Revelation 17...???

a reply to: BO XIAN

God is not going to come out of the clouds to kill evil doers, that is fantasy and only a symbolic story that represents an inner process.

God coming from the clouds is him coming from the cloud of confusion within someones mind and making himself visible to the observer. God is light, you see light right now but the confusion that clouds your judgement doesn't allow you to see it for what it is.

I've cleared the cloud of confusion and see God everywhere and within everything. Paul says that in time God will be all in all, he also says to reject the patterns of the world and to renew your mind. When you renew your mind then you come out of the cloud and you see God as being all in all, within everything including yourself.

The bible is an esoteric piece of literature. Jesus is the Word of God, the bible is the Word of God, Jesus said he speaks in parables, the bible speaks in parables. The stories in the bible are parables that are meant to lead people to the truth within themselves but the whore (religion) and the beast (political figures) have distorted its true intentions into that of a literal history book with the threat of death and hell for those who see it any differently.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: BO XIAN

God is not going to come out of the clouds to kill evil doers, that is fantasy and only a symbolic story that represents an inner process.

I gather you haven't read the Old Testament.

--The Red Sea crossing
--Elijah and the prophets of Baal
--Mt Sinai

Such an assertion, imho, smacks of a gross lack of knowledge of and understanding of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob . . . particularly of His Character and His Ways.

God coming from the clouds is him coming from the cloud of confusion within someones mind and making himself visible to the observer. God is light, you see light right now but the confusion that clouds your judgement doesn't allow you to see it for what it is.

What unmitigated nonsense. Evidently you think that God Almighty is incapable of saying what He means and meaning what He says.

. . .

The bible is an esoteric piece of literature. Jesus is the Word of God, the bible is the Word of God, Jesus said he speaks in parables, the bible speaks in parables. The stories in the bible are parables that are meant to lead people to the truth within themselves but the whore (religion) and the beast (political figures) have distorted its true intentions into that of a literal history book with the threat of death and hell for those who see it any differently.

I don't know where your anti-Supernatural slant on God and His Word arose from--besides the pit--but I suggest you take it back and get a refund. It is almost too hideous a perspective for me to bother my eyes with.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I don't think it helps understanding a bit to confuse the literal city of Babylon with Jerusalem.

Both are in prophecy. God does NOT conflate them.

ABSOLUTELY INDEED. Bears repeating.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
In the last two chapters, pain and sin and death have come to an end. God's people are living in the presence of God.

You cannot say [remotely accurately] that these things have taken place.

If you can convince yourself that "mourning and tears and pain have passed away", then you are in denial. You have stopped looking at the world around you.

I must repeat, the last two chapters of Revelation have clearly not been fulfilled.

.
After 54 years of studying Bible prophecy . . . it shocks me to see how utterly thick-headed, uninformed, poorly taught and/or terminally clueless so many are about the basics of Bible prophecy and the END TIMES. Shocking.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Actually, I don't have much tolerance for any portion of Preterism.

imho . . . any part or whole is a delusion from the pit of hell.

a reply to: BO XIAN

The Old Testament miracles and New Testament miracles are euphemisms for spiritual truths, they didn't literally happen.

Why did God only choose to perform miracles of such large scales only before global communication was established? Ever since the technological revolution and instant communication has been in place God has gone completely silent with his intervention. Why is that? Probably because the stories in the bible are symbolic instead of literal.

It was much easier to pass these stories off as literal in a time where communication was so slow and the people were much more superstitious than today. Would you be so quick to believe someone who said they parted a sea if there was no corroborating evidence in today's world? I would hope not.

If you believe the stories are literal then you are doing them a disservice. Jesus spoke in parables just as the bible does with its stories, both are the Word of God right?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: BO XIAN
The Old Testament miracles and New Testament miracles are euphemisms for spiritual truths, they didn't literally happen.

I see we have insufficient shared definitions for a meaningful dialogue.

The above assertion of yours is as off the wall inaccurate, wrong, blasphemous, uninformed, unread, unresearched, imperceptive, poorly taught, . . . absurd-to-the-max . . . as any I've read in all my 11 years on ATS.

However, if you have enough years left, you WILL SEE . . . as will all on the planet . . .

Almighty God Yehovah demonstrating HIS power and glory in the skies and on earth prior to Armageddon. And at Armageddon, He will shred satan and satan's fallen angels wholesale.

Yehovah is not about to allow satan to have the only dramatic demonstrations of the END TIMES.

Thankfully, Yehovah is a good General and has kept such cards close to His chest. The enemy will be more than a little surprised.

As . . . evidently will you and all those believing such hideous lies from hell.

It's sad that you seem to have no clue at all into the Character and Ways of Yehovah.

a reply to: BO XIAN

I could easily say the same about your faith. The only difference between my beliefs and yours is that yours have been one of the main driving forces behind Western culture for thousands of years now, it hasn't painted a very pretty picture has it?

