Another police involved shooting - Baton Rouge Police Shoot Alton Sterling

a reply to: MrWendal

Role of a thug, Thug's death ..SMH .
the man trying to feed a family selling C.Ds = "thug" just like another man in another state that got chocked out to death selling loosies.
Another reason for not believing in no sky god fantasies, for in the real world state murderers walks and go home to have a sandwich, most likely will die quietly in bed at some ripe old age.. God and justice don't exist unless you take it.
nuff said before I get sanctioned.

originally posted by: JinMI
He resisted arrest while suspected of being armed.

Will be interesting to see if they informed him of this or just jumped out and started smacking him around.

If I had no reason to think I had done anything wrong, and from my point of view you jumped out of a b&w and tried to pig pile me for no reason, I would probably not meekly lie down to get my ribs kicked in.

OTOH, if you jumped out and said 'we have a report that you are armed and dangerous, don't give us any # at the moment', I'd act totally differently. I'd still be pissed off, but I would have a better understanding of why you're flipping out, and you'd get a lot more cooperation.

a reply to: Bedlam

It's hard to say. We're only seeing part of the story at the moment, same with the one in Minn. If you understand a cops job and the limit of their authority, it's better to shutup completely and comply. There will be opportunities to get your due later.

There had to be a reason he was tazed first. There had to be a reason why he was resisting.

originally posted by: JinMI

If you understand a cops job and the limit of their authority, it's better to shutup completely and comply. There will be opportunities to get your due later.

Often not. But you will get a really different reaction from people if you let them know you are there for something serious and will brook no argument for the moment, than if two white cops jump out of a car and start screaming freeze freeze down down while charging. One method engages the mind, the other will trigger some sort of bad reaction from ANYONE.

I guarantee if I jumped out of a car with a pistol coming towards your putative wife screaming down down she would likely NOT lie down and instantly assume the position, she'd freeze and scream, maybe run. Bam bam bam bam. She shouldn't have run. She should have complied. Well, the truth is, people often don't react with instant perfect complance when you scare the crap out of them and are perceived to be attacking with deadly force for no obvious reason.

There had to be a reason he was tazed first. There had to be a reason why he was resisting.

What if he was, basically, SWATted? I'm not saying he's a saint. But if he DIDN'T do anything, and the cops attacked him physically, from his POV, then he will likely not react 'properly'. And if you're jumping on me and beating the crap out of me, letting you beat me in the face and kick me in the slats BETTER might not seem like a great idea at the time either. A lot of times cops perceive a natural defense against attack to be 'resistance', or at least they claim it is. But I put it to you, if I am punching you in the kidneys and spare ribs with all I have, you are going to 'resist' by twisting away from it or blocking it. I don't think John the Baptist would lie there and let you beat them without at least some reflexive attempt to cover up their goodies.

I think some of the crap you see happening is caused by the methods currently being trained for police use. It's going to produce bad reactions out of ANYONE.

Has anyone else heard that the person who shot the first video owns a company that puts recorded killings on the internet? And HE is the person who made the anonymous phone call to the police.

Almost like a set up.

a reply to: MrWendal

Agreed. I don't have to like what happened to understand it. These cops were just responding incrementally to the suspect. The Minnesota incident seems much different.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: JinMI

If you understand a cops job and the limit of their authority, it's better to shutup completely and comply. There will be opportunities to get your due later.

Often not. But you will get a really different reaction from people if you let them know you are there for something serious and will brook no argument for the moment, than if two white cops jump out of a car and start screaming freeze freeze down down while charging. One method engages the mind, the other will trigger some sort of bad reaction from ANYONE.

I guarantee if I jumped out of a car with a pistol coming towards your putative wife screaming down down she would likely NOT lie down and instantly assume the position, she'd freeze and scream, maybe run. Bam bam bam bam. She shouldn't have run. She should have complied. Well, the truth is, people often don't react with instant perfect complance when you scare the crap out of them and are perceived to be attacking with deadly force for no obvious reason.

There had to be a reason he was tazed first. There had to be a reason why he was resisting.

What if he was, basically, SWATted? I'm not saying he's a saint. But if he DIDN'T do anything, and the cops attacked him physically, from his POV, then he will likely not react 'properly'. And if you're jumping on me and beating the crap out of me, letting you beat me in the face and kick me in the slats BETTER might not seem like a great idea at the time either. A lot of times cops perceive a natural defense against attack to be 'resistance', or at least they claim it is. But I put it to you, if I am punching you in the kidneys and spare ribs with all I have, you are going to 'resist' by twisting away from it or blocking it. I don't think John the Baptist would lie there and let you beat them without at least some reflexive attempt to cover up their goodies.

I think some of the crap you see happening is caused by the methods currently being trained for police use. It's going to produce bad reactions out of ANYONE.

