.gov...
I don't think it's anyone else's job to provide someone with a job. There is plenty that needs to be done and often with profit attached. Starting business and e-commerce now can be very lucrative. It's up to each person to find what they want to do for money and how much time they want to allocate to achieve that end.

I don't agree with the argument that "there's not enough people hiring so I should get something just for being." It's not fair to anyone in that food chain.



posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 09:57 PM
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a reply to: Daughter2

Then I guess you and I see it different, I see plenty of jobs out there but some and I stress some of the people that are my age seen to think that taking a job that is beneath you in hard times is unacceptable, I'm an electronics technician with multiple certificates in network engineering, throughout the hard times in our economy when I had trouble finding work in the profession I'm educated in, I found work at lesser jobs that I had done in the past, stocking shelves at Kmart, mopping the floors at a bar after closing, doing mechanics work. These jobs may not have fed my ego or my resume, but they fed me and my family, so strip yourself of that pride and do what you have to do to take care of your family. Nobody starts at the top, everyone has to start at the bottom and prove yourself.
edit on Wed20167V2016341031 by DonVoigt because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 10:10 PM
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a reply to: Daughter2

Actually I'm educated in something that will be around as long as computers are around, I fix electronics, I install equipment, I build networks, I'm also educated in the many arts of construction that is how I paid for my education. Roofing siding, windows, gutters carpentry, I'm also an experienced mechanic, just one of the many ways I paid for my education, so I be a network engineer so that I can secure a good job for the next 50 years, and oh my education isn't done there, because as a network engineer my training and certificate testing is endless.



posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 10:18 PM
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To those against a basic income:

Survival: Fighting for basic survival is fine, when doing so against the uncaring forces of nature. People understand that. Is why when a disaster happens, people instinctively are inclined to help each other fight to persevere. Is why when illness comes, more people are willing to lend a helping hand.

What many people fail to understand is fighting for basic survival simply because someone else thinks they should and want to feel superior to them.

The anecdote that if everyone had their basic needs met, they'd all just stay home and sit around all day is bull#. It's simply not true.

Now if the choice is, stay home all day, or bust your ass to get the same standard of living you had staying home all day. Then, yeah you know what people will stay home. Is why some people who learn to game the system do so. Why work 40 hours a week when you can get the same standard while not doing so? No one wants to work, because it requires for most people giving up most of their life to break less than even. It's simply not worth it. You want people to work to occasionally get above water long enough to catch a few breaths then go back to drowning, getting just enough air to survive, but not really live.

None of this is even necessary. No one should struggle for basic survival. We certainly aren't lacking the resources, no how, or technology to make it impossible. So it's simple unnecessary cruelty. It's torture and it's slavery. When the choice is do or die, it's forced. It's incentive via punishment.

Now you provide basic survival, and use work as a way to get above that. To get wants rather than basic needs, and work becomes a positive thing. It's now reward rather than punishment based. The idea that most people will be happy with basic survival is ludicrous. Most people will still seek work so they can get that new "toy" they've been craving. The difference is, when a person goes to work, they do so with a sense of security. They know, succeed or fail, their needs are met, their loved ones are cared for. They work because they want to, not because people are holding a gun to their head and the heads of their loved ones.

Fewer people will feel the need to resort to crime as well. Fewer desperate people means fewer criminals. So everyone can feel more secure from the wealthiest to the poorest.

People say, "Why should I work so that others can eat?" Well, to create a more safe and stable society, and as stated, you would still have more than those who don't. You'd still be a have while they're a have not. Everyone gets a basic income. It's where everyone starts. A basic income becomes the new bottom, but unlike the old, everyone's basic needs are at least taken care of at the bottom.

When you go to work, you still get bonus money to play with, you still have more toys to play with than those who do not, you're still ahead of everyone who does not work.

So my question is, if by working you're still ahead of everyone who's not working, why is it you feel those who don't need to be starving and dying for you to feel content? If you can have your more and they can have their basic living, and both are reasonably possible, why oh why is unnecessary suffering your preferred choice?



posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 10:20 PM
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Oh and just a cute note, when you do finally take those jobs that are beneath you, you have the privilege of walking around and grumbling under your breath of how when you get your life back on track you are quiting this sh hole as soon as possible. I got away with grumbling that stuff as long as nobody else heard it.



posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 10:41 PM
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OK Ive read this post and I'm convinced.

A Basic income that provides every man, woman and child $500 a month; ... that will cost nothing more than what is currently paid in taxes because it will be so efficient... sounds like a great idea; not really sure why anyone would disagree with it.

So now that I'm convinced; I'd like to know how such a great system could achieved. The finer details if you could. Thank you.



posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 10:44 PM
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originally posted by: Puppylove
To those against a basic income:

Survival: Fighting for basic survival is fine, when doing so against the uncaring forces of nature. People understand that. Is why when a disaster happens, people instinctively are inclined to help each other fight to persevere. Is why when illness comes, more people are willing to lend a helping hand.

What many people fail to understand is fighting for basic survival simply because someone else thinks they should and want to feel superior to them.

