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The Paradox of Applying the Typical 2nd Amendment Argument to the Dallas Shootings

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posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 06:43 PM
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In the last 24 hours, there have been several "copycat" scenarios ... Tennessee, Georgia ... one at least by another former member of the military.

Bristol TN - Washingon Post



Meanwhile, relatives say they were shocked to learn of the shooting. A brother, Gerard Griffin, says he never saw any violence from Scott, calling him a “protector” of his siblings.


Authorities: 911 Caller Ambushed, Shot Officer in Georgia - ABC News



The shooting in Valdosta, just north of the Georgia-Florida state line, happened hours after five police officers were killed Thursday night in an ambush in Dallas. Despite saying the officer was lured to the scene by the gunman, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation said there was no immediate evidence the shootings were related.


So ... two examples of two individuals in two different states ... both acting in what can be called a strategic manner, both with military training ... both, apparently had never been in trouble with the law before.

I keep hearing in my mind the oft repeated phrase ... "maybe people are getting tired of all this."

It's all very saddening ... but I wonder, if the trend continues ... what effect these Cop Attacks will have on the gun control debate.

Mr. Reagan was pretty clear on the subject, way back when ...
edit on 8-7-2016 by Gryphon66 because: Noted




posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 06:54 PM
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originally posted by: Bluntone22
There are 300,000,000 people in america and around 1000 are killed by police every year. Most of those are justified but let's include them anyway.
1000 divide by 300 million is .000003%

I know that one wrongful death is to many but I can think of a bunch of ways to die that are more likely to happen than death by cop.



You sound all smart and stuff with your statistics. It's easy to be all big and bad about death when you're still living.



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 07:00 PM
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Well, my thoughts. I live in a rural town. Years ago we had a "wolf pack" in our local police force. Went after certain elements in my town, not based on any police practice, just went after them. Sheriffs.... one hears stories, and grand jury investigates. About a mile away a few years ago, young man gunned down on the street by police; family said it shouldn't have happened. Out of state local law, a young man is held in custody for almost a year before being released-- that seemed more to do with local law hi-jinks than his actual involvement. We've had the feds come through, but on stuff at the fed level, money laundering and explosives.

All the local stuff happened to poor people, regardless of color. Excessive police force and "irregularities" done by local institutions, not fed. So, maybe all this crap about defending against the fed tyrannical govt is quite a load. The new marketing campaign will be defending against, not the fed govt, but ourselves. We have met the enemy and he is local. And he is We The People.



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 07:02 PM
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originally posted by: desert
Well, my thoughts. I live in a rural town. Years ago we had a "wolf pack" in our local police force. Went after certain elements in my town, not based on any police practice, just went after them. Sheriffs.... one hears stories, and grand jury investigates. About a mile away a few years ago, young man gunned down on the street by police; family said it shouldn't have happened. Out of state local law, a young man is held in custody for almost a year before being released-- that seemed more to do with local law hi-jinks than his actual involvement. We've had the feds come through, but on stuff at the fed level, money laundering and explosives.

All the local stuff happened to poor people, regardless of color. Excessive police force and "irregularities" done by local institutions, not fed. So, maybe all this crap about defending against the fed tyrannical govt is quite a load. The new marketing campaign will be defending against, not the fed govt, but ourselves. We have met the enemy and he is local. And he is We The People.


That's precisely it. I describe myself as a leftist PRECISELY because that is my understanding of the world.

Damn right I fear/loathe the government ... but it's the good ol' boys and girls locally that are the only Tyrants I've ever seen.



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 07:49 PM
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I have read part way through this thread, and I apologize for that. I would like to share something about statistics on police shootings.

