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Are you for or against Social Security Reform?

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posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 09:08 AM
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You got my last WAY ABOVE vote for this month, bud. Keep up the good work and sane economic thinking.

Remember, we're working for Freedom -- because Freedom works!




posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 10:56 AM
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NO, I am saying this.

Many people who when they had their kids, COULD AFFORD THEM.
They are now finding out that they can't.
The companies are moving their jobs overseas where they can have what basically is slave labor. Thus cut costs, have bigger profits for their stockholders and CEOS and rest of.the leeches of the US economy.
And, well, the cost of the basic necessities are rising....healthcare increases on a yearly basis, as does food, energy, taxes, and yes even the cost of that over valued degree! And, well, so don't the cost of the upper management of the healthcare industries, the top dogs of the colleges and universities, ect. ect. And, let's not talk about the taxes, shall we. And, well, although these are basic necessities that the government steps in and pays for even when the people can't, their CEO's and uppermanagement's salaries, continue to climb at amazing rates!

And, I am not saying that they should have everything they want, but rather everything they need to keep healthy and fit and able to come into that job tomorrow, next month and next year!!! That means, shelter, food, heat, a car with gas in the gas tank, clothes, shoes on their feet, and well, medicine if they get sick and need it!!! Come on, unless these needs are met, well, they won't be working too long, will they?

I am saying having all the workforce going hopeless into debt like Bush is doing to our country to go back to college isn't feasible when you are working 50 hours a week, and still taking in government handouts! And, isn't the answer to our problems, because you'll still need the receptionist, the machine operators, the nurse's aides, the plastic workers, the data entry operators, the mechanics, the teacher's aids, the machinists, the printers, the accounts recievable clerks, assemblers, truck drivers, the clerical assistants, customer service workers, janitors, sales clerks, home health aides, medical records clerks, forklift operator, packager, warehouse worker. And, I bet you will still want someone down at the mickey d's during lunchtime to take your order who understands english. Gee, if the company doesn't pay them enough to meet their basic needs, and the government doesn't supply them, well, just who in the world do you think will buy those products from the salesmen. The chinese peasants working for a few bucks a day?

I am saying it is foolish and a waste of resources to educate the number of people that we are talking about to be engineers, and such, unless there is a pretty good chance that the jobs are available for them when they are trained. Otherwise, you will have them working the same jobs as they were before. More than likely their education will be paid for either by educational grants or by educational loans, or more than likely both. All of which is resting on the shoulders of the american taxpayer. And, well, if all they can find is a job that barely meets their needs, or less, well, there is only a very slim chance that any loans they may have taken out will ever be repaid!

And, I am saying that many of these people own houses, and have other obligations that must be met while they are in school. Would you like for them to default on those obligations, just to please you and get that degree?

And, well, if only the college educated is priviledged enough to have kids, just how small will be the next generation's workforce be?

And, well, if the total workforce is college educated, just how valuable will that degree be?

And, there is no economy unless there is meaningful products being produced within it. The idea that we can con the peasants of other countries to produce them and sell them cheaply to us forever is insane!

And, well, under all this economic pressure that our country is now under, the rich and the affluent don't want their tax dollars going into the social security system anymore. They are the ones who have benefited from the plundering of it's funds. But, now they want to make sure they get their fair share, what they deserve, since they've worked so hard or are planning to. They would rather pull their money out, let the government default on these treasury bonds that social security has to prove their investment into our country's economy. Which will send a clear signal out to the entire world that hey, the US isn't trustworthy. Just how eager do you think China will be then to sell their manufactured products to us? Just where will you get your products to sell then?




All it is is a bunch of college educated fools trying to justify their lavish lifestyles, too blind to see the destruction it is doing to their own country. Guess they figure they'll just move to Iraq and enjoy the nice new roads, bridges, houses, and growing economy the US Taxpayer is footing the bill for.

I'm sorry, but when I was growing up, the companies footed the bill for training their clerical workers, the government didn't rob us blind to overtrain everyone for the job!



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 11:57 AM
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am tired of hearing it dawnstar! I make $12 per hour, in a very high cost of living area of the country, and I support my wife, mother in law, and four children. We have private medical insurance. We have good cars and clothes. My wife and I are both students. We save money. We do just fine, because we manage our money well, we make good decisions.