You waiting for someone to come fix the world for you is only allowing those in power to do what they please. That's how they want the masses, complacent, that's the biggest benefactor to their plans. The bible is of the world, it is a product of the world and is a tool of deception just like any other religious book.

Your book is no different than those other books you seem to think are from Satan.

The book of Revelation is not predictions about past present or future historical events.It is just as the first verse says.

The unveiling( the definition of the word apocalypse) of Yahoshua(which means Yahweh is deliverance/salvation in Hebrew) christ( anointing..mashiach..messiah) which is the act of power of the creator God…. is written in signs(metaphor,allegory).

John didn’t know what he was writing about.He even states so many times when he asks what does this mean and still doesn’t get a literal answer because it is all a metaphor allegory.That should be the most verifiable piece of evidence this isn’t the“religious fantasy” Christianity has concocted with multitude of interpretations which all of them are sensationalized fear mongering and none of them agreeing.The book of Revelation is more like a poet or authors dream of something that has or is happening to him.If the disciple John is the writer that would follow in line since he experienced an extraordinary life.

In other words it is John's experience perceived through the mind of an artist from dreams or epiphanies not some old demented person on mushrooms or any of the cockeyed theories.The main theme of all of Yahoshua’s parables he told to the disciples(and explained) was about religion and it’s detrimental effect.John experienced the “overcoming” and receiving forgiveness(which is translated from the Greek word aphesis and means freed from bondage).

Many of the key elements such as the beast are logical if perceived in the light of reason instead of religious rhetoric fear mongering.The beast is what rules mankinds life because it is human nature.The amalgamation of a persons experiences form their belief through faith of their personal Belief System religion.In others words at the core of human nature(the beast) is religion and everyone's formation of that their religion is different with no 2 people believing and experiencing the same thing.Everyone has a religion even though the majority of mankinds religion foundation is a herd religion like Christianity(the largest percentage currently at over 2 billion roughly 1/3 of all of mankind)

Th Great Whore Queen is the rulership of religion over mankind.The ten horns are the 10 commandments that the religious hierarchy used to enslave it’s believers through the great whores authority and has made an idol of morality and ethics and perverted them to suit an agenda.In other words there is no definitive person the Great whore or the beast etc etc…it is ALL a metaphor allegory with ZERO literal historical events past present or future

The book of Revelation has one purpose(as does all the scriptures) it is a testimony that testifies of Yahoshua(the creator God is deliverance/salvation) the GOOD news not the bad news.It is not a book of fear except to those that are fearful and project their fear to others.That is why John was told to write:

“For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book”

…and of course that is exactly what Christianity has done.Instead of being forgiven of their religion they have become more bound in it and built the walls of their castle prison so high they cannot see out and believe they are already set free BECAUSE of their religious belief.However that house is built upon sand and it will fall and crush it’s occupants.

However even for Christians there is forgiveness at the resurrection from physical death when they are cast into the lake of fire (the 2nd death) to have their religion destroyed.However they will suffer great loss in this life because they have believed in a false God of their religion.

a reply to: BO XIAN

I also find it troubling that you automatically get defensive and start implying I work for Satan and hell. If that's not a sign of insecurity then I don't know what is. I'm not saying anything of the sort to you so why must you do it to me?

If you have no case then simply stop posting, no need to passive aggressively insult me and imply I work for evil.

a reply to: windword

Originally posted by windword
Well, I think that the "woman" is dominating the Beast, because she's riding it. That's why the beast and horns "hate" her.

So she’s just being used as a means to an end…Why do they hate her though, seemed like they had a good thing going back there…you know, deceiving the nations, evil reigning and so forth…

Originally posted by windword
Also, I think the woman represents the "anti-bride of Christ"; The Anti-Church.

Excellent windword…I believe the same, in that it represents an anti/false belief system…

Originally posted by windword
Revelation 17:17 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and
to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall
be fulfilled.

Disclaimer: BTW, It's all God's will, predestined and part of his perfect plan.

So GOD wants us to give OUR KINGDOM over to the BEAST!!!…and it’s all part of His master plan…hmmmm…

Either God is extremely wise beyond imagination and reason, or The Devil/Beast has fooled us ALL!!!…


- JC

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Originally posted by bobs_uruncle
And there's the money shot. Predestined, no free will, we are riders in meat puppet suits, therefore there can be no sin as we have no control. We simply observe as we play out our characters in this divine comedy.

Cheers - Dave

But didn’t Jesus say “Seek the truth” and “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect”…and didn’t he also say “…the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.”…and didn’t Jesus also call sinners to repentance…?

They all seem like proactive statements to me; things to be followed…paths to be walked etc…


How then can you say there is “no sin”, and “no freewill”…?


