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The problem I see with the Liberal Movement.

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posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 09:40 AM
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a reply to: TheTory

Could not of said it better myself!

And on that note goodnight/day






posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 09:44 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Gryphon66

Well seeing as how you are getting angry at me now, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Pish posh.

I'm not angry.

But agreeing to disagree is fine.

As always, best.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 09:44 AM
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originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: avgguy

Liberalism is one of the most important philosophies in human history. The "SJWs" are illiberal.


So, by definition, the "SJWs" are not liberals?

Our points are similar.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 09:49 AM
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originally posted by: crazyewok
Ok there is a a lot of Liberals I do respect, even if I don't agree with. They generally want to try and make the world a better and fairer place.


TBH, there are only a very few liberals I respect and none of them are public figures. And even then, I respect them as people on a face to face one on one level. I will compartmentalize politics away from the rest of a person if I like them and if they'll do the same for me.

I do not believe the want to make the world a better place. I believe they want to make the world into what they want it to be. Not necessarily better. They have no moral qualms at all about trampling all over anyone who gets in their way of their goals. When it really comes down to it they won't bat an eye.

The problem with the liberal movement is the same problem with every movement. They play for keeps but they cry foul when the other team does the same thing. To put it another way - They play to win but they don't expect their opponents to do the same. If you try to face them on their level, you will lose. You'll get caught up in the emotional swamplands of "But they mean well!" and they'll wait for you to drop your guard and kick you right in the nuts.

That is to say there isn't a problem with them per se. They're doing exactly what everyone who wants to win has always done. They cheat. And they're damn good at it.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 09:52 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: avgguy

Liberalism is one of the most important philosophies in human history. The "SJWs" are illiberal.


So, by definition, the "SJWs" are not liberals?

Our points are similar.


Definitely not. The assault on free speech is one indication of how far they've removed themselves from liberal values. Illiberals or anti-liberals might be a better term to use for those against liberal values.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 09:55 AM
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originally posted by: TheTory

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: avgguy

Liberalism is one of the most important philosophies in human history. The "SJWs" are illiberal.


So, by definition, the "SJWs" are not liberals?

Our points are similar.


Definitely not. The assault on free speech is one indication of how far they've removed themselves from liberal values. Illiberals or anti-liberals might be a better term to use for those against liberal values.


I just use "right-wing" ...

I'm kidding. Mostly. (LOL)

Liberalism gets convoluted through politics. The concepts of "equality before the laws" and the relative "autonomy of the individual" fall prey to short-term agendas.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 09:57 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TheTory

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: avgguy

Liberalism is one of the most important philosophies in human history. The "SJWs" are illiberal.


So, by definition, the "SJWs" are not liberals?

Our points are similar.


Definitely not. The assault on free speech is one indication of how far they've removed themselves from liberal values. Illiberals or anti-liberals might be a better term to use for those against liberal values.


I just use "right-wing" ...

I'm kidding. Mostly. (LOL)

Liberalism gets convoluted through politics. The concepts of "equality before the laws" and the relative "autonomy of the individual" fall prey to short-term agendas.


Oddly-enough, I think one must be conservative in order to defend something as old as liberal values, so perhaps the poles are switching.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 09:58 AM
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originally posted by: TheTory

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: avgguy

Liberalism is one of the most important philosophies in human history. The "SJWs" are illiberal.


So, by definition, the "SJWs" are not liberals?

Our points are similar.


Definitely not. The assault on free speech is one indication of how far they've removed themselves from liberal values. Illiberals or anti-liberals might be a better term to use for those against liberal values.

There is no "assault on free speech". Your speech is still 100% free, just like it was 240 years ago. The idea of an "assault on free speech" is just a concoction of the right because they are mad that people on the left are calling them out for saying mean things.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 10:02 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

There are a few free-speech "vetoes" if you have read any scholarship on the issues. One is the "heckler's veto", and there are many instances of this occurring. There is the "assassins veto", and there are many instances of this occurring. I realize "assault on free speech" is an over-used term, but it is naive to say otherwise.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 10:03 AM
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originally posted by: TheTory

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TheTory

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: avgguy

Liberalism is one of the most important philosophies in human history. The "SJWs" are illiberal.


So, by definition, the "SJWs" are not liberals?

Our points are similar.


Definitely not. The assault on free speech is one indication of how far they've removed themselves from liberal values. Illiberals or anti-liberals might be a better term to use for those against liberal values.


I just use "right-wing" ...

I'm kidding. Mostly. (LOL)

Liberalism gets convoluted through politics. The concepts of "equality before the laws" and the relative "autonomy of the individual" fall prey to short-term agendas.


Oddly-enough, I think one must be conservative in order to defend something as old as liberal values, so perhaps the poles are switching.