But the these leeches want to take from me to feed their own children! WHY? I feed my children just fine, I take care of myself and family, let them do the same! It is not my responsibility to feed your kids, I have a hard enough time taking care of my own without you people sending your jack-booted tax-thugs to steal my money to pay for others who don’t work as hard.

I don’t want to pay for your social security! I don’t want to pay for children to eat! I don’t want to pay for your medical, or for your children to see a doctor! If I did, I would. It is robbery! You take an honest mans resources at gun point, and then make excuses!

Cavscout takes care of cavscouts own, and doesn’t have enough to take care of you and yours!

If I can feed my children, then there is no reason another cant feed theirs. NO EXCUSES!



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by Off_The_Street
You got my last WAY ABOVE vote for this month, bud. Keep up the good work and sane economic thinking.

Remember, we're working for Freedom -- because Freedom works!


Thanks, man.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 12:23 PM
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People, please don't blame the people taking advantage of a legal government program.

There is no need for insults.

The fact of the matter is dawn, is that many people in this country are hungry, and that is a sad things for all of us. But we have a myriad of social programs that are not a portion of the federal government.

I think we can all agree that the less levels money has to go through, the less waste is created. Have you seen any statistics on federal waste lately?

It is staggering. I have 3 kids and my wife doesn't work in a VERY expensive area (not to mention having to pay almost 1200 bucks a month just to rent my OFFICE SPACE).

Some can work, some can not (although the reasons people can't work are very slim in my book).

Charity is something Americans are good at. If the government (through a few steps) could eliminate income tax all together along with ALL social programs and federal education budget.

All working people would recieve ALL of their money. It is no ones choice to force someone to give money away, but I can bet you that with that much more money, they would give more away and charities would spring up overnight.

The government has no right to the money I earn.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 12:24 PM
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Fine, then let' s drop the welfare, the food stamps, the hud, the medicaid, the heap, ect. ect. Then let's see just where we stand. But, they ain't doing that are they. Oh course not, then the companies would have to pay a decent wage for too many of their employees, the doctors and hospitals would either have to live with less patients, and thus less money since at least around here, alot of their patients are on these programs. (alot of it has to do with the state I am in....they are way too generous, and the companies have found it quite easy to take advantage of that fact)

No, they won't do that, but rather, they chose to put us in a situation where the gov't will more than likely default on their obligations....they'll stick it to those middle income earners who are being hurt by this bullcrap, who have paid in year after year in these programs by gunpoint as you put it, and rip them off. Since, hey, they were assured that they would have at least some of their needs met when it came time to retire. And, gee, then when we get too old and delapitate to work, their stupid income guidelines will be such that it basically says, hey, you earned enough through your lifetime, you should have saved more! But the same god blessed people who have sat on their buts year after year, ran their kids in to the doctors every time they had a runny nose, opened their windows up wide open in the middle of the winter "to let the place air out", all free of charge will still be sitting on their but, getting free food, free rent, free medical and all the rest.

And well, if you think our kids will be helping us out, well, I don't think so. They will paying out the butt to pay the budget deficit that their parents ran up!

And, you're not paying for my kids, or our food, or our medical, or anything else. And, well, more than likely you won't be paying for my social security. But, well, if the government decides that they don't want to pay us anything in social security, well, then they can just give us back the money that we have put into the system the day they make that decision. I will be glad to call it even! They have a legal obligation! Not that the powers that be care any about the laws.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 12:31 PM
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I don't even know what you are talking about Dawn.

The Fed is inept at covering the problem. Give us our damn money back and let us use it how we want.

How is that hard to get. Trust me that more would benifit than suffer, and those suffering would benifit from those that benifited.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
I don't even know what you are talking about Dawn.

The Fed is inept at covering the problem. Give us our damn money back and let us use it how we want.

How is that hard to get. Trust me that more would benifit than suffer, and those suffering would benifit from those that benifited.


Right on!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get uncle sam outa my wallet.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 12:46 PM
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Hey I am fully aware that it probably costs $10 to send one dollar through the government programs....have my doubts about the charity thing. If this was true, I doubt that the charity programs would have ever been started to begin with.

The fact is, the best way to meet the needs of your family is through work. Therefore, that work should be paying enough to meet those family needs. Period! At least in my area of the country, they have been rewarding people for not working, have made it necessary for many families to break apart, just to be able to have that food, or the medical care, of the roof over their heads. And, they have known this for at least a decade!! They chose not to do much about it, except of course, make single mothers go out and take whatever job they can find, regardless of the pay, and then we can all pay more money for their childcare!

