A work or die mentality doesn't work. Why we deserve a basic income.

originally posted by: DonVoigt
a reply to: syrinx high priest

I don't have to send mine back, I don't get subsidized money, I go to work 5 days a week, 6 days in the winter when I get all that yummy overtime.

the idea of UBI is to replace welfare with an base level income for EVERYBODY. you would get a check, in most plans the bottom 75% of earners gets a check, in others its everybody.

lets probe the depths here.

tell me everything you know about the average UBI proposal

The energy revolution is what will cause a basic income to become a necessity.

originally posted by: schuyler
You will be rewarded according to your effort.

Thanks for the laugh.

a reply to: JAY1980

I'm no anthropologist but: en.wikipedia.org...

What I wonder is what would happen to social mobility? Would there be any way to get wealthy?

And if not, what happens to the billionaires.. are they gonna keep being billionaires while the rest of us are locked into a basic income?

It's an interesting idea and as more job types go the way of the dodo the idea of it being implemented will garner more and more support.

The aspect I like the most about the idea is the notion of people having more time to spend on other things, family and friends, a spiritual life, intellectual stimulation, creative work.. even science. And dare I say current events? Most people don't even have the time to be aware of what is going on in the World and their shallow opinions is a result of this. Maybe more education could serve as a replacement for people that feel like they would be rudderless or isolated without their work. The danger would be in letting it devolve into complete degeneracy like what happened to the Eldar civilisation.

This is like the annual "raise the minimum wage" debate in the US.

how much should we give every citizen? a thousand? Why stop there--why not give everyone a million dollars a day?

Seriously. You know the answer. It's because the price of a Happy Meal would skyrocket to $100,000. All that money would cause runaway inflation, as even non-contributors to the economy could buy whatever they wanted, and just offer to pay more if stocks run low.

Money is a store of relative value. Give every person an equal amount, and the value of that amount will soon be the new zero.

It's called inflation.

you're welcome.

a reply to: redempsh

Which is why no one has every seriously proposed giving everyone a million dollars a day just like no one ever suggest a mininum wage in the millions.

Almost like they know about inflation.

Increases in the mininum wage have little impact on inflation (other than a potential short term cost push) as economies tend to be able increase production to match increased demand.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
What I wonder is what would happen to social mobility? Would there be any way to get wealthy?

And if not, what happens to the billionaires.. are they gonna keep being billionaires while the rest of us are locked into a basic income?

It's an interesting idea and as more job types go the way of the dodo the idea of it being implemented will garner more and more support.

The aspect I like the most about the idea is the notion of people having more time to spend on other things, family and friends, a spiritual life, intellectual stimulation, creative work.. even science. And dare I say current events? Most people don't even have the time to be aware of what is going on in the World and their shallow opinions is a result of this. Maybe more education could serve as a replacement for people that feel like they would be rudderless or isolated without their work. The danger would be in letting it devolve into complete degeneracy like what happened to the Eldar civilisation.

Social motility is not prevented as people can still earn as much as they can from employment or personal enterprise. A UBI just sets a mininum income that every single person receives.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Why would I be stupid enough to not think at all before I post.. you're right.

Locking everybody into a basic income without a chance for social mobility would be the wet dream of any totalitarian though..

a reply to: ScepticScot

But WHY should Person A have to pay for Person B to receive a UBI? That's the entire problem with it the whole thing. It breeds laziness while fewer people contribute, although proponents of it claim the opposite. If ideas like this worked Obamacare would be a financial success and actually be affordable for people. The problem with it (among many) is that too few people are contributors to support the user base, so prices are up.

originally posted by: stolencar18
a reply to: ScepticScot

But WHY should Person A have to pay for Person B to receive a UBI? That's the entire problem with it the whole thing. It breeds laziness while fewer people contribute, although proponents of it claim the opposite. If ideas like this worked Obamacare would be a financial success and actually be affordable for people. The problem with it (among many) is that too few people are contributors to support the user base, so prices are up.

