Revelation 17...???

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

I'm sorry you feel that way.

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Originally posted by bobs_uruncle
And there's the money shot. Predestined, no free will, we are riders in meat puppet suits, therefore there can be no sin as we have no control. We simply observe as we play out our characters in this divine comedy.

Cheers - Dave

But didn’t Jesus say “Seek the truth” and “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect”…and didn’t he also say “…the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.”…and didn’t Jesus also call sinners to repentance…?

They all seem like proactive statements to me; things to be followed…paths to be walked etc…


How then can you say there is “no sin”, and “no freewill”…?


- JC

Easy, everything is preordained / predetermined therefore we no control. No control means we're not responsible, ergo no sin because we have no free will. This isn't rocket science, this is simplistic logic.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: Aedaeum
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Don't feel sorry for me, I'm not deluded nor are my opinions coloured by anything but logic and facts. But if it's your character's role to type that, that's OK too ;-)

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: DISRAELI

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Similarly the Beast could exploit the support of a religious body without necessarily believing what they taught, and might later decide to destroy the same religious body without necessarily hating what they taught.

No; I'm’ sorry, you didn’t understanding what I wrote or my point…

My response which I’ll put again in this post, was not about whether the beast could exploit the support of a religious system, of course he could do that. It wasn't even about whether he could take advantage of a system without believing in it himself, because I’m fully aware that he (the Beast) could do that too. And it also wasn’t about whether he could destroy the religious body without hating what they taught…I’m aware he could do that as well.

My Reply was about the specifics, the whys, the how's, and why would he get rid of something that he either believed in or didn’t believe in. And what type of religious system could it possible be etc…???

First here’s your original post that I was responding to below…I've highlighted the key parts…

Originally posted by DISRAELI
So the Beast is the political power, and the Harlot is some kind of religious power (NOT necessarily one that is visible today).

It would appear that the political power exploits the religious power, and is therefore willing to support it, without actually believing in it.

And my original response…below…

Originally posted by Joecroft
If this Political/Beast power doesn’t believe in it, wouldn’t that suggest that it’s clearly not some kind of Religion like Satanism, Paganism, are any other religion that most Christians see as Satanic…otherwise the Beast would not be against it at all…IMO

Just to reiterate…you did state above in your original post that the beast could be willing to support something without actually believing in it…which is correct…IMO

My response though was about the why and the specifics involved.

For example, if the beast didn’t believe in Christianity he would naturally try to get rid of it…problem is, the Harlot is described as something bad, so that doesn’t appear to fit. On the flip side, if the Harlot is something like Satanism, then why would the beast try to get rid of it in first place…?

There’s clearly only one answer…IMO

And can you please think before posting a response…

I’m pretty sure you just reply instantly, within about 5 to 10 mins, on most occasions, without really giving it any deep thought…


- JC

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Originally posted by bobs_uruncle
Easy, everything is preordained / predetermined therefore we no control. No control means we're not responsible, ergo no sin because we have no free will. This isn't rocket science, this is simplistic logic.

Cheers - Dave

So I take you don’t believe in Jesus…?…what Christian denominational belief is this lol…?

So no free will, no sin and bobs ur Uncle…everything will turn out all right in the end, type philosophy…lol

“There is no fate but what we make”


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

One of the items that Chris White brings up about the whore that rides the beast is the colour blue .All of the colours and jewels and stones associated with (Judaism) also had the colour blue to remind them of God's commandments .The woman riding the beast is the end time city of Jerusalem ie spiritually Sodom and Egypt or Babylon . The lack of blue seems to separate them out and away from the God that brought them out of Egypt .

This Jewish influence at present is a big deal but it may become less so in the future .....just thinking here ....peace

a reply to: DISRAELI

Our replies in order, just for clarity…

Originally posted by DISRAELI
So the Beast is the political power, and the Harlot is some kind of religious
power (NOT necessarily one that is visible today).

