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Description: When only two choices are presented yet more exist, or a spectrum of possible choices exists between two extremes. False dilemmas are usually characterized by “either this or that” language, but can also be characterized by omissions of choices. Another variety is the false trilemma, which is when three choices are presented when more exist.
It’s seems a fairly logical statement to say, that something always existed and that whatever it is, is eternal…
originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Krazysh0t
Never gonna happen. If religion can't move the goal posts, and re-define god as necessary, they're sunk.
Originally posted by Krazysh0t
The god of the gaps argument exists because "god" isn't objectively defined thus there is a logical loophole that allows a believer to continue to push the goal posts back on what god is and isn't as new science is discovered.
Originally posted by Joecroft in the OP
For the record when I say the word God I’m not bringing in any other notion of God, from any particular type of Religion. I’m just thinking of the strict definition of the word God, which is “The Creator.”
Originally posted by Krazysh0t
If you believers would bother to properly define what god is and can do, then the god of the gaps argument wouldn't exist.
originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Krazysh0t
But science is declaring that the universe came about unaided and by some mechanistic process, without knowing how it works or whether that starting premise is even correct or not…Isn’t that also a “logical loophole”…?
Plus doesn’t science also push back the goal posts in light of new evidence etc…why can’t Religions about God, be aloud to do the same thing…
Originally posted by Joecroft in the OP
For the record when I say the word God I’m not bringing in any other notion of God, from any particular type of Religion. I’m just thinking of the strict definition of the word God, which is “The Creator.”
I’m only defining God as the Creator, I’m not bringing in any other specific religious notions about God into it play…except 1, or perhaps 2, if you include being eternal…
For the premise of this thread, I’m not bringing in any other religious notions about God into my argument…other than that which is universally accepted throughout most/ALL religions. Which is, that God is primarily defined as “The Creator”…and is of course eternal…- JC
Originally posted by boncho
Your dilemma is a false dilemma. A logical fallacy.
Description: When only two choices are presented yet more exist, or a spectrum of possible choices exists between two extremes. False dilemmas are usually characterized by “either this or that” language, but can also be characterized by omissions of choices. Another variety is the false trilemma, which is when three choices are presented when more exist.
There are plenty more options than what's been presented. And even the (2) that are presented, in them there are concrete statements, but they are coupled with varying interpretations. To break it down you can say for instance:
(1) God is eternal
That can be an option. But just because he's (or "it" is) eternal doesn't necessarily it's guided us at all.
(2) The Universe is eternal
Again, there's a lot of added stuff in there. But out of the two options you present, there are only two distinctions that can even be taken from them.
And now a list much longer can be added on to that:
(3) The universe is an illusion
(4) God exists but has had no contact with man
(5) God exists in many forms
(6) Many universes exist
(7) A simulation is running and non of us exist
Originally posted by boncho
Your original argument makes a leap of logic, an assumption and fails at that point because it bases everything off of that assumption. ]The only thing I could think of that wouldn't be that kind of false dilemma, is perhaps: (1) God exists. (2) God doesn't exist.
Originally posted by Joecroft
It’s seems a fairly logical statement to say, that something always existed and that whatever it is, is eternal…
Originally posted by boncho
We don't know this at all, it's certainly not proven or conclusively decided. Science tells us our universe had a beginning, which implies it very likely could have an end.
Originally posted by boncho
There are also many varying spiritualistic interpretations of reality and our existence. In essence, a debate to whether we exist at all, exist in a simulation, religious debate of the nature of reality, scientific debate about the nature of reality, so on and so forth.
Originally posted by boncho
A naked scientific interpretation of the universe and existence is: we know nothing, and everything is possible until proven impossible. But the most important variable is our lack of knowledge.
Originally posted by boncho
To have and admit zero knowledge, and go from there is a scientific interpretation of the evidence around us. Religion is offering us insight without evidence.
