The sin against the Holy Ghost?

a reply to: intrptr
If fear confuses you then use the term reverence.

a reply to: intrptr

It means spiritual death at the point of sin, it means natural death at the end of life. Remember God told Adam "the day you eat therof you shall surely die"? Did Adam physically die the day he at the forbidden fruit? No, he did not. But he spiritually was not allowed to have communion with God and was sent out of the garden in Eden. Spiritual death.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: ketsuko

The wages of sin is death. Always for any sin. Spiritual death.

That means physical death, like drinking or smoking, just for instance.

The wages of sinning will compromise your health till you die from it, (if you keep doing it).

If drinking was such a sin, why did Jesus turn water into wine? Now I agree that drinking to excess is a sin, but that has more to do with becoming addicted to drink (alcohol) which threatens to put something else in God's place in your heart.

The Bible doesn't always talk about strictly worldly things. In fact, we are called to be in the world, but not of it, so a lot of the scripture talks about things of the spiritual nature as much as things of the world. Sins are as much about things not to do in the world as they are about things of spiritual importance.

Judge drinking by its fruits, fermented fruit in alcohols case
Nothing good comes from alcohol
The Jews in Israel were not drinking pure spirit, full strength beer, vodka or bourbon.
What Jesus made was probably at most less than 3% alcohol, probably way less

What's excess in relation to alcohol, who decides
If you have to defend your position on alcohol, justify it, then you (and I don't mean you personally) have a quiet voice in your ear I suspect

I know...

a reply to: Raggedyman

What a clever trap!

If I try to converse with you on this, I look like I'm a lush trying to justify excess drinking. If I don't, you get to have the last word.

IMO alcohol is like sex and money. It isn't wrong in and of itself, but it can go very, very wrong when used careflessly, so it ought to be handled with care and respect for what it is.

Now shall we get back on topic?

a reply to: Raggedyman

I think it is when a true believer, knows the Triune God, denies the working of the Spirit for personnel glory
Uses their own knowledge of God for self gain, effectively using God to serve themselves, deliberately

I thought that sounded rather specific. Simony is what it's called, from Simon, who probably enjoyed being called "The Great Power" Acts 8:9-24. He got baptized, followed the disciple around, saw the Holy Spirit imparted through laying on of hands, then offered to pay the disciple for the ability.

20Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

EDIT:

No, I was wrong. What you describe isn't the same as Simony. There are similarities though.

a reply to: Raggedyman

That's actually not true, Passover (last supper) is in the springtime and the grape harvest is in the fall, 6 months earlier. They didn't have refrigeration back then, they only way to preserve the grape juice was to ferment it in wineskins or bottles. Nobody was marveling at 3% fermented grape juice at the wedding feast in Cana.

So that's tradition of the churches, but the wine in the Bible was wine, just like today. When it spoiled it was vinegar.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

To be fair, they did water it to cut its strength, and most water had some alcohol poured into it to disinfect it basically. It was just the convention of the times. If you didn't want to die of water born pathogens, you drank watered wine or beer or something like it most of the time.

Of course, they didn't know why.

a reply to: ketsuko

They purified the water with vinegar. Remember when the Romans offered Jesus "vinegar", it was their legion purified water. It was called "vinegar", but it was vinegar water.

Thank you, DISRAELI.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I've read accounts of 1st and 2nd Century Rabbis casting out or exorcising demons. Here's something a Rabbi wrote.

The Dead Sea Scrolls include several exorcism incantations and formulae, mostly directed against disease-causing demons. The DSS Psalms collection in particular (11Q5) has “four songs for the charming of demons with music.” People who fell under the influence of false prophets and mediums were thought to also require the exorcism of possessing evil spirits (the false prophets and mediums themselves were subject to death, a sure cure for most possessions; see Zechariah 13).
www.myjewishlearning.com...

If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.

If the Rabbinic orders which existed at the time the gospel was written, are seen as the next step of, (children of) Pharisees, then I don't think they judged the Pharisees very harshly. I certainly don't think they were considered to have committed an unforgiveable sin by the Rabbis.

And if a Pharisee or Rabbi who rejects Jesus as "Son of David" casts out demons, then what?

Demon hunting can get out of hand. See the quote above about the DSS community. If a healer who had a familiar good demon healed some one of disease, that healer would then be killed for his efforts. And then the healed person(victim) would then be exorcised.

