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Guess how many welfare recipients tested positive in Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder’s drug test?

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posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:03 PM
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a reply to: neutronflux

Not unless it's to get them in rehab for addiction.

Really the only actual fair system is basic income. Hence why so many conservatives are for it.

We can't nanny the people. The logistics of doing that (as well as the personal liberty issue) are more wasteful than helpful.

Getting addicts help is another story.

Assuming a heroin addict is going to get clean being kicked off benefits is ignorant. Not only can they die from withdrawal they will do anything to get the drugs when addicted.

Now what about marijuana?




posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:05 PM
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originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: luthier

And how do stop cheats / fraud by not using preventative monitoring and oversight?


There are miles of difference between regulatory oversight, and nosing into what adults do in the privacy of their own home.

I think you can likely have regulatory oversight without a drug test, as drug use has nothing to do with welfare fraud. Its what is known as "non sequitur".



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:05 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Maybe we should have written tests for welfare too! Or maybe have walfare ppersons at least leave the house to get the check. Or pass a background check. Life is so though.... Wish I could have the expectations society has for welfare recipients at my Job?



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:08 PM
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a reply to: luthier

Heres the kicker: getting access to rehab is almost impossible for someone without someone to help them through the process. By the time you are needing rehab, you aren't really able to understand the maze of paperwork needed to get into treatment if you don't have insurance. Even then, without a court order, you will likely have to wait. Sometimes months.

The fact that we treat a medical issue with prison is reprehensible. Even worse: its easier to go to prison for using heroin than to go to rehab.

Our system is horrendously broken.



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:09 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Really. So pilots shouldn't have physicals? People that brake laws to do illegal drugs or abuse alcohol shouldn't have background checks or are not security risks. Wish I lived in your little world.



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:10 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: whatmakesyouright
Again, I don't care if people smoke pot, it should be legal anyway. But thinking that 0 people actually did drugs ...


0 out of 303 is completely possible given the rates other states have found drug testing to be at. However, if you read the article it sounds like $300,000 and 303 people were set aside for the program, they've spent $300 of that budget so far, which would suggest they've only tested 3 people in the initial sample and are extrapolating from there.


Which is also an arguement for how illl thought out the plan is.

I mean maybe it's because my wife is a researcher but that is not a good sample size to extrapolate from. Or wait maybe all I need is my middle school education to know that. Hence the idiocracy of always just adding to a failing system instead of redesigning and rethinking it.
edit on 24-6-2016 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:12 PM
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originally posted by: Orionx2
Sorry, basic income? Were will the money come from? The people that actually get off their ass and work will now be more taxed to pay people to do nothing? Why will people be motivated to work or improve themselves if they get free money?????


The vast majority of the money for it comes from cutting existing social programs and the related bureaucracy.

Also, many people are motivated to improve their circumstances. Let me ask you, what motivated you to get to your current place in life when you had food and shelter at a lower income, in a worse job? Nations like Norway have proven that people still work with a basic income, interestingly enough you get an even more market based system and better terms for employees because the employers have higher competition on attracting talent. Sounds like a healthy business atmosphere to me.



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:12 PM
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a reply to: neutronflux
Your making a strawman and you know it.

Physicals are not drug tests.

Pilots drink alcohol.

Should you have to lift 100lbs to be an accountant?

I mean since everybody should have the same deal?



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:14 PM
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originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Maybe we should have written tests for welfare too! Or maybe have walfare ppersons at least leave the house to get the check. Or pass a background check. Life is so though.... Wish I could have the expectations society has for welfare recipients at my Job?


Welfare isn't a job. The comparison is moot.

Welfare is something that many who are forced to accept it find humiliating. Welfare also accounts for less than 1% of Imperial America's annual budget. To take someone who's down their luck and already humiliated, and further humiliate them by making them give up body fluids like an animal in a lab, just so we can "make it fair" with some people who have jobs (i've never used drug testing i my places....i find it reprehensible) seems just dumb.

Even worse: adverse impact. When you look at welfare registrations.....is it filled with white men? Nope, its filled with minority women. So we have a law that perpetuates the insane stereotype that all minorities are drug addicts.



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:15 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
I didn't know drug tests were that inaccurate.


They have about a 5% false positive rate and a 1% false negative rate.


Oh, I'm sure.



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:16 PM
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originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Really. So pilots shouldn't have physicals? People that brake laws to do illegal drugs or abuse alcohol shouldn't have background checks or are not security risks. Wish I lived in your little world.


Im sorry....are you insinuating that a welfare recipient will hold the lives of hundreds of people in their hands while they fly a gas loaded missile through our sky's?

Like i said....welfare isn't job. The argument is moot.



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:19 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The job of a walfare person is to be employable and get off walfare.



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:20 PM
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a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Or only dumb people are on welfare?



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:21 PM
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a reply to: neutronflux

But there are literally not enough jobs for millions of people. Which is why your logic is so bad.


The number of Americans 16 years and older who did not participate in the labor force--meaning they neither had a job nor actively sought one in the last four weeks--rose from 92,898,000 in February to 93,175,000 in March, according to data released today by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.




edit on 24-6-2016 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:22 PM
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originally posted by: neutronfluxAgain, florida was taken for one billion in welfare fraud in 2012. 2 million in drug testing is only .2 percent of what was paid in fraudulent claims?


That $2 million was just in legal costs. It turns out that despite the claimed $40 per test, Florida was spending $1100 per person going to the governors own company. All together the state spent about $4 million in order to cut off about $1 million/year in spending across 206 people.

That's for the very best year the program would ever have. Assuming you actually caught the majority of drug users in the first year, what do you think the returns would be like on the followup year? $4 million to find 20 people and save $100,000?

The program just doesn't work.



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:26 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan

Police departments dont turn a profit, they don't work? In fact, what crimes to cops even prevent. So there is no need for criminal and fraud oversight?



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:29 PM
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a reply to: neutronflux

stateofworkingamerica.org...

93 million working age adults are not working

5.4 million job opening. (I was wrong about 6.8).

You figure it out.



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:30 PM
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originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Aazadan

You sure? The test specimens are usually split up. Three test portions and sapmle reserve. If 2 out three test positive, then its called positive. The sample reserve is kept for legal reasons on positive samples? I have to say your figures are for individual tests not the process as a whole.


No, that's for tests as a whole. It's an estimate on the numbers but they're in that ballpark. These tests aren't 100%, and that's why it's so ridiculous to use them for employment. 5% of people who get jobs instantly lose that job because they fail the drug test due to a false positive.

In the welfare system because it involves a court of law, criminal charges, reasonable doubt, and all the rest if someone tests positive they're given a chance to appeal and get a second test. Failing two tests on a false positive opposed to one is only 1 in 400 but I think the appeal test is a little more accurate (and expensive). Even then, any half decent lawyer will still argue reasonable doubt because false positives do happen.

On top of that, drug testing and then removing any chance of addicts being productive in life is the worst way to go about removing drugs from society. Countries that have gone forward with decriminalization, free clinics, clean needles, and so on have seen a decrease in crime and a reduction in disease, which in turn brings a reduction in health costs.



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:30 PM
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a reply to: luthier

I think there sre many technological fields in the USA underemployed. But kids would rather live like rock stars than get the schooling. Always money for cigarettes, alcohol, and drugs. But not for schooling.



posted on Jun, 24 2016 @ 11:31 PM
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a reply to: luthier

Unemployment rate is undet 6 percent?




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