The anecdote that if everyone had their basic needs met, they'd all just stay home and sit around all day is bull#. It's simply not true.

Now if the choice is, stay home all day, or bust your ass to get the same standard of living you had staying home all day. Then, yeah you know what people will stay home. Is why some people who learn to game the system do so. Why work 40 hours a week when you can get the same standard while not doing so? No one wants to work, because it requires for most people giving up most of their life to break less than even. It's simply not worth it. You want people to work to occasionally get above water long enough to catch a few breaths then go back to drowning, getting just enough air to survive, but not really live.

None of this is even necessary. No one should struggle for basic survival. We certainly aren't lacking the resources, no how, or technology to make it impossible. So it's simple unnecessary cruelty. It's torture and it's slavery. When the choice is do or die, it's forced. It's incentive via punishment.

Now you provide basic survival, and use work as a way to get above that. To get wants rather than basic needs, and work becomes a positive thing. It's now reward rather than punishment based. The idea that most people will be happy with basic survival is ludicrous. Most people will still seek work so they can get that new "toy" they've been craving. The difference is, when a person goes to work, they do so with a sense of security. They know, succeed or fail, their needs are met, their loved ones are cared for. They work because they want to, not because people are holding a gun to their head and the heads of their loved ones.

Fewer people will feel the need to resort to crime as well. Fewer desperate people means fewer criminals. So everyone can feel more secure from the wealthiest to the poorest.

People say, "Why should I work so that others can eat?" Well, to create a more safe and stable society, and as stated, you would still have more than those who don't. You'd still be a have while they're a have not. Everyone gets a basic income. It's where everyone starts. A basic income becomes the new bottom, but unlike the old, everyone's basic needs are at least taken care of at the bottom.

When you go to work, you still get bonus money to play with, you still have more toys to play with than those who do not, you're still ahead of everyone who does not work.

So my question is, if by working you're still ahead of everyone who's not working, why is it you feel those who don't need to be starving and dying for you to feel content? If you can have your more and they can have their basic living, and both are reasonably possible, why oh why is unnecessary suffering your preferred choice?


Very good post - too bad people can't discuss it but instead keep insisting that poverty exists because people don't work hard.

They have no facts to back themselves up - just little sayings they keep repeating.



posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 10:55 PM
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It's going to happen eventually. There will always be an incentive to work because you will have a higher standard of living, but there will have to be a base income one day. One day there may be a serious energy revolution and it's going to change how things work in our society. Entire industries could be automated and consume a massive percentage of the total workforce. When you have robots doing all the work then there's no reason to avoid a basic needs program.



posted on Jul, 13 2016 @ 11:11 PM
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a reply to: Benicealways
I agree...
Capitalism is as corruptible as Socialism and Communism by process of elimination.. Greedy Americans make profit off of medicine, from education, from agriculture, and some courts have money troubles.. and politics. All of our institutions are subject to greedy venture capitolists creating a financial incentive so we have for-profit health care and bought and paid for politians, not to mention college is too expensive..Venture capitalists will financially incentivize the air you breathe if you let them..
Corporatocracy.



posted on Jul, 14 2016 @ 03:10 AM
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I'm kind of on both sides of the divide here but I'm actually leaning more towards the OP for the following reason. We have to accept the fact that jobs WILL dissapear, robots will eventually do everything! It's inevitable! Already they make cars, serve customers (self serve checkout), build houses (yes they have designed a 3d printer for building houses), harvest crops and much more!

As the OP points out self driving cars are on the horizon, bye bye taxi drivers, bye bye bus drivers, delivery drivers etc etc. That's a damn huge industry!

Now wait, I know there is a feeling of "you have to earn your keep! I work hard so you should too!"

But just for a moment put that aside and look at this from another angle, taking into consideration the above technical advances... Now lets fast forward into the future and imagine that 90% of jobs are automated... And imagine that there was a standard living wage introduced (paid for by the companies NOT you!).

So you are recieving this basic living wage, you can rent a house/flat, eat and clothe yourself. Would you stop there and never work again? Never do anything? If you wanted to do that fine, why not. I can't imagine many will choose that route though.

Something else I just thought of, when all labour jobs are automated it would seem logical to me that more and more people would enter into the arts, which could create some fantastic work considering the amount of brain power that would be behind it!

It's an interesting topic and it would be great to discuss without all the emotion, it's okay, it's not like it will happen tomorrow! XD
edit on 14-7-2016 by Meee32 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2016 @ 05:38 AM
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The funny thing is, you need to give people a basic income or welfare or else your technological development and economy grinds to halt.

The more jobs get automated the more easily we still produce products, yet the less people can get to have money.

The system is made for: employment > buy stuff > more employment > buy more, or the economy shrinks (which is retarded to begin with, there is more than life than material luxury)

But when you take away the employment, you can either enslave the middle/slower class even more so (you can get the food when every sidewalk is spot clean and shiny, you need to work for it remember?), or you give them the freedom to enjoy their life.
edit on 14-7-2016 by Benicealways because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2016 @ 06:04 AM
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OP, be careful for what you wish for. This wouldn't be the panacea you think it is. Ask those who are on public assistance now for more details.




posted on Jul, 14 2016 @ 06:58 AM
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Let`s have a look from a different perspective.