Go and play with it. In a nutshell, this year, 279 whites killed and 137 blacks killed by police. You be the judge.

www.theguardian.com...





edit on 8-7-2016 by Onesmartdog because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 10:05 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

I still have my "American Democracy--The Best Money Can Buy" and "Question Authority" buttons.... 40 years old.
The federal govt can deal with hatred and distrust up to a point, which has been building for decades now. Hatred and distrust can be waved off, used by an oligarchy to gain power. Questioning OTOH is powerful and can't be ignored; it is pulling the curtain back on the wizard. Americans were taught to hate and distrust, but taught to not question.

The hatred that has been building for the federal govt has now spilled over into local levels. What happened in Dallas could be the shot heard round the country now. Yes, what will be the debate now.



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 12:22 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

I think this is the wrong target. Civilian law enforcement does not represent the nation as a whole or the current federal tyrannical government. Not only that, but they targeted innocent officers that had nothing to do with the issue they are protesting. If they went after the specific cop that did the specific act, I could POSSIBLY have a small amount of sympathy for the attacker.

Now if someone hypothetically did the same thing to say, any of the alphabet agencies, or federal branches, I could see how your argument would make sense, as they are currently acting outside the scope of the power that has been granted to them.



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 12:28 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

And I forgot to mention, I am self censoring my speech to a large degree due to government surveillance.

Go figure.



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 01:13 AM
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a reply to: desert

I have some idea..fivethirtyeight.com...



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 01:17 AM
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a reply to: Aazadan

THEN your rebellion has FAILED, it's all or nothing if that happens,to have any idea otherwise is to capitulate BEFORE you even try.



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 03:23 AM
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You are simply basing your question on th assumption that the MSM/Obama admin. narrtive is the correct one - which its not. Also, I disagree with your asumption that the majority agree with that narrative - which I dont think they do. We are dealing with a violent and racist domestic terror group and the people who control them. Dont buy into the narrative the media is selling you - as its wrong and totally innacurate.
The real qustion is: who stands to profit by BLMs actions, and why?
edit on 9-7-2016 by jimbo999 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 03:30 AM
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a reply to: Onesmartdog
The Guardian is a totally biased and universally despised Regressive propaganda rag - not a very trustworthy source. I wouldnt trust anything written in The Guardian if I were you.



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 03:36 AM
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Ba reply to: BLee8127
But it doent make it any less true. The chances of being killed by a cop are practically nil - unless you are breaking the law. Most of the fatalities are of criminals - such as the two black gangsters recently killed. There is no police conspiracy to kill innocent people in the streets. It simply isnt happening - no matter what BLM or Obama would have you believe.



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 03:43 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
In the last 24 hours, there have been several "copycat" scenarios ... Tennessee, Georgia ... one at least by another former member of the military.

Bristol TN - Washingon Post



Meanwhile, relatives say they were shocked to learn of the shooting. A brother, Gerard Griffin, says he never saw any violence from Scott, calling him a “protector” of his siblings.


Authorities: 911 Caller Ambushed, Shot Officer in Georgia - ABC News



The shooting in Valdosta, just north of the Georgia-Florida state line, happened hours after five police officers were killed Thursday night in an ambush in Dallas. Despite saying the officer was lured to the scene by the gunman, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation said there was no immediate evidence the shootings were related.


So ... two examples of two individuals in two different states ... both acting in what can be called a strategic manner, both with military training ... both, apparently had never been in trouble with the law before.

I keep hearing in my mind the oft repeated phrase ... "maybe people are getting tired of all this."

It's all very saddening ... but I wonder, if the trend continues ... what effect these Cop Attacks will have on the gun control debate.
T
Mr. Reagan was pretty clear on the subject, way back when ...

This is not a gun issue imo, this is a domestic terror issue. These are not "copy cat" crimes - these are BLM atta ks by BLM supporters.



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 04:14 AM
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a reply to: jimbo999

No, what I'm talking about is not a gun issue.

Nor is it a racial issue.

As I pointed out in the OP.