Originally posted by ignorant_ape
my opinion is that most religions are the ones with the double standard in this regard:
Originally posted by Joecroft in the OP
For the record when I say the word God I’m not bringing in any other notion of God, from any particular type of Religion. I’m just thinking of the strict definition of the word God, which is “The Creator.”
Originally posted by ignorant_ape
the " god of the gaps " argument arose because we can now explain a whole slew of phenonemon which were previously attributed to " gods "
further - religions are guity of special pleading , wherein :
Originally posted by ignorant_ape
they claim that " everything must have a creator " , but " god does not require a creator "
they cannot have it both ways
Originally posted by ignorant_ape
thats it - the " god of the gaps " preciscley describes the current limits of our inderstanding -…
Originally posted by Krazysh0t
Nope, science isn't doing that at all. The answer to the "god" question and intelligent design as it concerns science is "I don't know." There isn't enough evidence yet to say one way or the other. HOWEVER the evidence seems to suggest that the processes happened without intelligent direction. That doesn't mean that is the case though.
Originally posted by Krazysh0t
Apparently your definition of "strict" and science's definition of strict isn't the same thing because even what you are talking about here isn't properly defined by science. God could be a computer or god could be an intelligent being or god could be something else completely. So no, you are still aren't strict enough when just trying to identify if the universe had a creator or not.
Originally posted by Krazysh0t
Not all religions define god as a creator. Plus, not all religions believe god created the universe the same way. Also, as I said earlier there are still many possibilities that haven't been defined yet to explore this possibility.
Originally posted by Krazysh0t
The ultimate problem with god is that it is to subject to confirmation bias. People have determined that god exists FIRST then look for the evidence. Instead of building the evidence then building an idea to support it which science does.
Originally posted by Krazysh0t
In order for science to define god, it must define all the components that make god up first.
originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Krazysh0t
Well if science isn’t doing that at all in your opinion, and the answer of science is that “I don’t know”; then why do many scientists constantly use the response of “the God of the gaps” so frequently…especially in debates about the existence of God…???
It’s not so much strict, but more a case of the universal definition of God, (that the majority of religions share) a starting premise if you will…otherwise how can a discussion even get up and running to start with…? With the point being to keep it as simple as possible…surely you can understand that right…?
The majority of Religions define God as the creator, that’s also how God is primarily defined in most dictionaries…
But there’s only 2 options though, not having evidence for one doesn’t mean it’s not true. Added to which science doesn’t have conclusive evidence that the universe is only mechanistic in nature or has no “intelligent direction” a you put it…As you mentioned in your own post…
So how can science take the higher intellectual ground by using statements like “he/she believes in the God of Gaps”, when it could be equally argued that science is following it’s own gap, for which it has no conclusive evidence for…
Science can bring with it, it’s own set of bias too…Just research all the overturned scientific theories both past and recent and you’ll see what I mean…
But science can also try to extrapolate information, by using verifiable facts along with reason and thought experiments. Science doesn’t know what dark matter is, but that isn’t stopping them from proposing ideas about it…
We don’t have all knowledge as to how the universe works, but science is already leaning towards the no “intelligent direction” viewpoint…about the universe…
Shouldn’t we only declare we know, after conclusive evidence has been found, And I mean in relation to the no “intelligent direction” of the universe viewpoint…? My point is that science is defining it from that perspective, even though it doesn’t know all parameters…
- JC
Pr 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Joecroft
The god of the gaps argument exists because "god" isn't objectively defined thus there is a logical loophole that allows a believer to continue to push the goal posts back on what god is and isn't as new science is discovered. If you believers would bother to properly define what god is and can do, then the god of the gaps argument wouldn't exist.
when I say the word God I’m not bringing in any other notion of God, from any particular type of Religion. I’m just thinking of the strict definition of the word God, which is “The Creator.”
Originally posted by Pathena
But doesn't limiting the definition to "creator" introduce a notion?
people will start to drift, by talking about a flood, or how could those plagues have happened scientifically and so on and so forth…