First off forgive me, I don't yet know how to break up your quotes as you did mine so I'll answer in uniform.

While neither of us yet know of how this escalated it would be a safe bet to say that it did in fact escalate from a lower tense situation. Even if it is as you say, that they jumped out hostility unrelenting then why use a taser?

You coming at my wife is different than a uniformed officer coming at me. They are not the same and would have different results.

As to the swat claim. So lets imagine that's how it went down? Again why resist? From the video it picks up at the beginning/ending of the tasing to the officer tackling to subdue and apprehend. "Beating the crap out of" is arguable but not what I saw.

What I'm saying is this wasn't a street fight. He was approached, in what manner we don't know, by officers who considered him armed. At some point the situation escalated to force and that force was meant with resistance.

a reply to: FanUpCutKid

That would be interesting. Any proof?

"Get on the ground!" ...after he's been shot 3 times. lol.

originally posted by: JinMI

While neither of us yet know of how this escalated it would be a safe bet to say that it did in fact escalate from a lower tense situation. Even if it is as you say, that they jumped out hostility unrelenting then why use a taser?

Because they were wound up and he wasn't instantly complying? But the problem is, no one would in that situation. They're taught that should be the case. But reasonable people wouldn't react with instant compliance, guilty or no.

You coming at my wife is different than a uniformed officer coming at me. They are not the same and would have different results.

Exactly my point, in a way. But your wife wouldn't be 'non compliant', she'd be frozen. But to the cop, it's the same. Zzzt. I don't know anyone (except, sadly, career criminals) who, upon hearing 'freeze' actually throw themselves to the ground face down with their arms in the proper position and then offer no resistance, even defensive reactions, when being kneed or struck. Thus, it's sort of open season, if that's your cue to scream 'don't resist' and start tazing or shooting.

As to the swat claim. So lets imagine that's how it went down? Again why resist?

Because it's a natural reaction? That's the issue with how they're trained to deal with the situation. It's laughably similar to how they showed us how to get a "LOACable" reaction. You can't just shoot people you are tired of under LOAC and ROE. So you induce the behavior you'd like. Jumping out at someone and screaming conflicting orders is a great way to get someone to run, or react defensively. Bang, bang, bang.

Again, I'm not saying the officers went there with the intention of inducing him to react in a shootable way. But it's how they're trained. The training causes the situation, especially with newer officers who go down the list like it's a program.

He was approached, in what manner we don't know, by officers who considered him armed. At some point the situation escalated to force and that force was meant with resistance.

Of course it did, and it's the natural flow to how I suspect they approached. If they came out and told him he was considered armed and dangerous and that they wanted no crap out of him until he was secured, hoorah! But I'd bet not. That sort of thing is not considered 'gaining control of the situation' which is the immediate goal, the way they're trained. But it's also the way to get bad reactions. I'm not saying you don't use command voice and a proper posture, just that if you come flying out all tazey and screamy you're going to get a startle/flight/fight from ANYONE, including you.

originally posted by: JinMI
What I'm saying is this wasn't a street fight. He was approached, in what manner we don't know, by officers who considered him armed. At some point the situation escalated to force and that force was meant with resistance.

If he was approached by officers who considered him armed, I think you can sort of guess at the manner.

However, at that point, the body cameras should not have fallen off. There ought to be some sort of record. Not that it will matter either way.

originally posted by: Bedlam

Often not. But you will get a really different reaction from people if you let them know you are there for something serious and will brook no argument for the moment, than if two white cops jump out of a car and start screaming freeze freeze down down while charging. One method engages the mind, the other will trigger some sort of bad reaction from ANYONE.

I guarantee if I jumped out of a car with a pistol coming towards your putative wife screaming down down she would likely NOT lie down and instantly assume the position, she'd freeze and scream, maybe run. Bam bam bam bam. She shouldn't have run. She should have complied. Well, the truth is, people often don't react with instant perfect complance when you scare the crap out of them and are perceived to be attacking with deadly force for no obvious reason.

I think some of the crap you see happening is caused by the methods currently being trained for police use. It's going to produce bad reactions out of ANYONE.

I couldn't agree more with these statements, you seriously hit the nail on the head.

Something else that came to mind... I think the officers would have had a much easier time apprehending him if they put their firearms down and used both hands, no?

a reply to: Bedlam

Reasonable people comply all the time. Thousand of interactions per day do not net the same result.

Unless there is something to be guilty of, you should have no reason to be leery of police. I understand this is not the case everywhere but there are laws/rules to be followed on both sides. Like I previously stated, if you know how much authority a cop has you've really no reason to worry.

I've been on the wrong side of the law many times in the past. When you run, you take a risk of more charges and bodily harm. When your caught you can continue and possibly face more bodily harm, warranted or not. Being armed and it being known up the ante considerably. Lives become at stake.

