SCOTUS Strikes Down Texas Abortion Ban

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: Talorc

Have you seen how mammals of even the lowest order react to their offspring being killed? Hint: it really upsets them.

Sometimes sure. Other times everything from Dogs to Primates have been known to kill and sometimes eat their young. So your argument sort of falls apart when you include them too.

In other words, science says the instinct to nurture is not innate, but learned.

Also, do you realize that this statement is a logical contradiction? An instinct, by definition, cannot be learned. An instinct is by definition innate.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Talorc

Nope, just common sense enough to know that getting an abortion is emotionally easier to do than actually killing a baby yourself.

What are you going on about? Abortion isn't the same as murdering a baby! An acorn isn't an oak tree and a embryo isn't a baby. You sound as out of touch as the 1st century literature that informs you on woman's issues! Ironic for you though, 1st century scholars didn't consider a fetus a person either.

I don't consider a fetus a person. In fact, I don't consider children to have full personhood.

The axis on which the argument rests is potential. The potential to become a human being, which is the same in either case.

We are not omniscient and cannot judge future outcomes in the case of unborn children, therefore any decision to snuff that potential is a poor one.

When in doubt, just let nature take its course. Nature is right far more often than we are.

a reply to: Talorc
Woah woah woah....don't put words in my mouth. Carewemust was asking about studies into the long term effects of abortion- physically and emotionally. In the long term the vast majority of women remain confident in their decision and are physically fine.

Some regret it. Some have physical problems because of it (as with any medical procedure). But MOST still feel they did the right thing for themselves at that point in their lives given the circumstances involved and are physically unharmed by it.

I've known females who have had abortions. It was NEVER flippant or easy or FUN. None of them were drunken sluts. Some did it with the support of their boyfriends, some did it BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF SUPPORT or even violence/threat of violence/threat of abandonment/threat of stalking and never ending harassment that they faced if they kept it. Some really would have wanted to keep it, but knew that it just wasn't feasible. They were barely able to take care of themselves and had no support system for child care or taking care of basic needs should they bring a full fledged baby into the world. Their heart was broken by the decision, but it would have been MORE broken to just have it and give it away.

Nobody is celebrating abortion. But when there's millions- if not billions- in unpaid child support, virtually no punishment for rape or domestic violence, no assistance in place for women who decide to keep their accidental babies, virtually no help with child care while the mother goes to school or work.....well then, women really shouldn't be shamed for being forced to make such a decision. They shouldn't be called murderers or whores or assumed that they should have 'kept their legs closed' while men totally skate on their responsibilities.

originally posted by: Talorc
When in doubt, just let nature take its course. Nature is right far more often than we are.

I had one friend who was date raped. Even if she had bothered to report it, it NEVER would have been prosecuted because it would have boiled down to he said/she said. She did not have the means to raise a baby by herself, nor did she have any desire to bear the offspring of a rapist.

I had one friend who was dating a guy for 8 months and thought everything was going fine. Birth control failed and the minute she told him he flipped. Made it clear he was going to be as difficult as possible about doing his share. She was going to give it up for adoption, but he made it clear he would block that too and flat out told her he intended to stalk her. Facing 18 years of stress and harassment, she was backed into a corner.

I had one friend, birth control failed. She had that baby. They put her on stronger birth control, that failed. Had THAT baby. Now living in the ghetto with 2 kids under the age of 3 in her early 20s, birth control failed AGAIN. Had an abortion and they FINALLY agreed to tie her tubes, which is what she asked for after the first one.

I have one friend, birth control failed once, second guy had a vasectomy (?). Now she's got a 7 year old and a 10 year old. The 10 year old has a brain tumor and seizures all his life which makes it impossible for her to work full time. NOT ONE DIME OF CHILD SUPPORT. She's been living in destitution since her oldest was born and still stuck there.

Yeah.....just let nature take it's course. Cuz nature punishes rapists and abusive psychos. Cuz nature pays the bills.

a reply to: Talorc

We are not omniscient and cannot judge future outcomes in the case of unborn children, therefore any decision to snuff that potential is a poor one.

We are autonomous and not only can, but should make these decisions on our own. To place a greater priority on unknown "potential" rather than what is at hand is a not always the wisest choice.

Nature is right far more often than we are.

Nature is neither right nor wrong, it just is. Measles are natural, yet we vaccinate ourselves to protect us against the virus' natural effects. We change, dominate and outwit nature all the time, moving mountains and creating power by damming and redirecting rivers. Nature is ours to subdue.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

Thanks. Right On Point. Excellent post.