Originally posted by Joecroft
Again I agree, the Harlot is definitely some type of religious
Power…IMO

But…

“Not necessarily one that is visible today”…How so…How is the Harlot not visible today according to scripture…?

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Where does scripture say that these entities will be continuously present for the whole of history? Or where does scripture say that "today" is the time when all the prophecies are being fulfilled?

If the Harlot represents some religious movement, or umbrella body for religious movements, which does not even come into existence until some future century, there is no reason why we should expect it to be visible today.

Remember, the Harlot rests on the support of the Beast. If the Beast is a political power dominating the world and persecuting the faithful church, then the Beast is not visible today either. The Harlot would have nothing to rest on.

Revelation 17:6
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

I’m pretty sure that the “blood of the saints” and the “martyrs of Jesus” are all referring to past events, Also, most countries have gotten rid of their monarchy…There were more Kings belonging to many different nations in the past, than there are today…

So for me it’s a prophecy about future events but events that have partly already happened and are already in place…Future prophecies can incorporate “part events” that have already happened…


- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
For example, if the beast didn’t believe in Christianity he would naturally try to get rid of it…problem is, the Harlot is described as something bad, so that doesn’t appear to fit. On the flip side, if the Harlot is something like Satanism, then why would the beast try to get rid of it in first place…?

I think we need to distinguish more clearly between the belief system itself and the religious structure in which it is embodied.
So my original point meant that the Beast would be supporting the religious structure without necessarily swallowing the belief system.
That distinction is the key to sorting out your good/bad paradox. The religious structure is supporting the Beast, so you might want to call that "bad". Meanwhile the belief system could be bad, or it could be mostly good but tinkered with to meet the aims of supporting the Beast. We could have said that about the belief system of the German church supporting the Nazi's. That might be how it works.

Your puzzlement arises because you are assuming that the later attack is directed at the belief system. That is why you ask "Why get rid of a bad one, why support a good one in the first place?"
What I am saying is that the attack is directed at the religious structure, the religion as a semi-political power. The goodness or badness of the belief system would not be relevant either way.
The real question is why the power-structure called the Beast would want to destroy the religious power-structure called the Harlot. The most obvious possibility to me, as an old student of history, is that the Beast might have decided that the other power-structure was becoming a rival instead of a support.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Originally posted by Joecroft
So GOD wants us to give OUR KINGDOM over to the BEAST!!!…and it’s all part of His master plan…hmmmm…

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Check the context of that verse. "They" means the ten kings, repeating what John has already said in v13.

As for God putting things into their hearts, this is the same kind of issue as God "hardening the heart of Pharaoh".

I've considered the context thanks…

Revelation 17:17
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The verse specifically states… “For God… hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will.” And you can repeat that sentence again for the next part…

“For God hath put in their hearts to agree…and give their Kingdom unto the beast…”

That verse (Rev 17:17) speaks for itself…no context is even required…

God is clearly saying that we are supposed to agree to give our Kingdom away to the beast…for the apparent good of everyone…because it’s Gods will…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft


Hey Joe, normally in prophetic language a religion is spoken of as a woman, a whore or prostitute is a false religion or worship practice. Oftentimes idolatry is spoken of as harlotry or fornication spiritually.

originally posted by: Joecroft
I've considered the context thanks…

Not really, because the context of a statement is more than the immediate verse. You persist in ignoring the words of v16.
"The ten horns which you saw... will hate the harlot" etc.
This is the clue that "they" in v17 refers to the ten horns, i.e. the ten kings.
That is why it is a mistake to change the "they" of v17 into "we". We are not the ten kings.
So this verse says nothing at all about us "giving our kingdom" to the Beast.
It is repeating the information of v13, that the ten kings have been subordinating themselves to his authority.

That verse (Rev 17:17) speaks for itself…no context is even required…

v17 is actually the second half of the sentence which begins in v16.
Ignoring the context is a fundamentally false way to approach the interpretation of the Bible. It is almost guaranteed to prevent any genuine understanding of what the Bible is trying to say.

