It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Flag Burning - 1st or Blasphemy?

page: 1
3
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 05:04 PM
link   
Hey folks....I am trying my efforts in a realm I never post in...the political arena. I had a superb question to bring up due to a local event. I shall explain

A mid-20's male was arrested in my town a couple of days ago due to flag burning. He also, however made a threat to someone so after the States Attorney released the charges for flag burning due to it being unconstitutional, she is still deciding whether to charge for the threat.

Ok...with that said....I have some questions and statement and would love your honest, respectful position. I am not actually looking to debate. Obviously, I am not trying to play gatekeeper...do what you gotta do. But for me personally, I am interested in hearing the real opinions.

Ok so we know Texas v. Johnson made the position legally clear and valid. My state actually has a low level offense for flag burning but obviously SCOTUS overrides.

Now....let's begin with the discussion

Many of the comments were clearly biased. I live in a weird mix of a very Red town with a very Blue university in it. Needless to say, whiny conservatives and whiny liberals are everywhere.

What do you think of the following comments and questions....some will be a bit clear cut, some more thought-provoking (hopefully). I promise I will try to equally pick on both sides

1. "This loser should just leave the damn country if he doesn't like it." - I ask in this case....First, does burning a flag actually mean someone hates the country? Could it be they love the country and the abilities and freedoms they have, but are also disappointing with something?

2. "Freedom of speech MEANS freedom of speech." (the response) "So I can see that you are likely gay by your profile. Does that mean you wouldn't argue one bit if this guy burned a PRIDE flag?" (no response back...which I can only assume the person either left the conversation because they didn't care...or because they felt caught) - I ask in this case...if freedom of speech is precious, should we not allow people to say negative things against misrepresented groups? Should LGBTQ+ members be allowed to silence those who speak against them? Is not freedom of speech a blanket statement with the exception of violence? (PS....in case you can't tell...yes I play for both sides...I really ask myself this a lot...but for the moment my thought is not important)

3. "If you were a soldier or family of a veteran/POW/MIA, you'd think differently." - I ask in this case...is this true? Should a soldier/veteran's voice be somehow more important than a civilian's voice? Shouldn't a soldier fight for the constitution and everything that comes with it? Should a soldier be able to watch a flag burn and know that he/she fought for that freedom?

4. "This is WAY different than burning a PRIDE flag...that is hate speech. This is a protest." I ask in this case...Is this any different? If burning a PRIDE is hate speech, could we not say that burning the US Flag is hate speech towards soldiers/veterans?

Ok...so hopefully...hopefully...this will stay rational and calm

thanks folks




posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 05:06 PM
link   
a reply to: KyoZero

Free expression.

His burning a flag does not infringe upon the rights of anyone else.

I find it distasteful and I would never do it, but people should be free to express themselves as they see fit.



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 05:08 PM
link   
Burning the flag is the only dignified way to destroy it.

U.S. Code › Title 4 › Chapter 1 › § 8 4 U.S. Code § 8 - Respect for flag

No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.

(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.

(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.

(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.

(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.

(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.

(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.

(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.

(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
edit on 5-7-2016 by TheAmazingYeti because: formatting



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 05:19 PM
link   
I'm wondering why the flag should be at half mast for any politicized mass death event. I thought that honor was for other things.



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 05:22 PM
link   
a reply to: DBCowboy

Appreciate you answering the question at hand...and respectfully so. I tend towards the agreement that free speech is absolute with the exception of inciting violence. But again, I would never personally do it. Being a veteran myself, I am not sure my words carry more 'weight' than others...nor should they



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 05:23 PM
link   
a reply to: TheAmazingYeti

ok...so....to the OP now, since this was burnt in protest. Do you have any thoughts on he specific questions I asked or the comments I carried over?



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 05:24 PM
link   
a reply to: KyoZero

I'm a vet also. I think it would be almost hypocritical to deny freedoms while stating that I'm fighting for them.



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 05:29 PM
link   
In my opinion, a flag burning is showing that you don't believe that the country that the flag stands for, exists anymore.

At least, that's why I would burn a flag.



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 05:31 PM
link   
a reply to: KyoZero

People do far worse disrespect to the flag everyday and they don't even realize it.



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 05:42 PM
link   
The government in no way, shape or form should be able to stop you from or punish you for burning or desecrating a flag in anyway you please. That is an absolute right and freedom. Now, I reserve the right to smack you in the head if I see you doing it and deal with what repercussions come of it. Others might post your picture on face book and people will call you names. Or people might boycott your bushiness etc. You have freedom of speech from the government under the first amendment as you well should. However, that freedom also can come with repercussions from others. So use it wisely.



