A moral question for the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave - what of the disabled?

There is a big difference between Welfare & Disability.

Welfare is for people making less than the poverty level, to help them get on their feet till they do.

Disability is for folks suffering a injury, or chronic illness that forces them to be unable to work period. It's usually paid out based on what your prior income was before getting injured. So it's a system you' and your employer have both already paid into. That income from Social Security Dissability is also taxable if IIRC.

It's a long drawn out process to be deemed eligible as well. Reams of documentation are necessary.

As far as being "seen as a scrounger" it depends. Personally I also take the attitude that it's generally genuine, at least till evidence of the contrary is presented. Such as one idiot I know of who brags about gaming the system. That person is taking away from someone who needs the help and isn't getting it.

I also know more than a few who trotted out all their aches & pains because they lost their jobs and decided applying for disability would solve their problems. I trust the system to weed them out tho.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment

I understand that you would view unnecessary welfare claims as being insipid/ fraught with worrying social ramifications and so on, but how do you guys view the welfare status of the disabled?

Nay worry yourself. The Rich get welfare. The poor get welfare. The disabled get welfare. And soon, the middle class will also get welfare.

The reason for welfare is simple. Society has taken away your right to hunt, walk, farm the land, and occupy yourself in many types and modes of survival, because it has "allocated the resources" to others, and is policing their property and rights so that your natural rights are denied. The welfare is the "compensation" for your compliance and submission to the system.

You could, for example, catch every dog and cat you see on the street, and cook and eat them. But, that's not allowed. Although, in some parts of the world, people do just that. Animal rights activists would complain. The owners of the animals would sue. Everything already belongs to somebody, or the state.

Man is born into the world free, but lives everywhere in chains. He can't do this, and he is not allowed to do that.

Yet, he must survive.

The coming problem is that computers and robots will take over most of the jobs, so everybody will have to get welfare.

Just as there was the "industrial revolution" that brought in this current system of work for hire, the "computing revolution" is phasing out that old system.

I saw a program the other day that showed how "steak" was being manufactured in the lab, without the need to slaughter cows. It has arrived in the human testing stage. People sat down and ate meat that never came from any animal, and couldn't tell the difference from real meat. Animal rights groups will be ecstatic, no more slaughter of any animals. All meat will be produced in the factory, by an automated process.

That means, no more livestock farming. All the farm land that is how held for livestock can be "re-purposed" for other things, like natural parks, or real estate developments.

Eventually, food will be free. We will have the capability to manufacture food without killing anything, in completely automated factories without expensive human labor. And each person is limited in the amount of food he can consume. So, there will be food for all. You walk into the grocery, pick up what you want, and walk out. Facial recognition programs will ID you and tally your account, which is credited with deposits every month, just to limit how much people are tempted to "waste."

Welfare for all is the future. The disabled just got a jump-start into future lifestyle and so they can appreciate the simplicity of the type of living a bit more.

People will want to work.

Man has to occupy his time doing something. Life is boring if you're not doing something useful.

Only this time, you really get the freedom to chose what you want to do. True freedom. Not the fake freedom we currently have, that tells people they are free to do what they want, but then only certain positions are vacant or available so that, in reality, they have to to something they don't want, to survive.

So, yea, welfare is good. It's better than workfare.

Because in workfare, people "fear" losing their jobs, and that leads to lots of negative consequences, like corruption, and salve labor, and cheating, and workplace violence.

Just think, if you don't have to work to survive, no one would every kill their co-workers, or their boss.

They'd just tell them "bye, bye" with a smile.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Is that just concerning federal assistance, or all states as well?

I don't know about all states, but I was under the impression that outside of food stamps they don't give any meaningful aid. I know that in Ohio the cash assistance you can get from state programs is limited to a couple hundred a month ($300 or so I think it is), and that's only if you have children, and only if your total income including other cash assistance is less than $600 or so.

originally posted by: Caver78
Disability is for folks suffering a injury, or chronic illness that forces them to be unable to work period. It's usually paid out based on what your prior income was before getting injured. So it's a system you' and your employer have both already paid into. That income from Social Security Dissability is also taxable if IIRC.

The more you pay into disability the more you get back, but it has a pretty low cap on it. If you've only put part time minimum wage into the system for 5 years you'll get back X, but if you were bringing in millions per year, you'll only get back 2X. So although it scales a little bit, it has a pretty narrow range and for the most part disabilities are developed early in a persons career/life so short of random accidents that cause physical deformities, they don't ever get the chance to pay into the system.

originally posted by: Caver78
As far as being "seen as a scrounger" it depends. Personally I also take the attitude that it's generally genuine, at least till evidence of the contrary is presented. Such as one idiot I know of who brags about gaming the system. That person is taking away from someone who needs the help and isn't getting it.