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 04:16 AM
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originally posted by: jimbo999
You are simply basing your question on th assumption that the MSM/Obama admin. narrtive is the correct one - which its not. Also, I disagree with your asumption that the majority agree with that narrative - which I dont think they do. We are dealing with a violent and racist domestic terror group and the people who control them. Dont buy into the narrative the media is selling you - as its wrong and totally innacurate.
The real qustion is: who stands to profit by BLMs actions, and why?


You're just repeating what I assume is your standard response in any thread about gun violence and race issues.

They don't apply here; please read the OP, thx.

When you do, you'll discover that we're not analyzing the facts about the Dallas shooting, but rather looking at the template of that tragedy to consider what I and others think is an interesting question: when supporters of the Second Amendment describe its most important meaning, to wit, the facility of the People to rise up and confront an overreaching tyrannical government that is abusing the citizenry. Many believe that our government (Federal, State and local) has become such a tyrant, and basically murders citizens at will in the street and by the side of the highway. It's not a racial issue because both Black and White Americans have been victimized in this way (e.g LaVoy Finicum, Philando Castile). What we're considering is if a person or persons were to take such actions as staging a military style ambush focusing on police and law enforcement (like Dallas), which are recognized as the enforcement arms of that tyrannical government ... at what point does that become "standing against tyranny" rather than just blatant murder?

So there you go. I look forward to your thoughts on THAT issue. Please take the "Obama controls the MSM" stuff somewhere else, and again, thank you kindly.
edit on 9-7-2016 by Gryphon66 because: Spelling



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 04:25 AM
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a reply to: desert

Ah, good ol' question authority buttons...I've still got mine, too.

Some lessons never go out of style. Forgotten, yes. Out of style, never.



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 04:34 AM
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originally posted by: Winstonian
a reply to: Gryphon66

I think this is the wrong target. Civilian law enforcement does not represent the nation as a whole or the current federal tyrannical government. Not only that, but they targeted innocent officers that had nothing to do with the issue they are protesting. If they went after the specific cop that did the specific act, I could POSSIBLY have a small amount of sympathy for the attacker.

Now if someone hypothetically did the same thing to say, any of the alphabet agencies, or federal branches, I could see how your argument would make sense, as they are currently acting outside the scope of the power that has been granted to them.


First of all, in no way, absolutely ZERO, is this discussion seeking any sympathy for the actual attacker(s) in the Dallas case. As stated many times, we are looking at the Dallas shooting (a miltary style attack on government forces) as something of a template for our question of interest (see above.)

I am aware from your other writings here that you are focused on the Federal government, as are many folks. However, not all Americans are, and many feel that the real threat to the American people is found at the most local level (city, county). Also, I absolutely agree with you that the officers in Dallas were innocent ... but again, I'm not offering or asking for an analysis of what happened in Dallas, as the OP points out, and as I just pointed out again. The FBI is also "civilian law enforcement" by the way, and just as the local police and the State police of each state, they represent part of the enforcement arm of the government ... at every level.

We aren't singling out the Federal govenrment here ... all government represents a potential danger to the individual liberty (and in this case, very lives) of the American people.
edit on 9-7-2016 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 05:16 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

A policeman pulled over a motorist for allegedly having a broken tail light. This is a well known scam: write a citation for a minor offense and the recipient will find it easier to pay an unjust $35 fine than to take a day off work and wait around a crowded courthouse to contest. The driver informs the policeman that he is legally carrying a concealed weapon, so the policeman panics and shoots the gun owner. Where is the NRA's outrage at this murderous attack on an individual's Second Amendment rights?

The next day, a gentleman expresses his Second Amendment rights by acting as a well regulated militia-man defending his community against the agents of a murderous, tyrannical government. Where are the kudos from the NRA?

Is it possible that the NRA views these Second Amendment rights cases as being racial in nature?



posted on Jul, 9 2016 @ 05:21 AM
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a reply to: jimbo999


The real qustion is: who stands to profit by BLMs actions, and why?


We know who profits from gun violence: gun manufacturers and their lobby, the NRA. Racial panic will see gun sales spike thanks to these incidents.




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