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 05:47 PM
link   
a reply to: KyoZero

Well, flag burning is disrespectful - very disrespectful - but that is sort of the point, is it not?

It is a distasteful expression of discontent, but an expression nonetheless.
It should be legal.

Also: Considering some of the alternative ways of expressing discontent that we have seen, such as riots, bombings, shootings, flag burning is harmless, yet powerful. I will not downright condone flag burning, but all things considered, it is not the worst way of going around protesting.



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 06:26 PM
link   

originally posted by: MrSpad
The government in no way, shape or form should be able to stop you from or punish you for burning or desecrating a flag in anyway you please. That is an absolute right and freedom. Now, I reserve the right to smack you in the head if I see you doing it and deal with what repercussions come of it. Others might post your picture on face book and people will call you names. Or people might boycott your bushiness etc. You have freedom of speech from the government under the first amendment as you well should. However, that freedom also can come with repercussions from others. So use it wisely.


^^^^this^^^^ slow clap
edit on 5-7-2016 by Jaxsmash because: added slow clap



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 06:42 PM
link   
a reply to: MrSpad

Awesome response...thoughtful as well

I admittedly disagree with a few posters here on a lot of things of other topics...but loving the answers so far

So may I ask a follow up of you Mrspad? Totally genuine and neutral

If tomorrow I burn a flag, don't get charged, but then a person posts my picture on FB, do you think that should be allowed? Could that be seen as inciting violence on me in the same way when Spike Lee posted the (admittedly wrong) address of the couple who were thought to be Zimmerman's parents?

To simplify, if I do something distasteful, but in my right, should we be allowed to post my personal info?

Thanks!
edit on 5-7-2016 by KyoZero because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 08:45 PM
link   
a reply to: KyoZero

My answer to the thread title - it's always protected by the 1st Amendment, and it could also be blasphemy, or in bad taste, or disgusting, or any other adjective we want to give it (but that doesn't affect the person's right to do it.)

As for the numbered items:

1) I think the "love but disappointed/angry with" thing represents a fair amount of the flag burners.

2) I think people's right to burn any flag should be protected equally - it shouldn't matter whether it is the US flag, the Somali Pirate flag, a Gay Pride flag, or any other flag.

3) I get it about a soldier or family member feeling differently about someone's right to do so, as they carry more experiences which might pain them to see such a level of disrespect, but again, that doesn't mean they have any valid reason to stop it from happening - just their opinion that it is rude, ignorant, stupid, whatever.

4) Goes with #2. It shouldn't matter.

Personally, I have a lot of problems with the way a lot of things are done in this country, but I still love my country. I would never burn a flag - in my opinion, that is symbolic of burning the whole thing, the good and the bad. There's no reason to disrespect all of the good of our nation, historically and in the present, in protest of the bad.

Perhaps I would burn effegies (is that the plural of effigy??) of some of the evildoers who misuse our nation, our people, and our military personnel, but never the US Flag.

From an irreverent perspective, I would never burn a flag because the smell of burning flags and the chemicals in the fumes are disgusting.



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 08:48 PM
link   
Use it for toilet paper for all I care. We eat food off the damn image on plates & wipe our pie-holes with flag-emblazoned napkins, so this really should be a no-brainer in that it's just an image. Literally only an image & form doesn't matter much. Although for some reason, threads are sacred o.O People in this country make zero sense.



posted on Jul, 5 2016 @ 11:47 PM
link   

originally posted by: KyoZero
a reply to: MrSpad

Awesome response...thoughtful as well

I admittedly disagree with a few posters here on a lot of things of other topics...but loving the answers so far

So may I ask a follow up of you Mrspad? Totally genuine and neutral

If tomorrow I burn a flag, don't get charged, but then a person posts my picture on FB, do you think that should be allowed? Could that be seen as inciting violence on me in the same way when Spike Lee posted the (admittedly wrong) address of the couple who were thought to be Zimmerman's parents?

To simplify, if I do something distasteful, but in my right, should we be allowed to post my personal info?

Thanks!


If you publicly burn a flag your doing it to gain attention to whatever reason your doing. That makes it open season on you so long as people break the law, as i suggesting you be killed etc. However, pointing who you are, where you live is all fine. You do not burn a flag unless you a trying to get a reaction you can not complain when you get that is not positive.



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 12:12 AM
link   
If the only way someone can think to voice a grievance is to burn the American Flag, then they have no true understanding of effective protest matters.

