Ancient conceptualization of the Matrix

Another analyzation just happened. That is only two in previous weeks as instructed yet not by who it may seem to be.

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

The idea traces back to the core Neolithic region in Anatolia that commenced around 12,000 years ago, the tribes that migrated to America post dating that had Neolithic contact based cultures, thus any similarity of idea could likely be considered as of common origin, the North Americans didn't subsequently develop much.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

Well a rabbit burrows down as in Alice in Wonderland and if we're talking about consciousness generated through the internal energies of the Earth that's actually the way to go...

Išhara is both illness- and cure-bestowed goddess; it also seems that a number of attributes such as underground, plant, mountain, river, spring, queen of oath, sexuality, propagation, cursing, and making purification from the harmful things are given to this goddess.

The statue of Išḫara in the city Nerissa had the form of a girl and it was decorated with garments, gold and silver As a goddess of Love and sexuality Išḫara belongs to the group of young goddesses, and therefore she bears the Hurrian epithet šiduru = girl.

a reply to: THEMYKIL

A very curious girl guide...well maybe.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Singularity abhors a dichotomy.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Apollo was formerly simply their oracle or interpreter a similar role to Alaunus, because of course the collective consciousness can communicate directly.

I'm going to just throw this out there: I don't know Turner, never read any of his work. but ...

Liminality
Turner, who is considered to have “re-discovered the importance of liminality”, first came across van Gennep’s work in 1963.[26] In 1967 he published his book The Forest of Symbols, which included an essay entitled Betwixt and Between: The Liminal Period in Rites of Passage. Within the works of Turner, liminality began to wander away from its narrow application to ritual passages in small-scale societies. In the various works he completed while conducting his fieldwork amongst the Ndembu in Zambia, he made numerous connections between tribal and non-tribal societies, “sensing that what he argued for the Ndembu had relevance far beyond the specific ethnographic context". He became aware that liminality “...served not only to identify the importance of in-between periods, but also to understand the human reactions to liminal experiences: the way liminality shaped personality, the sudden foregrounding of agency, and the sometimes dramatic tying together of thought and experience".

'The attributes of liminality or of liminal personae ("threshold people") are necessarily ambiguous'.[30] One's sense of identity dissolves to some extent, bringing about disorientation, but also the possibility of new perspectives. Turner posits that, if liminality is regarded as a time and place of withdrawal from normal modes of social action, it potentially can be seen as a period of scrutiny for central values and axioms of the culture where it occurs. - one where normal limits to thought, self-understanding, and behavior are undone. In such situations, “the very structure of society [is] temporarily suspended"

'According to Turner, all liminality must eventually dissolve, for it is a state of great intensity that cannot exist very long without some sort of structure to stabilize it...either the individual returns to the surrounding social structure...or else liminal communities develop their own internal social structure, a condition Turner calls "normative communitas"'.

I don't know if this has been considered yet or not because of Déjà vu and such, which you have tied in to Ishara as Sun Goddess of the underworld, dreaming. What if Wikipedia serves as Alaunas (Apollo)?

a reply to: pthena

Liminality is relevant with regards to direct communication or the establishment of spiritual sites through direct experience were the normative mask of normality slips, it's thus the network Goddess Allani that determines the pattern for sacred sites and interconnecting links, in conjunction with the natural Earth features.

The Masculine role of Alaunus or Apollo or Hermes is open to question as in Hurrian and Mesopotamian tradition Ishara could provide regulation in terms of maintenance of purity, it's generally considered that the actual oracle was a Female ecstatic and the Male role through the priesthood of Apollo was to provide interpretation and act as intermediary between the people, it's the latter function that now seems predominant without any actual oracle, in conjunction with an emphasis on Masculine external Deities of the Heavens.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Ishara could provide regulation in terms of maintenance of purity,

The purity of the communication, data stream?

latter function that now seems predominant without any actual oracle, in conjunction with an emphasis on Masculine external Deities of the Heavens.

In the current predominate system of government and religion? That a vital link(oracle) is missing? So there's a disconnect from what the system(from a secular viewpoint) is and what it ought to be?

A lot of questions, I know, but me jumping to conclusions about what you teach has proven somewhat counterproductive in the past.