So, now, well, they want to mess with our social security because, well, they've completely blown the budget to heck. Well, fine, tell ya what, dismantle the social security, do away with it all together if you want for anyone under 50 years. I don't care. But, well, then also, cut out all the pork barrel spending, the millions going overseas for god knows what, bring our troops home from the four corners of the earth, and let them protect our country. Say the heck with the wto, place tarriffs on those products that are also produced here so that foreign companies don't have such an advantage over us. Drill for oil in alaska and say the heck with the middle east, let them blow themselves up to allah and johova. Invest the money here, where it will make america strong!! and keep her strong. Produce our own products, and if we don't have enough resources to produce 20 million cars, then well, we will do with less. I am tired of watching our country commit suicide, and well, us defaulting on our debts will be the final nail in the coffin!



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 12:56 PM
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am tired of hearing it dawnstar! I make $12 per hour, in a very high cost of living area of the country, and I support my wife, mother in law, and four children. We have private medical insurance. We have good cars and clothes. My wife and I are both students. We save money. We do just fine, because we manage our money well, we make good decisions.

But the these leeches want to take from me to feed their own children! WHY? I feed my children just fine, I take care of myself and family, let them do the same! It is not my responsibility to feed your kids, I have a hard enough time taking care of my own without you people sending your jack-booted tax-thugs to steal my money to pay for others who don’t work as hard.

I don’t want to pay for your social security! I don’t want to pay for children to eat! I don’t want to pay for your medical, or for your children to see a doctor! If I did, I would. It is robbery! You take an honest mans resources at gun point, and then make excuses!

Cavscout takes care of cavscouts own, and doesn’t have enough to take care of you and yours!

If I can feed my children, then there is no reason another cant feed theirs. NO EXCUSES!



Then you're probably getting a lot of support from the federal, state, and local governments that you're not aware.

First, if you're making 24,000 a year with a wife and four kids, you're entitled to the Earned Income Tax Credit of around 4,000 per year. The lowest 20 percentile of taxfilers pay a tax rate of -5.3 percent because of this subsidy. This effectively rebates almost all of the 6.2 percent payroll tax for Social Security.

Second, you have four kids and the public school system is definitely not free to those of who have to pay real estate taxes. In Northern Virginia, the cost per pupil is over 12,000 per year. If you're the immigrant parent of a kid with limited English skills or the parent of a kid with anti-social or psychological problems, then you're costing the taxpayers around 20,000 for special ed. Now, making 24,000 per year and having four kids who are likely to be attending the public schools now or in the near future at a cost of at least 12,000 per kid, how do you come off telling people that you're taking care of your own?



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 01:23 PM
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Ichoro, fewer and fewer school districts are funded by property taxes any more. Instead more and more are being funded through the general fund, since schools in "good" neighborhoodd (i.e., those that pay the most taxes) tended to be better than other schools.

Heaven knows we can't have that! Why, if a better neighborhood had better schools, it might be an incentive for me to work hard and move into that neighborhood to improve my kids' education, and we all know that's completely wrong.

It's much better to just dumb down all the schools to the same level, don't you know?



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by lchoro

Then you're probably getting a lot of support from the federal, state, and local governments that you're not aware.

First, if you're making 24,000 a year with a wife and four kids, you're entitled to the Earned Income Tax Credit of around 4,000 per year. The lowest 20 percentile of taxfilers pay a tax rate of -5.3 percent because of this subsidy. This effectively rebates almost all of the 6.2 percent payroll tax for Social Security.


I don’t receive the Earned Income Tax Credit, thank you very much. I do qualify for about what you said (a little less, I think) but I received a refund for normal deductions. Not that this is any of your business, but my tax refund was only $1500. I have no problem getting back the money I actually paid.


you have four kids and the public school system is definitely not free to those of who have to pay real estate taxes. In Northern Virginia, the cost per pupil is over 12,000 per year. If you're the immigrant parent of a kid with limited English skills or the parent of a kid with anti-social or psychological problems, then you're costing the taxpayers around 20,000 for special ed. Now, making 24,000 per year and having four kids who are likely to be attending the public schools now or in the near future at a cost of at least 12,000 per kid, how do you come off telling people that you're taking care of your own?