I really hate this attitude, and let me explain why. I get disability, I'm not a scrounger but if you look at me you'll never know I'm disabled, at times I'm even completely normal. But every time I read about a person who was found to be defrauding the system it makes me second guess myself, because I can function usually. Does that mean the doctors got it wrong? Am I really one of those people scamming the system? Do I really have any right to other peoples money? Am I just a leech? Should I simply disappear?

These questions and more pop into my mind, literally every single time I read about people complaining about those who scam the system. And believe me, it gets really old questioning on a daily basis or even more frequently than that, if I'm part of the problem. I'm hardly unique in this regard, every person I know who gets disability finds themselves asking the same question constantly.

I'm also a disabled man in the uk and thankfully I've never received any discrimination for claiming benefits. I don't care, it really is a small price to pay for having a disability. I'd much rather be working on a zero hour contract for minimum wage than on benefits. I find the worse thing is not really being able to get on and off public transport independently or visit country pubs in my village, because I can't get up and down the stone steep stairs without help.
I can't even go back to the volunteer job I used to do, because I'm so vulnerable on my feet. It really isn't about the money, more the inconvenience of being disabled, in a country that doesn't really cater very well for those with disabilities. Since I had a stroke in 2014, I've hardly been out at all. A holiday is out of the question arm. I couldn't care about the money. I'd rather have my independence and freedom and a positive future than a bit of money from the government. All the money in the world couldn't improve my life at the moment. I'd people who moan about people on disability, must have a really crap life to be envious of those getting disabilitymuch rather work for minimum wage on a zero hour contract. I'm sick of being imprisoned in a broken body, with no site of getting better.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Geez dude, and I though I had it bad. Well I do, but not like that. I'd like to say something that is helpful, a solution or a path to a solution, I can't. Words fail me. Everything but compassion falls short and that isn't transferrable by internet.

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
I'm also a disabled man in the uk and thankfully I've never received any discrimination for claiming benefits. I don't care, it really is a small price to pay for having a disability. I'd much rather be working on a zero hour contract for minimum wage than on benefits. I find the worse thing is not really being able to get on and off public transport independently or visit country pubs in my village, because I can't get up and down the stone steep stairs without help.
I can't even go back to the volunteer job I used to do, because I'm so vulnerable on my feet. It really isn't about the money, more the inconvenience of being disabled, in a country that doesn't really cater very well for those with disabilities. Since I had a stroke in 2014, I've hardly been out at all. A holiday is out of the question arm. I couldn't care about the money. I'd rather have my independence and freedom and a positive future than a bit of money from the government. All the money in the world couldn't improve my life at the moment. I'd people who moan about people on disability, must have a really crap life to be envious of those getting disabilitymuch rather work for minimum wage on a zero hour contract. I'm sick of being imprisoned in a broken body, with no site of getting better.

That is one area where the USA has done a good job, most businesses have access for the disabled, that being said, someone in a wheelchair has no access to my office. My heart & thoughts go out to you, I have watched people taken down by their minds and by their bodies, those that are taken down by their bodies have the roughest go, best of luck to you from across the pond.

I'm disabled in America and it's not so great. I'm one step away from being homeless. They cut my food assistance to almost nothing. I went from $200 a month to $16. Obama passed the farm bill 2 years ago and it had cuts to the food assistance program. 16 state had federal funding cuts. 200,000 disabled elderly and veterans were cut off in my state alone.

Up until Obamacare passed I had excellent insurance. I have major medical issues and my medical bills were paid 100%. Since the affordable care act my insurance no longer pays from my doctor because he is in another county. I live on the county line.

I had a meeting with my social worker the other day at family services. I told her I needed more assistance. I told here that my insurance no longer covers my doctors visit. Her exact words to me were "SO".

I get $850 a month from disability. I spend $250 on food and $120 on my doctor visit once a month. I live with my grandmother because I can't afford to live anywhere else. She's had breast cancer in the past. I don't know what I'm going to do if something happens to her. I have no car and I can't save any money. I'm one step away form jumping off a cliff.

originally posted by: wantsome
I'm disabled in America and it's not so great. I'm one step away from being homeless. They cut my food assistance to almost nothing. I went from $200 a month to $16. Obama passed the farm bill 2 years ago and it had cuts to the food assistance program. 16 state had federal funding cuts. 200,000 disabled elderly and veterans were cut off in my state alone.