Since the modern trend in politics seems to be unbridled ego-centric authoritarianism, I might just agree with you ... in general terms.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 10:04 AM
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originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: crazyewok

The worst for me is the notion of class conflict, where history is always class struggle. For instance, minority vs. majority, race vs. race, rich vs. poor, or gay vs. straight. They "new age liberal" seems to like categorizing people into racial, sexual, or economic categories based on very superficial notions, without care or concern for the individuals within any of these or other groups.




there is only one class conflict that has been around forever....wealthy versus all the rest...the wealthy need these other conflicts to run interference.....if you can turn a populace against one another, based on your aforementioned lists of conflicts that are NOT "rich versus poor", the wealthy then stay above the sound and fury, and are free to continue what they do so well...a slow ever-increasing transfer of money from labor to the investor



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 10:05 AM
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a reply to: TheTory

Nope. Speech is 100% free. Have you or anyone you known been arrested for saying you disapprove of the government, liberals, saying racist things, or any other thing that the right complains they can't say anymore? No. Therefore the "assault on free speech" is an illusion.

There may have been a few bills or attempts to circumvent free speech by a politician or two (that have all been trashed because they are unconstitutional anyways), but to pretend like they are evidence of a coordinated attack against free speech is so ludicrous that I wouldn't believe we'd be talking about it if it weren't for the climate of fallacy based political discussion that rules the land these days.
edit on 6-7-2016 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 10:12 AM
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yes i definately see problems with the Liberal Movement.

One in particular.





posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 11:35 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t


Nope. Speech is 100% free. Have you or anyone you known been arrested for saying you disapprove of the government, liberals, saying racist things, or any other thing that the right complains they can't say anymore? No. Therefore the "assault on free speech" is an illusion.

There may have been a few bills or attempts to circumvent free speech by a politician or two (that have all been trashed because they are unconstitutional anyways), but to pretend like they are evidence of a coordinated attack against free speech is so ludicrous that I wouldn't believe we'd be talking about it if it weren't for the climate of fallacy based political discussion that rules the land these days.


Yep. Free Speech is a philosophical principle and a human right, not a law. It is not limited to governments, but society as a whole. Circumventing free speech isn’t limited to the government either, for it is threatened by violence, economic loss, social ostracism, and much more.

Not only is freedom of speech under assault from coercion and force, it is under assault from those who do not understand what free speech is, its history, and what the principle entails, and who think it is all settled by law makers and bureaucrats.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 11:42 AM
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THANKFULLY, Being liberal means one is open minded, not close minded....so every time I see someone use the term as an insult, I chuckle at the irony of someone simply labelling themselves as close minded in their outlook.

I feel gleeful when someone calls me a liberal. So big thank you for those who are giving us compliments when you think you are insulting us.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 11:45 AM
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a reply to: TheTory

Can you refer to a time when free speech in its broadest definition hasn't been restricted by threats of 'violence, economic loss, social ostracism, and much more' ?

If not it is a little bit absurd to suggest that there is any form of assault on free speech.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 11:45 AM
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a reply to: zazzafrazz

The problem Zazza, Is that Liberals are much much different now than they once were.

The extremities to which they'll go to is untold.
edit on 7/6/2016 by awareness10 because: A Liberal made me do it.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 11:46 AM
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AA (affirmitive action) is still neccesarry in the current social climate. Eventually we will outgrow it and we can do away with it, but for now we need it.

One of tou stated that we should all be treated equally and each man should stand on his/her own merits, accomplishments, skills etc.

Both Left and Right wingers agree on that concept (except for right extremist racists)

The problem is..

Have you ever seen the documentary Freakanomics?

They had 2 identical resumes they sent out to major companies.. same accomplishments, education, etc.. the exact same identical resumes. The only difference was the name at the top, one resume had a "white" sounding name like "Chris Redford" (as an example) the other had a "black" sounding name like "Jamar Brown."

I believe the "white" resume received 80% or more (i dont remember the exact #) interview requests than the other.

Affirmitive Action helps balance the table that the systemic racism that many dont believe exists throws out of whack.

I am a caucasian, lretty far left liberal, but I had the opportunity to grow up in an impoverished black neighborhood and I saw first hand the disadvantages. I saw first hand the systemic racism they helped keep my friends down, and thay made it exponentially more difficult for them.

Is AA ideal? No.. its not. However it is neccesary until we can perform the same type.of experiment and get more equal results.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 11:53 AM
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a reply to: ScepticScot

The assault on free speech has been going on forever. But it gets a little more worrisome when it is assaulted by those who claim to have liberal values.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: awareness10

I don't think so, Mosyt of my family and friends are relaxed and liberal minded. The only thing that has changed is people use terms to create an insult. They try and REBRAND a term to fit their agenda.

The wonderful suffragettes, those magnificent liberal minded "feminazis" that changed the lives of half the population of their country for the better by getting us freedom were considered radicals and the filth of humanity, when in truth they fabulously created the freedom from total oppression for women without the firing of a bullet.

I look at them as heroes, their counterparts in their days did not.
It's all perspective.

I see idiot people on both sides of the fence, but in general to be liberal is to be open minded and no matter how hard people try to change the term into a insult, it won't work on me, I will always wonder being a liberal or a feminist etc a COMPLIMENT.

True liberty comes from being liberal minded, without it you would have had no revolution, no vote for women, no equality for brown people, no freedom of religion, no education for all not just the upper class.



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