I don't really support the idea of a UBI (think there are many better options). My point was being inflationary isn't a particularly valid criticism.

If it was set at too high level causing increased demand and/drop out the labour market then it could be inflationary in the short term, however as prices reduced the purchasing power people would seek employment to supplement it again.

originally posted by: BoxFulder
I disagree because the economy will fall apart, why work at all if you don't have to? It will stagnate innovation and take away motivation to succeed. Its like why people are on welfare for generations.

Automation is increasing and there are robots that also repair other robots.
If we get to the point where 90% of our "needs" can be automated, then incentives to work are irrelevant since machines do not need motivation or incentives to work.

You act like everyone not working (50% or more of all people) can just
go to the bus and go to work. The fact is most cannot work for some
reason and those that can work cannot because of the lack of available
workplaces and jobs. What delusion it is to think of the economics of
the tragic condition these people are in.

As an example I will you about Kenny who I had the opportunity to
meet last week. We were working at the site and the sun was out in
full force. I know I felt it as the noonday sun bore down on us. Resting,
Kenney sat on the sill and told me he became homeless 2 weeks ago.
He said food stamps were cut off too and he slept outside last night.
Needless to say, Kenny fainted, fell over, and was incoherent. When he
was away by the ambulance, I knew the real reason for his demise, a gov
without remorse, fat with entitlement.

a reply to: ScepticScot

a reply to: Drawsoho

Not sure what your reply has to do with my post?

I am guessing it is to do with my comment about people returning to employment. This was specifically relating to the idea put forward by another poster that people would choose not to work with a UBI. Was not suggesting at all that the majority of those out of work at moment where choosing to be. Apologies if my post was not clear.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Benicealways

People do not need to learn to become more dependant; they need to learn to become less dependant. I would gladly pay taxes for basic skills instead of basic income.

We need to do away with automation then in order to keep the old paradigm alive.

At the founding of our country, land was given away for free for people to make their own way.
All the land is now owned by the wealthy or the government so people cannot head out on their own and plant a crop and raise livestock.

They have to work within the system, but the system is becoming more and more automated and add Globalism into the mix and you have a recipe for disaster that is killing the middle and lower classes.

The Founding Fathers understood the importance of giving people the ability to support themselves.
The Elite though want to take that ability away through automation, through making it a crime to live off the grid and then demanding people support themselves within that paradigm..

That is not going to work out well

a reply to: ScepticScot

Yes, you are right about the structure of society, and it's limitations
with it's human fodder. We certainly cannot go backwards and do away
with automated factories, now can we? So the answer is in the future
and the changes that will occur in population and technology.

originally posted by: cynicalheathen
Somebody has to repair the machines when they break down...

Might be a field for a young person to look into.

That is not how it works today
Most machines are built in modular sections so no diagnostics is required since the software gives error codes on what is at fault.

A minimum wager can slip in and out a faulty board or modular part, especially when there are billions standing behind him to do his job.

But the discussion is already out in the open this early in the game on robots that can repair themselves or make due with the working parts until repaired.

If everyone started a bee line for robot repair, within 10 years their jobs would be obsolete as well.
That is the direction we are headed

We can do this one of two ways
Roll back the clock and kill automation or enter a new paradigm that is good or bad.
Everyone will be affected

originally posted by: BoxFulder
I disagree because the economy will fall apart, why work at all if you don't have to? It will stagnate innovation and take away motivation to succeed. Its like why people are on welfare for generations.

Isn't that the goal?

a reply to: Benicealways

An idiotic entitlement attitude... No one deserves ANYTHING... I don't care if there are machines that can do everything and everyone could have anything they wanted. You still don't DESERVE to have anything just because you exist..the exception being unalienable rights. You most assuredly don't deserve anything at the cost of depravation of others' rights.

Jaden

a reply to: Masterjaden
Why?

I am the universe experiencing it self, why would I not deserve to experience something?