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

That's false, everything isn't preordained. We see it's not God's will for any to perish, Jesus cursed Jerusalem with spiritual blindness because they didn't know they day He would visit and be presented as the Messiah even though Daniel predicted it to the day. The Bible is FULL of people going against the will of God. Yes, God is sovereign, absolutely, however God also made man in His image AND likeness, and God gave man sovereign will to choose his/her destiny.

Joshua 24:15

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Hey Joe, normally in prophetic language a religion is spoken of as a woman, a whore or prostitute is a false religion or worship practice. Oftentimes idolatry is spoken of as harlotry or fornication spiritually.

I think the majority of posters on this thread are in agreement that the Woman/Whore represents some kind of Religion…as I do myself…

But a false Religion equates to something evil…and if it’s evil why does the beast and Kings/Horns rise up against it…?


- JC

a reply to: DISRAELI

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Ignoring the context is a fundamentally false way to approach the interpretation of the Bible. It is almost guaranteed to prevent any genuine understanding of what the Bible is trying to say.

But it doesn’t matter about the Context, God is stating that they, the Kings and/or the people or both; are to give their Kingdom to the Beast because God wills it…

Originally posted by DISRAELI
You persist in ignoring the words of v16.

I'm’ not ignoring it all…I’ve factored it in…

Originally posted by DISRAELI
"The ten horns which you saw... will hate the harlot" etc.
This is the clue that "they" in v17 refers to the ten horns, i.e. the ten kings. That is why it is a mistake to change the "they" of v17 into "we". We are not the ten kings.

But the Kings are already a part of the beast system, so how can they give their Kingdom to the beast when they’re already a part of it…???

Also, the kings rule the nations, so ultimately overall, it is “WE” “we the people”…who are giving our self to the beast system…

The Harlot is deceiving Kings but also the people and the nations. It’s people and the nations that are the “us” and the “we”…


- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
But the Kings are already a part of the beast system, so how can they give their Kingdom to the beast when they’re already a part of it…???

They are continuing to do it. The statement in v17 is not a new event, but a repetition of the information given in v13.

Also, the kings rule the nations, so ultimately overall, it is “WE” “we the people”…who are giving our self to the beast system…

You speak for yourself. I hope to be amongst those who are NOT giving themselves to the Beast system. So I completely repudiate that "We".

a reply to: Joecroft

I think you read Revelation 17 wrong. The whore rides the beast empire, the 8th kingdom. Which is comprised of 10 nations, it's a caliphate. The 8th kingdom is the revived eastern leg of the Roman Empire. It's the revival of the Ottoman Empire. The antichrist receives his power from the 10 nations in 1 hour, and he himself subdues 3 of those 10, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Originally posted by DISRAELI
They are continuing to do it. The statement in v17 is not a new event, but a repetition of the information given in v13.

But can you just answer the question…instead of constantly deflecting the issue…

Why is it Gods will that they the Kings (only) if you prefer, (although I still contend that Kings ultimately drag the nations and people along with them) are to give their Kingdom to the Beast…?

Originally posted by DISRAELI
You speak for yourself. I hope to be amongst those who are NOT giving themselves to the Beast system. So I completely repudiate that "We".

If you want to talk about correct context, then you’re just looking at verse 16 and saying it’s just “they” the Kings…

When we know from the complete context, that the Beast is using the Harlot to deceive the Nations, the People, and the Kings…they are all tied together…they are all one mind as verse 13 puts it…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Joe, check this out, it will help a ton bro:


Who is The Beast?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Uhhhhhhhhh . . .

However . . . the Anti-Christ is the global leader of the whole of the planet in the one world government and one world religion.

. . . not just the revised Ottoman empire.

a reply to: BO XIAN

The Bible doesn't say global, in fact several nations will oppose the AC. He rises up out of the great sea, that's the Mediterranean Sea.