Up until Obamacare passed I had excellent insurance. I have major medical issues and my medical bills were paid 100%. Since the affordable care act my insurance no longer pays from my doctor because he is in another county. I live on the county line.

I had a meeting with my social worker the other day at family services. I told her I needed more assistance. I told here that my insurance no longer covers my doctors visit. Her exact words to me were "SO".

I get $850 a month from disability. I spend $250 on food and $120 on my doctor visit once a month. I live with my grandmother because I can't afford to live anywhere else. She's had breast cancer in the past. I don't know what I'm going to do if something happens to her. I have no car and I can't save any money. I'm one step away form jumping off a cliff.

Don't jump off a cliff you will hurt the rocks, no seriously man, I am sure you are helping your grandmother out, that is what life is about.

I am a bit confused by your narrative though, just got my SS statement a couple of days ago, if I go the disability route, I get 1400 a month, medicaid for the first two years, and medicare after that. I am 56, so maybe the difference is age?

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: wantsome
I'm disabled in America and it's not so great. I'm one step away from being homeless. They cut my food assistance to almost nothing. I went from $200 a month to $16. Obama passed the farm bill 2 years ago and it had cuts to the food assistance program. 16 state had federal funding cuts. 200,000 disabled elderly and veterans were cut off in my state alone.

Up until Obamacare passed I had excellent insurance. I have major medical issues and my medical bills were paid 100%. Since the affordable care act my insurance no longer pays from my doctor because he is in another county. I live on the county line.

I had a meeting with my social worker the other day at family services. I told her I needed more assistance. I told here that my insurance no longer covers my doctors visit. Her exact words to me were "SO".

I get $850 a month from disability. I spend $250 on food and $120 on my doctor visit once a month. I live with my grandmother because I can't afford to live anywhere else. She's had breast cancer in the past. I don't know what I'm going to do if something happens to her. I have no car and I can't save any money. I'm one step away form jumping off a cliff.

Don't jump off a cliff you will hurt the rocks, no seriously man, I am sure you are helping your grandmother out, that is what life is about.

I am a bit confused by your narrative though, just got my SS statement a couple of days ago, if I go the disability route, I get 1400 a month, medicaid for the first two years, and medicare after that. I am 56, so maybe the difference is age?

At $1400 a month when your medicare kicks in after 2 years they deduct $110 out of your disability. If your get under $910 from disability the state picks up the $110 medicare payment. I qualify for both medicaid and medicare. But as of right now I dropped medicaid and went with straight medicare. My deductible is $700 a year. I have to pay $700 before medicare will pay any of my medical bills other then prescriptions. With disability you earn credits while working based on your income and the amount of time your worked. The longer you've worked the more credits you get. The more credits you have the more money you get. I got disability at a young age. Also since it took so long to win my case I lost work credits while waiting. I was told by my lawyer the reason it took so long to win disability is because of my age. Social security don't like to give out disability to younger people. I had enough work credits to get $1100 a month but lost them waiting. It took me six years to get disability. It should have been an open shut case but besides being young my first lawyer also botched the case.

My aunt had liver cancer. She got a transplant and now gets disability. She gets $1200 a month but she didn't get disability until she was 59. She didn't make a lot of money when she was working. She was a furniture saleswomen and worked off of commission.

I'm at my wits end with the system. When I was working I was bringing home $800 a week. I now get that in a month. I would love to go back to work but it's just not an option for me. I'm mad as hell about my life.

My grandfather died a few years back. My grandmother appreciates me being here. We live in one of the most dangerous areas in the country. She helps me out a lot I don't know what I'm going to do if something happens to her.

a reply to: Aazadan

OMG! I only wrote 1/2 a thought & not clearly either!

My saying I assumed "it's genuine" I MEANT someone's disability!!! Altho it can read the other way.
Facepalm!!

I am partially disabled, being blind in one eye with iffy vision in the remaining one. No depth perception and have to have my face up to things to read them.

People look funny at me every time I park in a handicapped spot at the store. I literally CAN't do straight in parking. I can walk ok if there is no uneven ground and I walk into people the entire time I'm getting groceries. Have to stand right up on the shelves to read the specials, and labels are fun. (not)

Because I can be mobile I question myself all the time. Am I gimpy enough to use my crip-tag? As I see really really older people bent over shuffling towards the store entrance.