The majority of instances in recent history of flag burning has been associated with some very weak and simpleton arguments that a few classes on actual Government (not some of this ultra-liberal b.s. they're pushing in modern University's, but I digress) might cure.

Most people don't really understand what the Flag means to a lot of people, and using a symbol that has a lot of heartstrings attached to it will usually yield a very passionate rebuttal for the symbolically associative Patriots. I say this as both a Patriot who loves this Country and the TRUE Values it stands for, and because I have been in my fair share of protests and advocacy programs for positive change during my college years, but I never associated with those who burn the flag at the drop of a hat or right off the bat for damn good reason.

Usually that reason is because they're damn fools...sometimes dangerous violent damn fools.

Most "protesters" just grab on the the biggest symbol they can to "make their statement" and because they cause such a fervor over desecrating one of the most cherished symbols of our Nation before learning the ropes of how to PROPERLY air a grievance (most of those nutjobs haven't even written a letter to their Representatives or Congresspersons before they run out into the fray with a flag and lighter fluid - I say this because I've been there and talked with a lot of these types so bear with me on my perspective here.)

It would make a lot more sense in my mind as a former activist and Concerned Citizen if they didn't "go for the jugular" and isolate those members of the Patriotic Community who would be willing to help fight to defend their cause if only they hadn't desecrated Old Glory.

Seriously.

These "modern protesters" aren't writing letters or going through proper channels, and if they really want to see Change happen in their lifetimes, they would do well not to isolate themselves as insolent twits by failing to learn a thing or two about how to gain traction via proper advocacy and pulling as many people in to help aid their Freedom Fight as possible.

And yeah, that includes the Old Fart's like me....who honor and value the American Flag, the True Principles on which this Country was founded and the proper mindset we ALL need to get back to Defending and Restoring this Nation to.

And yeah, if these poor saps are so dull and inefficient at speaking coherently and running an effective protest that they need to burn the flag to show "how mad they are"....I'll always read further into WHY they're doing it....but you know what? Nine times out of ten they're just idiots burning rage because they can't think of anything better to do.

In short, ya wanna burn the flag?
Fine, whatever.
Most likely we'll just think you a childish fool with nothing of value to contribute.

But hey, that's just me.
Feel free to rip me a new one, I'm used to it.
Don't expect a response.
Some of us work for a living.


edit on 7/6/16 by GENERAL EYES because: usual edits....can't cramp my formatting style baby



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 12:51 AM
link   
a reply to: KyoZero

We are personally attached to the American flag so naturally its a fight that we see being picked.
Its redundant what any law might say.
I guess draping one over our family dead has made an impression, civilians should learn to respect it that way, or face the threat of physical harm.
I haven't done it ...yet.
edit on 6-7-2016 by cavtrooper7 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 04:35 AM
link   
a reply to: KyoZero

Okay, I'll bite. I'm an aussie and have seen my national flag burnt on this countries soil many a time by other nationalities and minority groups.

"Yeah, let's burn the aussie flag"!!!! Why?

Anyway, some years back a councillor at Nowra (New South Wales) (Greg Watson) burned the Aboriginal flag in a personal protest.

Well!!! How dare he!!!! How disgusting - yada yada yada.

Never heard the end of it. But in this situ I think what is good for one mob is the same for the other. So, if you burn my nation's flag I can burn yours, please don't cry, "Racist Aussie Captain Cook scum" at me.

I see internally and overseas these petty (and c'mon, they are childish and petty) protests where certain persuasions burn the Aussie flag to get some form of recognition or notoriety for that matter.

Go ahead, waste your time, burn all you want but I don't need a match and gasoline because in my mind I wouldn't waste physical time doing such. I just burnt your country or affiliation to the ground just thinking about you and point out to my kids, 'Look at these idiots'. (in the broad sense). 'Don't spend your time with them.'

But, ISIS flag, burn away you mob.

Kind regards,

Bally



posted on Jul, 6 2016 @ 07:57 AM
link   
a reply to: MrSpad




That is an absolute right and freedom. Now, I reserve the right to smack you in the head if I see you doing it and deal with what repercussions come of it


So if it is an absolute right and freedom, how do you rationalize violence against one who exercises those rights. You take up violence - and pay for the consequences later - and that absolves your moral dilemma?

As long as you pay for the consequences later, can be used for "I feel like buying a nice watch, I shall steal the money with violence and worry about it later"




top topics



 
3
<<   2 >>

log in

join