From one who knows.

a reply to: Talorc

I don't think many woman have abortions without thinking it through. Whether it's an abortion or miscarriage, losing an unborn child is probably not as easy as you imagine it to be.

I'm pretty sure we never agreed that people are human trash either. Those are your words, not mine. I tend to have a bit more compassion for others than that.

You can boil my argument down to whatever you like and call it whatever you want but the fact remains that I've seen first hand what bad parenting does to a kid and not everyone is suited to raise a child, that's just a fact.

a reply to: Talorc

show me someplace in history where caring for the poor unwanted children when the population got out of control that is more humane than today?

compared to what we have now, it was far more inhumane! only the most incompetent of mothers are forced to give up their children, and when that happens, they are put in conditions far different than those workhouse conditions, and far more than 90% of them die while growing up! no women is barred from having children, or force to be sterilized or into abortions it is their choice!
for the most part any child born today, regardless of the circumstances of their birth are far better off than the children were in history! but, I highly doubt if we could do this if it wasn't for the access to birth control and abortion.

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
a reply to: Talorc


Their heart was broken by the decision, but it would have been MORE broken to just have it and give it away.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

The best decision is to have the baby and give it away. Perhaps emotionally harder at first, but morally it's the right decision to make. Your emotions are transient and ultimately, women's emotions don't matter where this is concerned. Some things are more important than your feelings, which many people can't seem to realize.

So, assuming that the actual childbirth is not an issue, and assuming that the pregnancy is not an issue, these women choose to abort the child rather than have it and give away because.... they can't stomach the idea of not seeing their child and having it raised by someone else?

originally posted by: Talorc

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
a reply to: Talorc


Their heart was broken by the decision, but it would have been MORE broken to just have it and give it away.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

The best decision is to have the baby and give it away.

"Potluck Baby"? Not something I'd ever do to a child.

Oh Yay! I can say "I did my part" - - carried a fetus to term. I'm done.

a reply to: Talorc

So as a Male, just what makes you think you're opinion on this is more valid than women who actually have to deal with having a baby in the first place???

You're arguing and making decisions about something you'll never have to personally go through. That alone is enough to stop listening but the fact that you're so dismissive about what actual women have to say about this topic makes it almost impossible to take you serious.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Talorc

We are autonomous and not only can, but should make these decisions on our own.

Of course we should make the decision on our own. And as with most decisions, one choice is usually better than the others.

Nature is neither right nor wrong, it just is. Measles are natural, yet we vaccinate ourselves to protect us against the virus' natural effects. We change, dominate and outwit nature all the time, moving mountains and creating power by damming and redirecting rivers.

Well, for example, bacteria are more resistant to our antibiotics than ever before. Believing that we "dominate nature" is very much proof that we don't. That's the chest beating of an ape who just pulled termites out of the ground with a stick. I'm sure he also believes he dominates nature.

a reply to: Talorc

Of course we should make the decision on our own. And as with most decisions, one choice is usually better than the others.

Says who? You? There are always two sides to any issue.

Well, for example, bacteria are more resistant to our antibiotics than ever before. Believing that we "dominate nature" is very much proof that we don't. That's the chest beating of an ape who just pulled termites out of the ground with a stick. I'm sure he also believes he dominates nature.

I never said that the battle has been won, but it's our destiny to continue to subdue and dominate nature.



Picking termites from a stick my arse!

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: Talorc

So as a Male, just what makes you think you're opinion on this is more valid than women who actually have to deal with having a baby in the first place???

You're arguing and making decisions about something you'll never have to personally go through. That alone is enough to stop listening but the fact that you're so dismissive about what actual women have to say about this topic makes it almost impossible to take you serious.

That's just not how reality works. If people could only make arguments based on personal connections, such as being a woman and/or having an abortion, we could never come to conclusions about anything. Why are you arguing the topic then? Shouldn't you and I both leave this thread so that only the women can discuss it?

It's almost impossible to take you seriously, you're so dismissive of the women who don't believe in abortion.

I don't believe my opinion is more valid, I just believe that morality and logic are superior to feelings and opinions.

a reply to: Talorc

Of course we should make the decision on our own. And as with most decisions, one choice is usually better than the others.

and the best decisions take into consideration the present circumstances.
no one can say that not aborting the baby is the wrong choice in all circumstances, can they??

Why are you guys arguing the SAME crap AGAIN????? This is about the SCOTUS' ruling. I find it interesting with even numbers they were still able to come to a decision. Seems about the only part of the government is actually getting something done.

a reply to: Talorc

I don't believe my opinion is more valid, I just believe that morality and logic are superior to feelings and opinions.

