SOME American Indian views on Homosexuality

a reply to: onehuman

There are tribes in Africa who had no concept of 'Gender Roles' before colonials started showing up. They just lived their lives in accordance with how they felt.

~Tenth

a reply to: Butterfinger

I know you posted some crap about the Navajos which doesn't disprove the op at all. They traditionally before the white man had gay marriage. And it wasn't only liberals reporting it. It was the people who were rounding them up into camps.

Second you don't know I am white.

Third half the Americans living in this country don't know the history of their own country let alone their ethnic background.

Being part of a culture doesn't make you an expert on the history of your culture. You aren't born with that knowledge. And your really dense if you think your tribe ia living as they did before Europeans. Which was the whole purpose of the op.

a reply to: Lysergic

as opposed to if it doesn't correspond to the accepted judeo-christian philosophy and recorded history, it must be wrong??

I'm not native american but I can find no reason to believe that the two-spirit tradition should be discounted as being not true. or, even, in some ways quite beneficial for their society.

accepting people for who and what they are does seem to work better then not accepting them and demanding them to change to fit your standards..
and I have to wonder, if we had been more accepting of those that just didn't fit into our strict sexual view, would we be having people now willing to go through long and painful surgeries like they are now in hopes that if they just change, they will be more likely to be accepted?

you know i get a kick out of how people want to make out like the native americans( north and south) were all civilized and sh@@.
when in fact they were quite brutal, ruthless snakes in the grass to other tribes that they weren't on friendly terms with.
also among tribe members justice was harsh and and swift.

nothing like revisionist history.

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: onehuman

Very sophisticated way of looking at this issue. Its a shame this view wasn't better known in the West as it might have saved a lot of lives and humiliations.

The west likes slavery. They will find a way to humiliate and destroy other people culture forcing them to accept their fake slave system. Just look at all the American influenced countries. Even America itself is turning into a giant slave system.

originally posted by: Lysergic
Well if Native America Indians say it, it must be the 100% truth.

It's not just that.... It's that sometimes people cherry pick one aspect of another nation/society/culture and present it in a "why can't we be more like them?" kind of way while ignoring other aspects of those alternate nations/societies/cultures.

In the case of Native Americans, they may have had no issues with homosexuals/bisexuals... but some also engaged in human sacrifices.

North American indigenous cultures DID practice human sacrifice, but only at an infinitesimally smaller scale compared to the blood lust of the Mexica (Aztecs.) The most common form of human sacrifice was the ritualized torture of captured enemy soldiers. Many documented examples of this practice can be found throughout Canada, the United States and the Caribbean Islands.

Link

a reply to: dawnstar

There are some Spanish misionary journals about the joyas in some Californian tribes that were boys that wore women's clothing and were "sodomites" and well respected and revered in the culture.

Check out The Melanesian Model of homosexuality for something very weird (to my culture).

a reply to: luthier

If you re-read my posts you can easily see my beef is with outside cultures telling me that my ancestors prescribed to some notion that is on the forefront of daily political life.

I dont care if my tribe accepted gay lifestyles, often cultures have a special place for special minorities.

This Two-Spirit buzz word was agreed upon in 1990s gay native american conference. No agenda?

Just because a culture was one way before colonization doesnt mean its better, it just means you want to put us on a pedestal like a conquered people trophy.

Imposing a notion you get fuzzy feelings from on someone else's culture based on an article, an undefined amount of tribes that are ok with it, and a buzz word that sounds like it was used "many moons ago", is simply wrong.

That being said; Hooray for those tribes we CAN prove are ok with it. Just dont spread the idea around like it was universal, as if could further legitimize your politics.

originally posted by: Butterfinger
Are we going to start up the old notion of Native Americans being an Earth tuned magic elf culture again?

You know, we also allowed some limited Pedophilia(as muslims do), black slaves(Confederacy had more indian tribes that the union), honor killings, and even some cannibalism. Each of these things had thier own words too, just like "Winkte" (which is a contested translation use of the word BTW)

Can we legitimize these things as well just because your cigar statue notion of us is convenient?

White people... SMH

Exactly... the amount of delusional romantization that these people engage in is hilarious. They try to do the same thing with prehistoric peoples.

It doesn't matter that we can show them anthropological accounts contradicting their bullsh*t, it doesn't matter that many Native American groups were quite warlike, patriarchal, and aggressively dominant. Nah, they all just sat around the campfire communing with animal spirits.

This kind of thinking does a disservice to American Indians.

Watching Little Big man much ? This article doesn't give much .....any.... references for the information put in the OP. The Gay community is and has been reaching for anything to legitimize their platform as being sound. It is reprobate, abhorrent and an abomination. I make no apology, none...

Now, I'm being humorous here so nobody get their panties in a knot.... but do these guys look like a bunch of fairies and "two-spirits"? Do they look like they love homos and sing kumbaya?

feedyweedy.com...

