UK Votes to Leave EU

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Because its the nearest size EU economy to Scotland in terms of overall economic weight.

Im sorry but Scotland is not in the same league as Germany, France or even Italy in terms of economic influence.

Or?

a reply to: SprocketUK

Again, our waters only extend 13 miles from our shores. I don't know but i would be interested if you did the proportion of fish caught by us within that 13 mile limit? I would suspect it is fairly small.

And by your argument, do this mean that we shouldn't be fishing around the Faroes? If your argument is to work for us then surely it also applies to ther nations? And if so, that would further damage our fishing industry.

It really isn't as simple as you are making out is the point i am making. And that is just one tiny area that we now have to negotiate. If we are going to even attempt to make Brexit work for us, we need to take the blinkers off and stop pretending that everything is now going to be magically alright or that everything about the EU is intrinsically bad. If we force an issue in this area, for instance, the EU can hit back in other areas (auto trade being an obvious one but more worryingly it could equally be finance).

A huge area for future worry is energy. We already rely on foreign owned (and supplied) energy. Energy costs will be escalating (and possibly quite dramatically) over the next few years and we will have no control over this. It is already difficult for the Government to do anything about foreign energy firms, much more so when we are no longer at the table that allows us to use the EU to apply the pressure. In other words, our energy security as a nation is already low. In a couple of years time it will be non existent. Our options are to build more nuclear power stations, green energy or to reopen coal burning power stations. For any of those, we need investment and investment funds are already drying up (new Hinckley already looks like being mothballed as just 1 example).

I am not saying any of this to create an argument with you particularly, more to inject some realism into our future. Brexit won - we now need to move forward constructively, not with more lies and propaganda. Everything these days is interconnected. Trying to extricate ourselves from all of that is going to be a complete nightmare and it is foolish and dishonest to claim otherwise (as some Brexiteers are currently doing).

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Because its the nearest size EU economy to Scotland in terms of overall economic weight.

Im sorry but Scotland is not in the same league as Germany, France or even Italy in terms of economic influence.

Or?

Yet Greece today is the EU whipping boy.
Germany bitch.

Why would Scotland be any different?

a reply to: Flavian

The uk quota for our territorial waters is still just 20%. The rest goes to EU.

Energy would already be cheaper without eu rule that forbade us abolishing vat on electric and gas supplies.


ETA that when I quoted 24 miles of travel it was to include the journey back since there aren't fish markets in the sea.
Compare that to the round trip for a trawler out of, say Cadiz and it's mental.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Because its the nearest size EU economy to Scotland in terms of overall economic weight.

Im sorry but Scotland is not in the same league as Germany, France or even Italy in terms of economic influence.

Or?

Yet Greece today is the EU whipping boy.
Germany bitch.

Why would Scotland be any different?

Because its the nearest size EU economy to Scotland in terms of overall economic weight.

Didn't take you long for the real reason as to why you compared Greece with Scotland...Soooo Predictable. Greece got itself into the mess it's in because of serious financial mismanagement and not paying Taxes...Absolutely nothing to do with Nearest size economies or overall economic weight that you stated.

You compared Greece to Scotland for one reason and one reason only...Wishfull thinking mate. Scotland wont end up like Greece..We pay our taxes.

A lot of the problems we see with the EU are exactly the same we see at home , we as a people are unable to alter or affect the laws which govern us. The whole democratic system or the illusion of, is set up so that we as people cant create change its gone so far on that the whole system is effectively unstoppable through the proper channels and proper discourse as we are led to believe we can make change but its evident that we cant !

The only way any change will happen at this stage is through some form of revolution, what that revolution is I don't know.
technological maybe

originally posted by: sapien82
A lot of the problems we see with the EU are exactly the same we see at home , we as a people are unable to alter or affect the laws which govern us. The whole democratic system or the illusion of, is set up so that we as people cant create change its gone so far on that the whole system is effectively unstoppable through the proper channels and proper discourse as we are led to believe we can make change but its evident that we cant !

The only way any change will happen at this stage is through some form of revolution, what that revolution is I don't know.
technological maybe

It is really actually simple. In the modern world, we do not need governments. We could have a civil servant class in each country to ensure the smooth running (ie collection of taxes and then distirbution of those taxes) and then simply let the rest of us get on withour lives.

Multi nationals run everything anyway and with the internet and global world, governments don't really serve much purpose anymore.

a reply to: Flavian

Who sets the tax rates and decides upon what gets taxed though?

I do kinda like the idea in general.

a reply to: SprocketUK

Us by vote (via internet, for example). We vote on what laws we would like enacting, what tax rates to be set, etc.

The only reason i really though of this was bcause of Belgium - some of their best years in the last few decades were a couple of years ago when they had nio government for 2 years. Politically, it was a bit of a panic but socially and economically not so much.

Sadly i can't ever see this becoming a reality though as the multi nationals run everything. If they have no MP's (or foreign equivalents) in their pockets, how could they ever run roughshod over the rest of us?

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: Flavian


Energy would already be cheaper without eu rule that forbade us abolishing vat on electric and gas supplies..

the conservatives actually backed that law, ukip only vote when the tories told them to, so supported it too.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Because its the nearest size EU economy to Scotland in terms of overall economic weight.

Im sorry but Scotland is not in the same league as Germany, France or even Italy in terms of economic influence.