For about a year I wouldn't even shop. I used up all are canned goods an stuff in the freezer.
I rationed, cause being out scared the crap outta me. My blindness was sudden and it threw me for a massive loop.
To this day I am only OK driving places I've been in the past cause roadsigns are near impossible and if I loose my license I am screwed.

Did find a job I can do but the pay sucks. I'm pretty good at faking it, but I have to find work arounds for all kinds of things on the "fly". I have to memorize all kinds of things, like where restrooms are at DR offices, where groceries are in several stores, an if things change, again, I'm in panic mode.

Crowds scare me now cause I can't see people coming up on me. I trip and fall a lot since the ground isn't where it looks like it is. Same with curbs & stairs.

Really sorry I wasn't clearer!!
btw disability fought me and it was SO mortifying and intrusive I just can't go thru it again. I've worked my whole life and will keep doing what I can till I can't.

a reply to: Caver78I have paranoid schizophrenia. I have spent the past 20 years since I came down with it learning to hide. For all outward appearances I look normal like everyone else. I have hallucinations and delusions but I don't talk about them not even to my doctor. I feel like a chameleon because I hide it so well. I've talked to other people with family members that have it and they were astonished I hide it so well. If often leads people to think there's nothing wrong with me. Even my own family has a hard time understanding what I've been through and struggle with. People have a hard time understanding what it's like to have a disability unless you have a railroad spike sticking out of your head.

I don't know when the thought process started that said "The government should take care of ___________ ". Whether it's disabled, homeless, hetero/homo, sick, etc. The govt isn't your momma, or your daddy.

originally posted by: jjkenobi
I don't know when the thought process started that said "The government should take care of ___________ ". Whether it's disabled, homeless, hetero/homo, sick, etc. The govt isn't your momma, or your daddy.

Disability is an insurance policy we all collectively pay into. It's insurance so if some of us get sick we don't end up destitute. Enjoy your health and hope you don't need it someday.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Caver78
Disability is for folks suffering a injury, or chronic illness that forces them to be unable to work period. It's usually paid out based on what your prior income was before getting injured. So it's a system you' and your employer have both already paid into. That income from Social Security Dissability is also taxable if IIRC.

The more you pay into disability the more you get back, but it has a pretty low cap on it. If you've only put part time minimum wage into the system for 5 years you'll get back X, but if you were bringing in millions per year, you'll only get back 2X. So although it scales a little bit, it has a pretty narrow range and for the most part disabilities are developed early in a persons career/life so short of random accidents that cause physical deformities, they don't ever get the chance to pay into the system.

originally posted by: Caver78
As far as being "seen as a scrounger" it depends. Personally I also take the attitude that it's generally genuine, at least till evidence of the contrary is presented. Such as one idiot I know of who brags about gaming the system. That person is taking away from someone who needs the help and isn't getting it.

I really hate this attitude, and let me explain why. I get disability, I'm not a scrounger but if you look at me you'll never know I'm disabled, at times I'm even completely normal. But every time I read about a person who was found to be defrauding the system it makes me second guess myself, because I can function usually. Does that mean the doctors got it wrong? Am I really one of those people scamming the system? Do I really have any right to other peoples money? Am I just a leech? Should I simply disappear?

These questions and more pop into my mind, literally every single time I read about people complaining about those who scam the system. And believe me, it gets really old questioning on a daily basis or even more frequently than that, if I'm part of the problem. I'm hardly unique in this regard, every person I know who gets disability finds themselves asking the same question constantly.

If you question yourself this often, I am giving you a pass.

got no problem helping those that need it, the one for legitimate reasons can't work. it's those that are healthy as a ox that can work that don't that pisses me off. now don't misunderstand i realize sometimes it 's hard to get a job and i can see a little help then. but to not work just because you don't want to,that there is some bs.

there is one thing about the disabled that burns my butt. they get all there good parking spaces.

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
got no problem helping those that need it, the one for legitimate reasons can't work. it's those that are healthy as a ox that can work that don't that pisses me off. now don't misunderstand i realize sometimes it 's hard to get a job and i can see a little help then. but to not work just because you don't want to,that there is some bs.

there is one thing about the disabled that burns my butt. they get all there good parking spaces.

Most states have vocational rehabilitation programs. They're designed for people that are disabled to go to school with some extra financial assistance, and learn a job they think they can do. I'm working with one now. They cover books, they cover tuition, they cover other equipment if it's needed, and once you graduate they get you a paid for job recruiter to set you up with employers and (hopefully) get a range of offers.

All with the idea that you can eventually be self sufficient.

These programs are very under funded though, it took me 3 years to get into it, and they don't take just anyone... you have to pass a few work trials, and then offers from those work trials have to fall through, proving that you need to specialize.