Up till yesterday, my children were home schooled. The state of Nevada makes it almost impossible to home school your children, however, and when I moved here I put them into public school, as is required by state law. This and the roads are the only tax payer based systems I use, and I do pay for it. Every time I buy something, I pay a tax + the tariffs and costly government restrictions/programs that that raise the cost of EVERYTHING. Government costs more than what you see on your W-2.
Of course, all of this is the overly simplistic explanation.


[edit on 20-1-2005 by cavscout]



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 01:52 PM
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hey, our schools are funded alot by the property taxes, then the state government decided that NY City just wasn't getting enough money from the state. So they ordered the state to give NY City more. the money they want the state to give the city is greater than the entire allotment that the state usually gives to all the schools....make sense? didn't think so.

do I believe that the state and federal government should be helping the poorer districts out? heck, ya, especially if they expect every kid in the country to continue on to get a bachelor's degree if they want to live. But, well, a little sanity would be nice. and while local governments are struggling just to meet their obligations, these same legislatures are investing in such things as replicas of our great governors ancestral home and want to build new staduim (paid for by all of NY state taxpayers) in the city that the courts say needs more money that we usually pay for all of our schools put together.

I sorry, it's crap like that that is the problem, not the little social security program over here, holding it's own, and will continue to do so until 2040 or beyond....as long as the federal government can meet it's obligation and honor it's bonds!
And, the only reason that it wouldn't be able to is because it's throwing it's money around, not really caring what happens to it, spending it on things it has no business even messing with.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 02:28 PM
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Well, I see this has turned into a slugfest. Thats wonderfull. As the author of the post, I'd like to remind everyone that it is intended to be about being for or against SS reform. Not placing ones self on a pedestal(MWM1331). While I am glad you have all your ducks in a row, your arrogance and callousness are offensive. You seem to be trying to start a fight. I post here to avoid confrontations such as the one you are obvioulsy trying to start . My point was that the unexepected CAN and DOES happen. Even to someone who is flawless and perfect in EVERY aspect, such as yourself. --Oh and the leech you refer to (my SIL) receives $280 a month on a food card and $200 a month in cash benefits. Her husband had a $50,000 policy.

CAVSCOUT--->



Pull our military out of the 150+ countries we are in, there’s a big chunk of change. Get rid of public schools, seeing as they don’t even teach enough to read and write.


Your not serious are you?



Well, as I stated, if you were taxed less, you could save more for those rainy days and you wouldn’t need to have the government steal my money on your behalf. What, you don't trust yourself to save? "Please, IRS, don't trust me to be responsible with my own money, I'd probably blow it all!" Sounds like a personal problem to me, one that you should not drag others into.


No. I just dont want to GAMBLE my money in the stock market. I have a 401 which does well, I guess. I'm not a finance major. I dont pretend to be. But I would rather let that money go in and be there when I'm 65 or whenever. I know that at the current rate it may be in trouble, but my point is that if we have 80 billion here and 350 million there, we can surely fix this.




They are. Sorry to say, but what does a leach do? It sucks the life-blood out of its victim. What is the life-blood of our society? Currency. Just as a leach sucks its host's most valuable resource, so do social leaches suck our most valuable resources.


Well, guess what? This is America and thats what we do. We take care of our own as well as others. We are a compassionate nation. We help people who need it. Also consider this. While there are all these "leeches" you refer to, remember they create jobs. Good paying ones at that. First, they have an office that employs case workers, and they have a high chain of command. Each making more money. The more money they earn, they put back in the economy by purchasing homes and cars, etc. So you see, even the leeches help you. Point-- Americans help thier own. I suppose you blame everyone in Florida for living where they KNOW there are hurricanes, or what about the people in the WTC? Surely they knew that there would be another attack. What fools were they for working there. Why did we let these leeches destroy all that city property. We should have left them to die. Right? Is that how you feel? Because thats how both you and MWN1331 come off as.




Maybe Americans should lower our standards. Ever seen how some of the poorer countries live? Our "poor" are their middle class.


ummm, you go right ahead and lower yours. I think what your saying is that since the rest of the world has low standards, so should we? I also see countries that have starving people. Warlords keeping aid shipments for themselves. Would that be better? Where do you draw the line. The countries you refer to are 3rd world nations. We are not. We have the means to take care of those who cant help themselves. If you hate that so much, perhaps you should relocate somewhere more hospitible with your views like, Somalia or somewhere similar? A place where its everyman for himself.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 02:37 PM
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Let me step in to cool everyone down. Lets play nice now.

