Society is forced to be accepting of gays & transgenders.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma

How was that dishonest?

Then I misunderstood. Someone else had already asked me that question and I had answered that it was a general name calling sent out to a group and not me in particular. When you wrote "I read that." I thought you meant you had already read that, you knew the answer to the question.

I am having to repeat myself a lot here so far, and sometimes you just have to do that, people can't read the whole 20 pages before.... but if I go to the trouble of re-explaining and answering the same questions, I feel exasperated when they answer- yeah I already know that. I went to the trouble for nothing.

It was late, I was tired, I apologize for making a mistake.


I went back and found it- I had written "This wasn't singling me out either, it was directed towards a group of family members"
I thought you meant you had already read that.

a reply to: Bluesma

It was late, I was tired, I apologize for making a mistake.

You called me a liar

Thanks for acknowledging your mistake

The moment has passed - moving on now...

I always think there's going to be an opportunity to actually discuss these things. Hope springs eternal I guess

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma

It was late, I was tired, I apologize for making a mistake.

You called me a liar

Thanks for acknowledging your mistake

I called it dishonest to make a pointed question, and claim you are just curious.
Lots of people do that, even ones that are not "liars". Usually just because it is "a figure of speech" and they never stopped to think about it- hence the need for someone to point out one day that it is not honest.

Apparently I made a mistake, it was not a pointed question. I apologized for misinterpreting.
To be fair, I already wrote the answer to your question earlier in the thread, you say you already read it, and you asked anyway- that seems to say, "I knew, I asked because I wanted to make a point, not because I wanted the answer."

I did not call you a liar. I did not even use that word, and I don't catagorize people that way. You communicated clumsily, miscommunication happened, as that does sometimes, and I apologized for misunderstanding.

Blow it up into calling you names if you want, but that didn't happen.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

originally posted by: SpaceGoatFart

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
That's all well and good, till it gets to the point of telling me I have to agree.

No one tells you you have to agree. Only to not be an ass about it. Very different

If someone's job or business is threatened, because they don't agree, I'd call the person threatening the "ass". Maybe that's just me. No one that knows me has ever called me judgmental, however, and that includes a lot of people, with a lot of different ideas, practices, and beliefs. I can respect that we don't all agree. It would be nice if the group shouting "tolerance" all the time could be so themselves.

If your job is threatened it isn't because you disagree. It's because you refuse to serve a customer because of his color/religion/sexual preference.

Try to defend that kind of behavior as much as you want, it's illegal and it's not "disagreeing". It's discriminating.


Also it's quite rich you talk about job and business being threatened. You know who risks to be fired or to lose customers if someone decides that they "disagree" with their sexual preferences? That's right, the LGBT crowd.


Honestly you couldn't have chosen a worse argument to try to defend your opinion. Just accept th fact that such an opinion belongs to another time and that there is no rationale to support it any longer today. No one asks anyone to agree with the LGBT lifestyle, only to treat them like what they are : normal people who just like something you don't.

By constantly trying to tie together these two very different things (refusing their lifestyle - refusing to interact with them) you only illustrate furthermore how terrible such an opinion is. It would be better for you if you'd just stop talking about this all.

a reply to: Bluesma

A simple I apologize for calling you a liar would suffice (which you did - no matter how you want to explain it away). This is what gentle people do. Always the long way around - isn't it?

You know, I was going to just say: I seriously doubt he called you a Nazi . Now wish I had. But, then - I wasn't sure - so I went back and saw the bit in the earlier post. I didn't read every single line or even post of yours in the entire thread before hand because - well - you aren't exactly required reading

All you had to do was answer yes or no :-)

You take so much offense I see - now I'm reading back through this thread. I'll either choose my words more carefully in the future, or avoid this nonsense altogether

Oh, the perils of trying to communicate in a thread at ATS - Woe is me

:-)

a reply to: Bluesma

My own husband was against gay people adopting children, for example, and I eventually got him to change his mind.
It took time, it took talking, letting it rest, bringing it up again another time, working through his thoughts, having him meet my stepdads lifelong gay friend I grew up around, who raised his daughter with his companion (and she turned out more balanced than most kids my age).

But I got him to change his mind. He actually got into a discussion with his brother one day on the subject, and I got to hear him playing the role I had previously.