No, they look like hardened warriors who don't give a f*ck about your 21st century delusions.

a reply to: onehuman

Your attempting to rewrite history first the term 2 spirits was invented in the 1990s. Second not all Indian tribes had the same beliefs. The only thing you were correct about was that gays were not ostrisized since in a tribe every member counts there is work to be done. And others saw them as thr perfect shamans sonce they were not attracted to the opisit sex. Much like priests vow of celibacy but along those same lines it wasn't adhered to. Some tribes just allowed them to do the work of the opisit gender. Others saw did indeed have gender roles and didn't like them changing. Read about running eagle she had to overcome steotypes but eventually became a war party leader for the blackfoot. But at first she was excluded from what was considered male activities. Later she even takes on wives to help care for her family. Oh one last thing the tribe believed she died because she had sex with a man.

a reply to: Butterfinger

Sure I have no agenda though. I just like anthropology and the sexualities of domestic scale culture are extremely varriable.

And for those people who say Indians were barbaric warred etc. No kidding. Only really regressive liberals would think otherwise.

I didn't comment on two spirits. I commented that not only brittish colonial anthropologists (who were sent to understand the culture to learn how to manipulate them into Treatises and such) and early settlers accounts of blasphemous sexual practices. Does that mean the Mashpee or Iroquois were the same as the Navajo or Sioux nope. There may have been extremely strait tribes too.

Hell in South America the Yanamami slice there male genitalia up to look like females.

Does that make a culture that would create genocide or distribute polio blankets more civilized? Or the Spanish purposely raping as many women as possible to make conversion easier after the children are half Spanish?

I don't think so.

I think there is an etic and emic perspective and most cultures have human rights problems. Some more "civilized" then others. Some with much more than others.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Butterfinger

Sure I have no agenda though. I just like anthropology and the sexualities of domestic scale culture are extremely varriable.

And for those people who say Indians were barbaric warred etc. No kidding. Only really regressive liberals would think otherwise.

I didn't comment on two spirits. I commented that not only brittish colonial anthropologists (who were sent to understand the culture to learn how to manipulate them into Treatises and such) and early settlers accounts of blasphemous sexual practices. Does that mean the Mashpee or Iroquois were the same as the Navajo or Sioux nope. There may have been extremely strait tribes too.

Hell in South America the Yanamami slice there male genitalia up to look like females.

Does that make a culture that would create genocide or distribute polio blankets more civilized? Or the Spanish purposely raping as many women as possible to make conversion easier after the children are half Spanish?

I don't think so.

I think there is an etic and emic perspective and most cultures have human rights problems. Some more "civilized" then others. Some with much more than others.

Many accounts wereally written to show how ungodly they were so you have to be cautious on who is writing the narrative. A Spanish priest is going to say they were rampant homosexuals and worshipped deities. Two reasons gave him a reason to be there to convert the heathens. And it allowed him and the soldiers to treat them as less than human. Meaning they could kill them or cheat them since they didn't have the same rights as a god fearing chriatian.

a reply to: dragonridr

True.

"Hey Spain, they got dudes humpin dudes out here its like nutz bruh..."

"I got you fam. Heres more conquistadors and altar boys"

-Spaniards most likely

a reply to: dragonridr

Really? You don't think anthropologists today understand that? Magret Meade helped start a completely different form of anthropology.

So when I say thee are accounts that's anthropology referencing journal accounts with the language and the character of the writer.

An actually it was the soldiers doing most of the brutal harm. There were several Jesuit missionaries that were protecting the tribes from even worse abuse from the Spanish military.


Have you read a lot of anthropology?

originally posted by: Butterfinger
Are we going to start up the old notion of Native Americans being an Earth tuned magic elf culture again?

You know, we also allowed some limited Pedophilia(as muslims do), black slaves(Confederacy had more indian tribes that the union), honor killings, and even some cannibalism. Each of these things had thier own words too, just like "Winkte" (which is a contested translation use of the word BTW)

Can we legitimize these things as well just because your cigar statue notion of us is convenient?

White people... SMH

Who are your People?

Holy crap..... how did certain posts get so many stars so quickly? Like there were some that had just a few stars five minutes ago, and then I come back and they've got like 20 in the span of a few minutes.

Weird..... Maybe it's just the time of day when a lot of people are online or something.

originally posted by: Talorc
Now, I'm being humorous here so nobody get their panties in a knot.... but do these guys look like a bunch of fairies and "two-spirits"? Do they look like they love homos and sing kumbaya?

feedyweedy.com...

No, they look like hardened warriors who don't give a f*ck about your 21st century delusions.

Unfortunately, Christianity has been destroying much of the Native American beliefs and culture.

From reading, there is organized efforts to revive the older beliefs, and blend the 2 together.

And NO, that is not Christian bashing, its just a fact.

This is just one article.

For America's indigenous people, late 19th century Christianity meant forced assimilation and cultural domination. Through government-sponsored boarding schools, Christian missionaries worked to convert native children, who were often referred to as "savages." Generations later, Native Americans who chose Christianity were said to have "sold out" to white people. In some circles, they're still considered traitors. "Why embrace Christianity?" is a question congregant Melody Spears hears often. "Some of my relatives are anti-church," she said. "There's just bitterness, I guess. I think it's their way of coping with what has happened in the past in our history with the church. www.mprnews.org...

a reply to: Butterfinger

Why so mean? Do you hate white people?