I myself am for Privitizing the ENTIRE SS system, but would like the money taken form me returned PLUS INTEREST. Even placed into a savings account for all those years I could retire NOW instead of years from now.

What most dont understand is SS is just a smoke screen to steal more money from the Taxpayer.

Now where I deverge from some is I dont have a problem with kicking in a couple bucks to help those that REALLY need it, which is maybe a fraction of who is getting it now. And I would have most of it go into job retraining.

Example....

Constrution worker gets crippled and can no longer build bridges. Can he not program a computer? Just an example.

But as Cav said the bottom line when you take a persons money against their will it is ROBBERY no matter HOW you phrase it.

[edit on 20-1-2005 by Amuk]



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 03:08 PM
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Then maybe we should just do away with the concept of government, since they have been taking the money against the people's will since the beginning of time.

The question isn't weather or not it is the right of the government to take money from you, but rather, just what that money should be used for. Is is going into programs that are beneficial to society as a whole. So, how does a replica of gov. pataki's ancestral home benefit society in any way?

On the other hand, the social service net, along with the social security system does serve the public. I mean, well, hungry people clutter up the streets panhandling, businesses don't like that do they. Hungry people often resort to theft to feed themselves. Not very many workers would be happy knowing that their parents were homeless, unfed, ect. So, well, I think it is beneficial that society helps those who cannot meet their own needs.

As far as social security goes, I am sorry, but I think the government has an obligation to at least provide the same lifestyle to those who have spent half their lifetimes paying into the system as the system provided to their parents, if at all possible. Therefore, no I don't believe that anyone who has gone through half of their work life now should be able to opt out. As far as the younger workers, who actually might have a chance of saving this money and being able to retire, well, ya, maybe they should be allowed to have control of that money, but then they should also have full control what is done with it, and be prepared to accept the consequences whatever happens. Bush's plan sounds like the government will have a say and wants it invested into the stocks. Well, how many retirement funds have gone bust because of the crap in the 90's with the likes of ken ley and his pals? Forget that one!

And, well, if this administration wants me to take them seriously on this issue, well, they need to start acting like money doesn't grow on trees. Cut ALL the unnecessary funding out of the budget, the ancestral homelands, the atriums, the "gee, we did a great job" parties.... every last dime that cannot be justified in the eyes of the majority of the taxpayers. Then well, maybe I will take them seriously about this. A paycut on their part might do wonders also.



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
Then maybe we should just do away with the concept of government, since they have been taking the money against the people's will since the beginning of time.


I am for this except for the fact it wont work. Other governments will step in to take its place.

The second best option is to starve the beast into submission. The Republicans are no better than the Dems BOTH are for bigger government the Reps just have a better PR program



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
As far as social security goes, I am sorry, but I think the government has an obligation ...


You must have meant I have an obligation? The government makes very little money on its own. That money comes from me and millions of others who don’t want to pay it!

Why can’t you seem to understand that? Are you so used to paying taxes that your mind has developed a copping mechanism where in you just refuse to acknowledge that you are being robbed? Sounds sort of like you and your ilk are in denial about some things. Sounds like you may want to think about seeing a good therapist about your dissociatiatingbehaviors toward your victimization by those who govern your paycheck.

Welcoming attitude toward getting robbed at gunpoint amounts to mental illness. Just don’t expect me to pay for your meds (oh yeah, I forgot, the government pays for that with all that income they bring in from nowhere.)

If government made money, I would understand a little better how you feel. As it is, government gets money from those it governs.

Don’t tell me I have an obligation to pay for anyone’s wellbeing except my family.

If you want my money, don’t send government agents for it, come to my house and try to get it yourself. Come on, no reason to beat around the bush about it; you want to rob me, at least do it to my face



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 04:51 PM
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``

I'm for a Social Security reform...its a broken system & too many people have learned to abuse it.

I believe all income earning citizens/individuals should participate in the reformed S.S.
(participation also helps to unify the country as you have a vested interest in the governance and future...etc)

then, the added benefit would be that Congress will be kept busy with the S.S Reform Act, and have less time for pork-barrel & other special spending bills.

thats my short answer


)(



posted on Jan, 20 2005 @ 06:14 PM
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thanks , St. My opinion is that is should be voluntary. Those idiots who think they can get rich investing it, go right ahead. If they do well, congrats. If they fall on their rear and end up broke, thats their problem. Im doing my part to insure that I'm ok, but Id like to have the nest egg to help things along. thats all



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