Why did you go to the trouble do you think? Same as your cousin - you aren't gay

Let the baker be faced with the communities judgement as they are getting used to this.

This is exactly what happened. Not unlike France (which, I realize is so much more tolerant and civilized than we are here in the States) people have been working on this for decades. Decades... Until - inevitably - it became a matter of law

Because he's retired, he's bored, and he wants to be seen as a social justice warrior that has worth to the society. He is not gay, by the way, so it is also a way fo screaming out "Hey! I am not prejudiced!"

KInda like my mom bragging in the '70's that she slept with a black man. Trying to prove to self through others.

Interesting. And - wow. So, he would have to be gay in order for his opinion to matter? Being bored, he's just doing this as a hobby?

I'm not close to being retired - and I'm not bored. I'm also not gay. How do you explain me?

I think I see it more as a stubborn refusal to actually consider what I am saying because it is doesn't fit in the "white" side, nor the "black" side (not speaking of skin color, just of polarity in general).

Of course you do :-) I'm guessing you don't see the irony here... Golly I wish I lived in France

Yeah, I noticed. People will put up all kinds of responses to get you to shut up. I'm simply refusing. You have the right to continue trying though, I do not say otherwise.

You see Bluesma - what I wanted...was the exact opposite of you shutting up. I wanted a discussion

Seriously

originally posted by: sycomix
a reply to: TrueBrit

Yep, just somethings nobody wants to see in public. They would be the ones giving the others a bad rep. Maybe people would be less weirded by them in general.

I bet you are not as annoyed about heterosexual nudity which is always shoved down everyone's throat, from TV to magazines, in adverts and on billboards. And no gay people find it necessary to start a thread about it. So where is the difference?

originally posted by: Hecate666

originally posted by: sycomix
a reply to: TrueBrit

Yep, just somethings nobody wants to see in public. They would be the ones giving the others a bad rep. Maybe people would be less weirded by them in general.

I bet you are not as annoyed about heterosexual nudity which is always shoved down everyone's throat, from TV to magazines, in adverts and on billboards. And no gay people find it necessary to start a thread about it. So where is the difference?

Im also willing to bet that he would have no problem with two gorgeous female lesbians either. No one ever mentions the pretty lesbians. Hypocrisy eh?

I fully support gorgeous lesbians and their right to adopt me.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma
Why did you go to the trouble do you think? Same as your cousin - you aren't gay

Because I truly believe that gay people can provide a good environment for raising children, even if there is not a male and female.
He probably does too.
But you asked why he was doing it in the way I described- going out and insulting and threatening people with hostility.

Interesting. And - wow. So, he would have to be gay in order for his opinion to matter? Being bored, he's just doing this as a hobby?

What?? His opinion doesn't matter? Where did you get that? His opinion is the same as mine, on LGBT issues and rights.
It is his actions that I don't agree with. I still acknowledge his right to do them- he has the right to do whatever he wants, verbally. But my objection is that it is counter-productive to our shared concerns.

I'm not close to being retired - and I'm not bored. I'm also not gay. How do you explain me?

I have no idea what you mean by "explain you". Are you threatening and insulting people too?
I don't know enough about you to explain why you would do such a thing. People can have different reasons for doing exactly the same act.

I'm guessing you don't see the irony here... Golly I wish I lived in France

You are correct. I don't see the irony here. Feel free to try to explain it to me, I will try my best to understand.

You wish you lived in France because people aren't as much into drama here, and the media is less hyped?
There are lots of other things about that you might not like so much, it might be a mistake to make a judgement like that based upon only one aspect...

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma

A simple I apologize for calling you a liar would suffice (which you did - no matter how you want to explain it away).
:-)

Okay, this is enough. Never mind, I am not sorry.

I did NOT call you a liar.

I won't bother copying and pasting my post, you can look for yourself.
I ate a vegetable today- does that make me a vegetarian???
I have kissed a girl before, does that make me a lesbian??
I have danced before does that make me a dancer??

I have also been dishonest before, and I am not a liar!
People can do things without meaning to, without being fully of conscious of all it's implications, people can make mistakes, people can do things occasionally- that does not make up who and what they are!