Or?

Yet Greece today is the EU whipping boy.
Germany bitch.

Why would Scotland be any different?

Because its the nearest size EU economy to Scotland in terms of overall economic weight.

Didn't take you long for the real reason as to why you compared Greece with Scotland...Soooo Predictable. Greece got itself into the mess it's in because of serious financial mismanagement and not paying Taxes...Absolutely nothing to do with Nearest size economies or overall economic weight that you stated.

You compared Greece to Scotland for one reason and one reason only...Wishfull thinking mate. Scotland wont end up like Greece..We pay our taxes.

But Scotland would still be a insignificant part of the EU with little to no influence.

Not saying you will go bust or your standard or living will go down.

Just saying you freedom and influence will be drastically cut when you only have 6 MEPs out of 700 and the influence on the council to do squat.


And that's if your even allowed into the EU as a independent Scotland as Spain and Belgium (which I may add has more influence) will likely try to block it as they said they would in 2014.

a reply to: crazyewok

But for Spain and Belgium it would be a nightmare, think about the Catalans, or Fleming and wallonia. Scotland would indeed not get much support from them.

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: SprocketUK

Us by vote (via internet, for example). We vote on what laws we would like enacting, what tax rates to be set, etc.

The only reason i really though of this was bcause of Belgium - some of their best years in the last few decades were a couple of years ago when they had nio government for 2 years. Politically, it was a bit of a panic but socially and economically not so much.

Sadly i can't ever see this becoming a reality though as the multi nationals run everything. If they have no MP's (or foreign equivalents) in their pockets, how could they ever run roughshod over the rest of us?

I proposed this sort of thing in a thread ages ago.
Definitely a good idea.
Have a petition limit to create a vote on a particular issue and then have an electronic vote via phone or net.

No more money grubbing, lying politicians.

Sounds like heaven.

Wouldn't have mattered a reply to: stinkelbaum

You really think that the tories carried the vote? With or without them it would have passed, the point is, what kind of idiot would propose such a law?

Why shouldn't nation states be free to lower taxes?

a reply to: crazyewok

This is just crass politics. Sturgeon has no authority to negotiate as that power does not sit with her or the Scottish Parliament. Sturgeon is just rolling on her PR for local consumption in lieu of a second referendum should the UK parliament allow a second referendum on independence. It's sort of "look at me, I'm acting like a grown up", when actually she's got no real power in this respect.

In fact, Spain has just made it clear that Sturgeon should not be doing what she's doing, but hey she's a real PM in waiting and the nationalists love it.

Spanish premier Mariano Rajoy said he "believes everyone is extremely against it" and that "if the UK leaves, Scotland leaves".

Source BBC

a reply to: paraphi

She is First Minister of Scotland, her job is to represent the will of the Scottish People which is to remain in the EU.

EU law is incorporated into the foundation of the Scottish Parliament, In order to remove Scotland from the EU Westminster will need legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament which she has made clear withholding is an option.

Westminster would then have to draft legislation changing the terms of devolution which would pretty much prove the point the SNP and other independence parties have being making all along, Power devolved is power retained,

This strikes me a pretty no lose scenario for the SNP.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Yes, but you don't get it. The pre-eminent authority in the UK is the UK Parliament. Powers are given to Scotland, and can be taken away. If the Scots want to hold the majority to ransom then the ability for Scotland to withhold consent can be over-ruled.

Yes, the nationalists are in a win-win situation. It's quite remarkable how the Scots have been duped by the SNP and now find themselves in a situation where they are pawns in the nationalist initiative to get independence. Noting that only recently independence was not wanted by the Scots.

Oops. Double post

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: ScepticScot

Yes, but you don't get it. The pre-eminent authority in the UK is the UK Parliament. Powers are given to Scotland, and can be taken away. If the Scots want to hold the majority to ransom then the ability for Scotland to withhold consent can be over-ruled.

Yes, the nationalists are in a win-win situation. It's quite remarkable how the Scots have been duped by the SNP and now find themselves in a situation where they are pawns in the nationalist initiative to get independence. Noting that only recently independence was not wanted by the Scots.

News flash.... It's no a great secret the SNP are for independence, they have clearly stated that since the day of their inception. as have several other parties at holyrood. How does that make the SNP supporters Duped.? We know what we are getting into.

If you want to talk about duped then look at the promises made by the No camp before the Scottish referendum..

Here's a few classics.
Independence = No Warships built on the Clyde..... Turns out it was the opposite. The Warships have mysteriously been cancelled.

independence = No membership of Europe......How's that worked out for us.

Independence= Scotland could lose renewable energies subsidies with a Yes vote.....Westminster pulled it's promise of 1 billion and the project failed.

Independence= No Pound.....It would have been totally feasible, There was no need for a independent currency, Mervyn King...after the Vote.

Shall i go on with the duping.?


Yeah, we were Duped alright....by Liars opposed to Scottish independence.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Independence = No Warships built on the Clyde..... Turns out it was the opposite. The Warships have mysteriously been cancelled.

Duped and believing anything, yes. The warships have not been cancelled. They are delayed, as often happens with complex defence projects. No doubt with the nationalists gunning for independence again they will definitely be cancelled. Quite right too. As Scotland withdraws from the Union, so will shipbuilding.