It's a great program, but it could use more promotion and more funding.

Also, the disabled do not get the good parking spots. There is a difference between handicapped and disabled. Handicapped refers specifically to physical ailments that limit mobility.

There might be many differences depending upon state, I don't know. I can speak of what I am familiar with in California, through my sisters experience.

My sister was born with brain damage, due to problems during delivery that cut off her oxygen for several minutes.
She has physical and mental disabilities- motor skill disabilities, and a very low IQ.

Doctors told my mom, when she was 1 yr. old that she would remain a vegetable all her life, and never walk, talk, feed herself, or use a toilet. They said to put her in a home fo some sort and forget about her.
Unfortunately, my parents were only 19 and had no money to pay for any sort of "home", so they had to do the best they could. (that right there gives an opening view into the american system...)

She did learn to do all those things, just much later- she began to walk at three yrs., became toilet trained at five, learned to talk but was incomprehensible (to anyone outside our immediate family) until she was about 13 and had surgery on her mouth. She has mini seziures all the time, has had a couple grand mal seizures in the last couple of years. She has the mentality of a nine year old, thereabouts.
-To give you an idea of what kind of disability were talking about.

She cannot get any financial aid or disability. There is a written test to determine her cognitive abilities that is used to determine eligability, and she has taken it several times, and each time she was barely above the line of acceptance.
She has always been obligated to find other ways to live. She got pregnant in her early twenties (she is actually quite beautiful and is prone to being taken advantage of by young men), and had to support and raise her son alone.

Because California did not, at that time, have much in the way of public transport, she had to be able to drive.
She took the driving test 9 times (over a period of several years) and when she finally passed, she had 9 accidents in the first year (with her baby son in the car).
She has only been able to get minimum wage jobs, like standing on a street corner dressed as a chicken advertising a restaurant; (she was hit in the head during that job knocked out, and they think that is the reason for the big seizures now),
or being a bag girl in grocery stores. After 10 years in the same store, she has been moved up to being an aid in the bakery section. She is very proud of this, though her wage remains minimum.

Her son was molested by a man in her apartment when he was five, they both have been through struggles I shiver to think about. The boy (who is totally normal, with a high IQ) ended up in a psychiatric facility through out his teen years because he was constantly suicidal. (thank god he had a father who had health insurance!)

So anyway.... in America the idea is to limit aid to only those who are in the absolute most need. Since no one wants to work for the state, and jobs such as social worker are devalued as being almost accomplices to the lazy, very little human interaction is done in the processing.
This written test, for example, is easy to not pass if you are intelligent enough to understand you'll get no money if you pass... but for someone who is mentally challenged, they just try as hard as they can (she was always proud she passed, couldn't get the implications of that).

It is very badly set up in that way.

But her life illustrates so well the saying "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger". Some Americans would point out how far she got, which she probably wouldn't have if she had been in a home (if we'd been rich). I cannot help but think of the danger her, her child, and others have been exposed to because of this, how such challenges end up being an obstacle for the extended family, which counters the base principle of the american dream- that everyone has the same chance in life to succeed, no matter what they were born into- tell that to the boy of five who has to take care of and protect his mother. (he had to get emergency help for her regularly, when she would have accidents) .
The challenges of that type are more or less limited to the poor.

I don't know what your disability is, I don't know much about the system in the UK. I just have this experience with that of the US, in California, and I always felt it was very badly run and organized. I have applied for aid when I was a student and single mother, and they put you through loops to weed out applicants- like claim each month that they lost your file.
I would need to go down there and wait all day, for several days. There were scary people there. A lot of women who were junkies and prostitutes, with dirty babies crawling on the spit stained floors in nothing but dirty diapers.
But they got the money because they could stay there all day. If you got even a part time job, or tried to get an education, like me, you couldn't do that, and you'd be unable to get aid.

The system there, from all I saw, was set up in a way that enabled the lazy, the irresponsible, the dishonest, and rejected those who really needed help and those who had any desire to work a way out of their financial troubles.

No, the disabled are NOT taken care of in the US. My brother has autism and even though his father was a doctor, his social security amount is not enough to live on.

Right now my mother watches him but when she passes, I have to take care of him. Adult day care is pretty much non-existent and the few that exist are extremely expensive. Absolutely no programs or schools exists for adults.

I worry all the time about how I'm going to manage. We used to live by a group home, the residents lived in a small dirty home and ate bad food. Their only transportation were bikes which is very difficult in the extreme Chicago winters.