Far as I know most police officers don't wake up with the intent to take lives. The ones that I've met that have don't deal with it well.

When the lights are on and weapons are drawn, it's game over. Give it up or proceed at your own risk.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: Bedlam

Reasonable people comply all the time. Thousand of interactions per day do not net the same result.

Except, if the cops in question are pre wound up then what would be a normal amount of non-compliance gets shooty.

The issue is, the non-complier in this case didn't know they were coming primed to start popping off some rounds.

Unless there is something to be guilty of, you should have no reason to be leery of police.

Ride along with some for a while. Act like you approve of everything they do. Watch what you see. It's an eye opener.

In my case, I've got about half my family that are cops. Or were. Or will be. It's an Irish thing.

I don't personally trust any LEO I don't know well. And I don't trust half of those. INCLUDING family.

Like I previously stated, if you know how much authority a cop has you've really no reason to worry.

The question is...do THEY know how much authority they have. And a lot of times, that answer is 'no'. "I'm the law and I gave you an order so that makes it a lawful order" is not what you want to hear.

Far as I know most police officers don't wake up with the intent to take lives.

Probably not, but if you're trained in a way that causes bad reactions from normal people, you're going to have a lot of opportunities to do so. And the job attracts a set of certain personality types.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: Bedlam

Reasonable people comply all the time. Thousand of interactions per day do not net the same result.

It might be interesting if someone did a metastudy of how people 'comply' when the cops come at them expecting they are dangerous, as opposed, say, to asking to step out of the car during a traffic stop.

I bet you a lot more evildoers are shot, maimed, or beaten if the cops are wound up on arrival.

a reply to: Bedlam

So I just read the links about the would be cops not getting the job with higher IQ's in the other thread. Blew my hair back abit.

No he might not have known, but I'm sure when he walked out of the house armed he was ready. Unless mental issues reside, you don't knowingly break laws without at least the thought of some blowback?

I know a few, I work with one. I've been asking for a ride along but it's not looking good! I don't need to trust any either..at all. If I feel the ball is not in my court when dealing with one, I'm perfectly happy keeping my trap shut, going to jail and calling my lawyer. Havn't had to do that in a LONG time!

I agree with your last paragraph 100%

a reply to: Bedlam

Well we have a small insight in the other thread sadly.

I would also be willing to bet their bias on gender/race/nationality and language would have an influence as well.

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: Bedlam

So I just read the links about the would be cops not getting the job with higher IQ's in the other thread. Blew my hair back abit.

You know, I hear that story a lot. I also hear some cops belly aching that smart cops are wussies that can't act because somehow being smart makes you a 'vagina'. And I know a lot of cops, hell, to be frank MOST cops I have run into that just about everything ends up being a dick measuring contest.

But I know a lot of smart cops. Certainly ones with IQs over 100. A lot of them move up or out, and end up in DHS or FBI or the local state investigation bunch or over to ATF. Even some of the less intelligent cops I know are actually really good at being LEOs. I had a really close friend that passed a few years back that was a LEO all his life. Tim wouldn't have ever made it past high school, but he never beat the crap out of anyone he could avoid, nor abused people, nor shot anyone he could avoid, and he went into a lot of hairy situations alone because he just wasn't afraid of anything. But he rarely had the first complaint, even from people he arrested, because he'd calmly tell you what he wanted and you'd by god do it, please. And people would comply. But he never got that training where you wade into things you don't yet understand and start screaming at, hitting or threatening everyone in sight to 'get control of the situation'. He just TOOK control of the situation, and it was a combo of behavior, voice, posture and being a friggin' power lifter and a crack shot.

Tim would be the last person you'd expect to see posing with the body or high-fiving over it. Nor planting evidence, nor lying in court. Nor would he lie you up if you screwed up in some major way, because he wasn't afraid of other cops, either, and didn't see fit to impress them.

That to say, the five or six best cops I ever knew, half of them were not all that bright, and the other half had degrees in something other than criminal justice. I'm not sure it makes a difference, at least at the street cop level. Understanding forensics would have been past Tim, I'm afraid.

No he might not have known, but I'm sure when he walked out of the house armed he was ready. Unless mental issues reside, you don't knowingly break laws without at least the thought of some blowback?

Do you think he stuck a sidearm in his pocket thinking he was going to shoot a cop that day? BR is a rough place in parts, I suspect he was thinking more that he didn't want to get robbed. But no, he shouldn't have been armed.

I know a few, I work with one. I've been asking for a ride along but it's not looking good!

I'm surprised you can't get a ride. I guess it depends on where you live. I never had any issues. Generally, they do some sort of background check and you have to have insurance of some sort or other.

a reply to: charolais

They were responding to a report of a man threatening people with a gun. He was resisting to the point that they had already used tasers. And knocked him down. He was still resisting. Are they supposed to wait until they are shot before they pull their guns?