Examples:
Rabbis and councils - all men
Pope and College of Cardinals, Bishops, Priests- all men
Fraternal Orders and Secret Societies - all men
Imans and Ayatollahs - all men

All claiming to be interpreting some book from the Heavenly Deity. Hence no living female oracle.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

The thing about the rabbit is it sees all three worlds clearly, the aft, the fore, and the middle as it grinds it all to dust in that mortar and pestle on that moon of our cosmos... a reflection that shines many smiles.

Of course it does we couldn't have a king of beers without it... plurality and a decider, fiening union under a banner concidered greater.

Realism or fantasy doesn't seem to matter in such equations unless there's paper or plastic involved and lives are at stake real or just monetarily in either case.

a reply to: pthena

I think the notion of having a woman off her head on toxic fumes and muttering the incomprehensibles readily exploitable was debased practise anyway, so i don't consider the absence of such oracles an issue but rather that people in general are unaware of the potential for direct communication through appropriate channels and correct understanding of the principles involved, in the absence of which everything goes to Hell.

Any disconnect can only be on our part, but in failing to recognize the importance of regulatory function within the network then it's a case of indiscriminate dissemination of both the best and the worst of spiritual qualities and a great deal of the banal, thus a reciprocal relationship lends itself to quality control, the spiritual qualities in question the archetypes we relate to the planets in both the positive and negative sense.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Thank you.

a reciprocal relationship lends itself to quality control...archetypes we relate to the planets in both the positive and negative sense.

originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: Kantzveldt

I'm no expert on North American Indian cosmology, but from what I've been reading, they had no concept of a Sun Goddess in the Netherworld.

I would agree with this. And their idea of "gods" isn't QUITE the same, either.

To share a bit about what I've learned, I'll briefly relate the following:
1) They have a creation story...........the Eagle created man from clay and woman from a feather and then breathed life into them by flapping his wings over them.
2) They had something known as the "life way", which they studied and observed and tried to live in harmony with.
3) They speak of the "Great Mystery" which seems to involve the Mystery of why they were created and the mystery of their place in the Universe. They didn't seem to focus on questions like.......where is the Earth, what is the Sun, what are the Stars. Rather they observed these celestial bodies and familiarized themselves with their movements as though they were lucky audience of a celestial play or display of nature.
4) Spirits were in everything and everywhere and were to be honored, listened to, observed and counseled. They speak of things like the "Spirit of the Deer", the Spirit of the Eagle. So, when they hunted and slay a Deer, they honored its spirit and in eating its meat in took something of that Spirit.
5) Earth is "Mother" of Mankind.
6) The Great Spirit is Creator.
7) Each animal and man as well participated in and possessed a "Spirit Vibration" which, when conformed to the 4 Directions, (North, South, East and West) could be tuned in and up to various power attributes of the directions.

These are a mix of ancient and fairly modern traditions. Each tribe and band had its own traditions and stories, and when you look deeply, you find that there's more differences than similarities. The "earth Mother" idea is from the 1800's or so -- one put on the Indians by the Whites; the "Great Spirit" is (in most tribes) from about the same time and is the result of forcing Christianity on them.

A good book on this is: Gill, Sam D. Mother Earth: An American Story. University of Chicago Press, 1991. (you can find it in Google Books or have your library get it in interlibrary loan.)

Another book that looks good (about how the Native Americans were forced into an identity... and then "re-colonialized") is Bordewich, Fergus M. Killing the white man's Indian: Reinventing Native Americans at the end of the twentieth century. Anchor Books, 1997. In the last half of the 1900's, they were really overrrun again by people (often New Agers) taking their culture, misunderstanding it, and bending it for the use of other nations.


The introspective "great mystery" is something from the 1970's... each native American person knew what they were and who they were and how they fit into society and the world. Even today, among the Tlingit and other coastal Alaskan tribes, each person knows who they are and how they fit in ("I am John of the Frog clan of the Sun Raven tribe"... like that.)

There is a being whose name translates loosely to "Great Mystery" but it's kind of an oversimplification to call this being the "Great Spirit."

It seems everything was based upon nature and harmony with nature or where there was lack of harmony, then there was a "disturbance in the force", (or Spirit) which cast a pall over the land causing creatures to depart for more harmonious realms.