An IT engineer for example. The guy loves his work so much that he can`t imagine doing anything else. In fact he loves it so much that he want to make all of his apps for free so that people can enjoy his work as much as he does. It brings him happiness to see that he actually contributed something to society.

Now, he doesn`t care much about the money, only to have his basic needs covered and here and there he can afford decent vacations with his family. So here and now he has to charge for his apps and he doesn`t like that very much, not to mention people buying it. Occassionally It makes it frustrating for both parties involved but it`s managable.

In a different world, however, where this guy had basics covered and didn`t have to worry about money, he`d gladly put all of his work for free for anyone and just place a donation option there for those who really appreciate his work. Wouldn`t that bring happiness to all? Also instead of companies working against eachother, they could actually work together on a breakthrough. Imagine what people could do together, if there was no boundries.

Society is broken, no doubt about that, and people who are not brainwashed can see right through it. It is a lie that people wouldn`t want to work if they had their basic needs covered. Just look at the Maslow`s pyramid for example:



Thesedays people are fighting for the last two parts of the pyramid in order to satisfy their needs. In case of the basic income people would all skip right to the middle and perhaps many of them would not work for a while until they find friends, mates and have a family. But it wouldn`t stop there because a human being always has to progress, it is in our nature, and that brings us to the 4th part of the ladder. Esteem, to find confidence and self esteem and be respected by others, people would have to work again, just to blend in and satisfy their needs. They wouldn`t be forced to work but would want to work by themselves, a self-incentive if you like and there is no better way to motivate a person to do something.

I also agree with those saying it would bring creativity and acceptance of ourselves and others. Just look at the pyramid, we`d be closer to it than we are now. I hope more people will wake up and realise this grand deception.



posted on Jul, 14 2016 @ 09:34 AM
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originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
OP, be careful for what you wish for. This wouldn't be the panacea you think it is. Ask those who are on public assistance now for more details.



But it's not about welfare, it's just something we will have to come to terms with! Imagine when robots can do better/safer surgery than humans, infact I'm sure I've read that in tests that is already a reality! Bye bye doctors etc

Just imagine a time when everything is automated, we're seeing it unfold before our eyes! Automated warehouses, automated farming, automated shopping. All this exists and is in use today! As someone rightfully pointed out we would have even more automation if it weren't for companies worrying about their image laying people off. What if that wasn't a problem?

The companies would have to pay much more tax but think about it, it would be safer and cheaper for them, think industrial accidents etc that cost millions! Robots don't need holidays or breaks etc. It's win win. It means we humans don't have to do these mind numbing jobs anymore! We can focus our minds on more important things.

The living wage would be paid from the taxes that companies pay. Imagine the stress that would be lifted from society... I would hazard a guess people would start being a lot nicer to each other when they no longer have to fight over crumbs!

EDIT: There would still be an element of capitalism anyway as you can always try to find work if you want to, so that you can make more money and buy more fancy gadgets but if you're happy with the simple life then that's good too.

I have no doubt in my mind that people will still invent and progress, arguably at a faster rate than they do today purely by there being more available people in the pond. (Because they aren't stuck in some dead end job fighting just to make ends meet).
edit on 14-7-2016 by Meee32 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2016 @ 09:41 AM
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But if people are not forced to work all the time, they are going to think and care about the earth, politics, life, can't have that!



posted on Jul, 14 2016 @ 09:51 AM
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originally posted by: Benicealways
But if people are not forced to work all the time, they are going to think and care about the earth, politics, life, can't have that!


Ha true, but who knows, maybe one day enough people will wake up and we can just turn around and laugh about this idea of politics and just start living how we want. It always boggles my mind, some rich guy could revolutionize our society pretty easily but non of them do. Here are a couple of simple ways.

1: Buy a company, keep it as is until you make back the money, then give it to the people that work there with certain criteria in the contract so that it can never be sold again, it always remains in the hands of those that work there. (Lots of other clauses no doubt too, for dealing with hiring and firing etc)

Buy another company and repeat... XD

2: Buy loads of houses and rent them for next to nothing, just to cover costs and to aquire more houses. You still have the wealth anyway sat in property rather than a figure on a screen!

EDIT: Could even let the people just pay normal rent prices but they actually buy the house interest free, what difference would it make to them? They're stinking rich anyway, I mean imagine Bill Gates doing someyhing like this, I can't see it being much skin off his nose.

3: Run a supermarket that sells goods at cost or even below cost, funded with advertisements! Advertising is big buisness and many companies are very rich purely because of it! Imagine there was a supermarket near you like this, everything much cheaper than anywhere else, I'm sure you would go there and so the other stores would have to adopt that model too or perish!

Meh, a guy can dream right? XD
edit on 14-7-2016 by Meee32 because: (no reason given)



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