LOL! Oh..okay! Your opinions aren't more valid, they're just morally and logically superior! Gotcha!

originally posted by: Talorc
Why are you arguing the topic then? Shouldn't you and I both leave this thread so that only the women can discuss it?

Maybe we should. But if not we should at least have some humility and admit that is much more their decision than it is ours. That will change once I grow my uterus and carry a child and my tits start producing milk to feed it. But until then I'll have to admit that maybe I'm not exactly in a position to tell them what to do in this area. But that's ok because I respect women enough to be able to do some things on their own without my input.

It's almost impossible to take you seriously, you're so dismissive of the women who don't believe in abortion.

No, I listen to them too and will take a back seat in the conversation when they tell me to also.

But you see, Pro-Choice allows for those women to not have an abortion if they don't want to. It allows for those who do to get one. So IMO, everyone gets to choose which is the most fair way to do it. That stance will not change.

I don't believe my opinion is more valid, I just believe that morality and logic are superior to feelings and opinions.

I'm not sure how much logic you're putting in to your "human Trash" argument and a large part of Morality is based on Feelings and opinions. Morality is Subjective and you're in no position to be making decisions for other people based on your own morality. Your morality is for you. Not everyone believes the same as you do.

originally posted by: Talorc
The best decision is to have the baby and give it away. Perhaps emotionally harder at first, but morally it's the right decision to make. Your emotions are transient and ultimately, women's emotions don't matter where this is concerned. Some things are more important than your feelings, which many people can't seem to realize.

So, assuming that the actual childbirth is not an issue, and assuming that the pregnancy is not an issue, these women choose to abort the child rather than have it and give away because.... they can't stomach the idea of not seeing their child and having it raised by someone else?

As a woman who is currently 9 1/2 months pregnant with her 3rd child, allow me to politely say "EFF YOU"

Just have the baby! Oh yeah??? Women's emotions don't matter?

I am so huge and miserable right now I can't even begin to describe it to you. I had to drag a 2 yo and a 7 yo to the hospital at midnight the other night with Braxton Hicks. The doctor was a dick about me having them with me but childcare was over an hour away and I didn't want to bother anyone unless it was absolutely necessary. I've suffered sciatica, carpal tunnel, nausea, the return of a pelvic injury from the LAST pregnancy, the cost of new clothes, the cost of new shoes, the cost of two back braces cuz the first one made things worse, $50 per week for a chiropractor for MONTHS now that insurance wouldn't cover, not being able to take needed medications because they cause birth defects, the 'safer' alternative of meds having DIABETES as a side effect, migranes....all while dealing with the stress of car trouble-twice, a move, the death of my grandmother, being robbed and having to file a police report...and all with ZERO financial help and MINIMAL physical help, and I DO mean minimal. And this is a normal, healthy pregnancy. It gets even worse.

Now let's talk about the birth: the other 2 were emergency c-sections so I HAVE to have a c-section. That's major abdominal surgery. 6 weeks of recovery time- minimum. I have a little bit of help lined up for the first 2 weeks after that, then I'm on my own. Then I get to start saving my money for the hernia surgery. Ya know, the hernia left over from the first pregnancy- no point in fixing it until I'm done having kids.

All my pregnancies were planned. I took all this on, on purpose, knowing full well what I was getting into. But I guarantee you that if any of the ultrasounds had shown major abnormalities I would have aborted in a heartbeat. I would have far less personal guilt having an abortion than I would going through all this just to have a severely defective baby and turning it over to the state. THAT is MY prerogative. Because MY emotions do matter, because it's my life, my decision and I'm the one that has to live with it.

The next time you're pregnant, you're welcome to carry to term and keep the baby or 'just give it away' whatever YOUR emotions tell you to do.

*end of rant*

Now I get to waddle my 190 lb butt (normally 130) to the pool because my kids won't leave me alone. Good day, sir.

originally posted by: intrepid
Why are you guys arguing the SAME crap AGAIN????? This is about the SCOTUS' ruling. I find it interesting with even numbers they were still able to come to a decision. Seems about the only part of the government is actually getting something done.

Lol! These threads always end up the same! But you're right. I was so happy when I read the end decision. Finally some logic prevailed.

And it gave me a certain sense of schadenfreude, but I LOVED the part where the Notorious RBG spanked down the 'we're just looking out for the safety of women' d-bag and his suggestion that they could just cross state lines to New Mexico. Classic!


I'm in Texas. They won't help me get my kids health insurance, but they'll waste MILLIONS of taxpayer dollars on this nonsense.