A lot of things by non-Native Americans would lead you to believe this is true, but it's again a case "the White Man's Indian." They had this concept of who and what they were from writers and administrators (and well meaning New Agers and hippies and everyone else) -- from people who ignored what the Native Americans said and did and plastered it over with the Noble Savage idea.

They moved for various reasons, but a "disturbance in the force" wasn't one of them.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Sounds like a forced psychosis...

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

As already stated, "debased practice".

There isn't anything forced about dreaming, daydreaming, or imagining.
Apologies to OP if I was off topic about ley lines.

a reply to: pthena

I cant nor wont speak for the OP but there is a fine line between madness and truth... sane is still struggling to know the difference.

a reply to: pthena

Interestingly the association of Apollo with what would have been the dissemination of the seven spirits, the Heptad, may have had it's roots in Anatolia, were the Heptad of Ursa Major, the seven dark Gods was under the regulation of Iyarri;

The “terrifying”, hatuka -, “dark”, Luwian mar ( k ) uwa -, Heptad assists Iyarri, the god who brings pestilence shooting his arrows. The Heptad is associated also to the Tutelary-god of the hunting bag

Iyarri, the god who brings pestilence, shoots his arrows like Apollo against those whom he hates.

“The Dark ones” (“The Heptad, the Dark ones”) is not merely an awesome appearance, but has a clearly negative connota-tion, the awesome appearance of Iyarri, the god of the plague, accompanied by the Heptad, is identical to that of Erra and the Sibitti

The Heptad in Anatolia

That couldn't have been in any interpretive sense, the internal translation of darkness to light which became an aspect of the cult of Apollo, but rather that Iyarri is simply the personification of the dark Heptad i considered here, were they also had the Heptad of light/the Sun, the Heptad of the Pleiades as well as the primary Heptad of Scorpio/Ishara, so never a dull moment.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

This shows that, even if Iyarri had been of foreign origin, he did not reach Anatolia by means of the Hurrian rites
. The populations of the Hittite and Luwian regions were on familiar terms with this god, which means that he responded to real deeply-rooted needs.

The story of the Biblical David. He was said to have had much interaction with the Hittites. There seems an unmistakable link between Iyarri and the plague bringer.

Just a random thought.

a reply to: Byrd

Hi Byrd,

You seem to have some understanding about Americans. To tie Sun goddess of underworld, is there evidence to support the notion of a wise person on their death-bed, as a liminal person, sharing wisdom from both perspectives(worlds)?

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Byrd

Hi Byrd,

You seem to have some understanding about Americans. To tie Sun goddess of underworld, is there evidence to support the notion of a wise person on their death-bed, as a liminal person, sharing wisdom from both perspectives(worlds)?

None, in any of the cultures I know.

Nowadays, shamans are called "people who know things" (If you ask one of them if he/she is a shaman, they will say "oh no. I'm just a man/woman who knows some things.") It takes a lot of training, so it's not something they do on a deathbed. Shamans as liminal people interact with the spirit world and society and function as emotional and social and spiritual healers.

And I don't know of any "sun goddesses" in any Native American lore (and the term "goddess" can be misleading when you speak about AmerInd deities.)

(edited to add that one of my anthropology professors (non-Native American) was allowed to take part in a true Sun Dance ceremony... but only after she'd earned the trust of some of their People of Knowledge and after she'd worked with the community for about 15 years. It takes around 10 years to truly prepare for one of these ceremonies (she shared SOME of this with us but respected the knowledge she'd been given and did not share other information. She teaches university courses on Native American culture (I was fortunate to take some of them) that are crafted with the help of the local Native American community. I learned how to shake hands properly!)

a reply to: Byrd

Thank you.

I didn't want to start my own White Man's Indian rumor.

I think the death-bed wisdom as reflected in Genesis is a Patriarchal concept (Isaac, Jacob).

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Byrd

Thank you.

I didn't want to start my own White Man's Indian rumor.

I think the death-bed wisdom as reflected in Genesis is a Patriarchal concept (Isaac, Jacob).

I doublechecked some of the literature, and I believe you're right -- the deathbed wisdom is basically a Jewish/Christian/Muslim tradition.

I found this interesting article about traditional wisdom and tribes by a Papua/New Guinea preacher

There's a reference to Socrates and his deathbed wisdom, but in general the bulk of it seems to come directly out of the Jewish tradition.

a reply to: Byrd
Thank you very much.

I'll read it.