43But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passes through waterless places, seeking rest, and doesn't find it. 44Then he says, 'I will return into my house from which I came out,' and when he has come back, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45Then he goes, and takes with himself seven other spirits more evil than he is, and they enter in and dwell there. The last state of that man becomes worse than the first. Even so will it be also to this evil generation."

ἀκάθαρτον (unclean) πνεῦμα (pneuma) isn't the same word usage as demon, this saying maybe not connected to the first story.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: DISRAELI

I always looked at it as they were in the presence of the Lord and attributed His works to the devil. Clearly they knew God was master of the demonic kingdom, and still said it was Satan because they refused to humble themselves and admit He was the Messiah.

I also looked at it as the "taking the Lord's name in vain" not so much as swearing, using God's name but as purporting to be devout (taking God's name) but at heart, being untrue to it.

Essentially saying you are a Christian, Priest or Rabbai but not properly representing God.

edit: Double post

originally posted by: intrptr

You said the one unforgivable sin... not forgiving... meaning what exactly...

I'll wait.

Two cents;on a personal level, it can be looked at as the challenge of trying to find the kingdom of heaven while remaining ignorant of the role the Holy Spirit plays in developing one's peace of mind.I feel the sin lies not as much in the mistakes of someone's past, but rather an ongoing rejection of the spirit in the present...

a reply to: DISRAELI

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Then he went on to give a solemn warning;
“Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (vv31-32).

There’s a good reason why that verse states there is no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit…

Jesus says in John 8 that he speaks for 2 witnesses, which is himself and the Father…In John 14 it can be discerned that the Holy Spirit is both the Father and Son working in unison…IMO

My point is that if you blaspheme the Son of Man i.e. The Son, the Father will forgive, and if you blaspheme the Father, the Son will forgive you, but there can be no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, because it’s both the Father and Sons Spirit working together…


Peace


- JC

a reply to: chr0naut

Or rabbi is Jewish. Like exclusively Jewish. You probably knew that already..

originally posted by: breakingbs
a reply to: chr0naut

Or rabbi is Jewish. Like exclusively Jewish. You probably knew that already..

Yes but there are Messianic Jews who believe in Jesus, the Spirit and the Father.

Rabbai means 'teacher'.

And taking Gods name in vain is the third of the ten commandments according to the Jewish Talmud (the second by the Catholic catechism).

I know about the messianic Jews, and that rabbi means "teacher." Thx. Not sure why you insinuated taking God's name in vain. Didn't do that here. Rabbi.

The meaning of "blaspheming the Holy Spirit is this:

If you credit the work of the Holy Spirit to the Evil One (whatever his name), you have blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

It's very much like thinking that an angel of light is Satan. I disagree with Paul that Satan takes this appearance and the Holy Spirit IS light, the angel of light is FROM the Holy Spirit. God promised not to tempt us beyond our ability to resist and an angel of light being actually "Satan" violates that principle. Even if all you have to do is ask the spirit if Jesus is Messiah. Then Satan is not going to use a method of deception so easily overcome even IF he was allowed to. He isn't.

Basically you are being given a revelation from Jesus that the Highest God is the Holy Spirit. Having a lone characteristic such as being unblasphemable with the guilty party having no hope of forgiveness gives the Spirit one up on God the Father.

And it is a serious statement with no alternative meaning. A sin exists for which you will not be forgiven. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit by crediting his/her Work to Evil is that sin.


No doubt about it the Holy Spirit is The Most High.

I am not calling it blasphemy, but I would caution against calling the Holy Spirit a ghost.

A ghost is a dead person's spirit trapped in the earthly realm.


The Holy Spirit was never a person, is not dead and therefore not a ghost.

A powerful entity should be shown more respect than thinking that it is so innocent to insult by calling a ghost.

It's the Holy Spirit. If you say ghost you are talking about something else whether you mean it or not.

originally posted by: breakingbs
I know about the messianic Jews, and that rabbi means "teacher." Thx. Not sure why you insinuated taking God's name in vain. Didn't do that here. Rabbi.

No I was referring back to the idea that misrepresenting God, pretending to stand for Him (and therefore taking His name upon yourself in vain), suggesting that this is the the unforgiveable sin.