- JC

a reply to: DISRAELI

Thanks for your detailed response.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Anyway, the Beast must be a political entity (by comparison with the "beasts from the sea" in Daniel ch7). The Harlot evidently lives in some sort of relationship with that.

I agree to some extent…The Beast is clearly some type of controlling element that is using a system (The Harlot) to control people somehow…

Originally posted by DISRAELI
It would appear that the political power exploits the religious power, and is
therefore willing to support it, without actually believing in it.

If this Political/Beast power doesn’t believe in it, wouldn’t that suggest that it’s clearly not some kind of Religion like Satanism, Paganism, or any other religion that most Christians see as Satanic…otherwise the Beast would not be against it at all…IMO

Originally posted by DISRAELI
So the Beast is the political power, and the Harlot is some kind of religious
power (NOT necessarily one that is visible today).

Again I agree, the Harlot is definitely some type of religious Power…IMO

But…

“Not necessarily one that is visible today”…How so…How is the Harlot not visible today according to scripture…?


- JC

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Yes, she represents the church and its anti-Christ doctrine. The beast is the
sacrificial Jesus, the one who was wounded but healed and who the world follows in wonder.

Interesting theory …but what about this verse below…

Revelation 13:14
…It ordered them to set up an image in honour of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.

Jesus was pierced by a spear…according the Gospel accounts…maybe someone made a mistake in the accounts…Although I guess the word “sword” could be meant in a more general sense…perhaps…”live by the sword, die by the sword” being a good example…

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The church rides on the back of Jesus which is why it is so influential/The mystery on her forehead is the profound mystery of the church that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 5.

How and in what way are you linking the 2 mysteries together…?

I guess Paul does link Christ with the church and also calls the church a “her”…but wasn’t all that just symbolic linkage with marriage between a man and a woman; with Christ representing the Man and the Church representing the woman and his bride etc…as is mentioned throughout Ephesians 5…?


- JC

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

WRONG TO THE MAX.

Authentic Christians for centuries have done the lion's share of education, hospitals, mercy missions etc. etc. etc.

That is a rich heritage I'm very thankful for.

Your fantasized constructions on reality are an intellectual embarrassment as well as foundationally farcical.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I don't know who you work for. I don't know diddly about you other than what you post.

I just know where such ideas come from originally.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

I liked Chris W's teaching sufficiently to decide I don't need to bother pontificating on Rev 17 myself at this time.

Thanks.

originally posted by: Joecroft
If this Political/Beast power doesn’t believe in it, wouldn’t that suggest that it’s clearly not some kind of Religion like Satanism, Paganism, or any other religion that most Christians see as Satanic…otherwise the Beast would not be against it at all…IMO

No, that isn't what I mean. I used the Hitler example because I've previously had to study that period of church history. It is safe to say that Hitler did not believe in the teachings of Christ- or at least not the turn-the-other-cheek aspects of his teaching. And yet that did not prevent him from allowing his supporters in the German church to re-organise it as a body more under Nazi control, whose teachers would proclaim the need for German Christians to support the state as a patriotic duty. He would also make speeches himself about the central place of the church in the German nation (it does not follow that he believed what he was saying). If he had turned against the church later (the occasion never arose), it would have been for a different set of political reasons.
Similarly the Beast could exploit the support of a religious body without necessarily believing what they taught, and might later decide to destroy the same religious body without necessarily hating what they taught.

“Not necessarily one that is visible today”…How so…How is the Harlot not visible today according to scripture…?

Where does scripture say that these entities will be continuously present for the whole of history? Or where does scripture say that "today" is the time when all the prophecies are being fulfilled?
If the Harlot represents some religious movement, or umbrella body for religious movements, which does not even come into existence until some future century, there is no reason why we should expect it to be visible today.
Remember, the Harlot rests on the support of the Beast. If the Beast is a political power dominating the world and persecuting the faithful church, then the Beast is not visible today either. The Harlot would have nothing to rest on.

originally posted by: Joecroft
Revelation 17:17 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and
to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall
be fulfilled.
So GOD wants us to give OUR KINGDOM over to the BEAST!!!…and it’s all part of His master plan…hmmmm…

Check the context of that verse. "They" means the ten kings, repeating what John has already said in v13.
As for God putting things into their hearts, this is the same kind of issue as God "hardening the heart of Pharaoh".
I think this is making the point that even the conscious enemies of God can do no more than he allows them to.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Stop being so antagonistic my friend, I'm only giving you my opinion. Just as you know where my beliefs come from I know where yours come from as well. It's a two way street. I'm not trying to convince you of anything so I don't know why you are so defensive. Saying "WRONG TO THE MAX" in all caps does not make you right.

If you believe that the bible is the word of God and infallible then you must also admit that you are using the same logic that Muslims and Hindus use for their respective books. Why are they wrong in your opinion? If you argue against their reasoning then you are also arguing against your own.

This will be my last reply to you because I see you are veering off into zealous anger. Have a good day.