I apologized, and you don't accept it. You don't feel sorry for being unclear, so I no longer feel sorry for misunderstanding your meaning. Now I suspect it was intentional.

a reply to: Bluesma

Our words mean things Bluesma. Pretending only goes so far

Anyhow - now this:
a reply to: Bluesma

But you asked why he was doing it in the way I described- going out and insulting and threatening people with hostility.

Let's try to be a bit more precise from now on. I asked:
I wonder why your cousin feels this need to try and win your support? Is he just needy? Are all LGBTQ rights activists beyond being useful or necessary? Can we just lay all this to rest - enough with the pleading?

Later, I thought it was interesting that you worked so hard to get your husband to come around to your way of thinking

I can't argue about your cousins methods - because I can't read them for myself. It's his intent I was actually trying to discuss - it's no different from yours

When I wondered about it - the why of it all, I noted that you reduced his involvement in all this to being retired, bored - and needing some kind of special SJW status

His point isn't lost on me however - unless it really truly is lost in translation: If we fully functioning, concerned and freedom loving members of society don't stand up for those that are being denied equal rights - we are no better than those that let the Nazis have their way

It is a little drama queen to say it. Is it insulting? Definitely. Is it hurtful? Well - if it is - I think it might be important for us all to wonder why

There's a very obvious effort underway right now in Europe and the United States to minimize the plight of others, and to pretend that they're complaining unnecessarily

I don't mind getting under people's skin. If it gets people talking and thinking - it's all good

I'm not gay, black, native American, Muslim, Christian ...I am not a lot of things. But, I'd like to think that I'm like a lot of people that feel obligated to speak up and out when they can see that something isn't right. You do too Bluesma - the only difference between you and me is you seem to be annoyed when it doesn't come from you, or you don't approve of the tone

Which - is fair. You are right to call it as you see it. Same as me

:-)

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma

How was that dishonest?

To my answer "I already explained that" you wrote:

Yes - I read that. This is why I asked. If he actually called you - Bluesma - a Nazi? That would be wrong

You already read that, you already knew the answer to the question, you were not curious.

The dishonesty was probably not the kind of pre-planned, thought out deliberate lie, I assumed it was simply sort of clumsy, using a figure of speech by habit. A lot of dishonesty goes on by all of us that is unintentional- that doe snot make us all liars.

You said something that was not true, that you knew was not true. I call that dishonesty.

Take offense at that if you choose, I was right, I made no mistake. I don't ask you to apologize, and I am only sorry I did.
It was one of those american style attempts to show good will and care for the other.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma

Let's try to be a bit more precise from now on. I asked:
I wonder why your cousin feels this need to try and win your support? Is he just needy? Are all LGBTQ rights activists beyond being useful or necessary? Can we just lay all this to rest - enough with the pleading?

Later, I thought it was interesting that you worked so hard to get your husband to come around to your way of thinking

I can't argue about your cousins methods - because I can't read them for myself. It's his intent I was actually trying to discuss - it's no different from yours

When I wondered about it - the why of it all, I noted that you reduced his involvement in all this to being retired, bored - and needing some kind of special SJW status

All I EVER brought into the discussion, with this example, was a focus on methods being used.
I reduced his actions that day, those specific methods, as being a counter-productive attempt at getting people to join his efforts- he went overboard, got over excited and lost sight of the goal. I think that lack of thought was due to his getting a bit carried away in his focus on what he is ,
and losing sight of what he is doing.

(important nuance there)

I am sure his concern is real, but so his pressing need to have some sort of role or character in relation to others and society. He forgot, in his fervor, that sometimes people are active, but not in a very loud, obvious and public way (some resistance movements are behind the scenes of public display).

He forgot that sometimes people are incapable of doing much, because they are young, or handicapped (like my sister).

He forgot that part of making it possible for some to be active, others must be active in different areas (like someone must be working a job, to pay for his retirement, so he can live and do activist things; in war, some people must stay at home to care for young, produce food and materials...).

Polarized black and white thought, good guys and bad guys, are often what happens when someone goes overboard.

His point isn't lost on me however - unless it really truly is lost in translation: If we fully functioning, concerned and freedom loving members of society don't stand up for those that are being denied equal rights - we are no better than those that let the Nazis have their way

It is a little drama queen to say it. Is it insulting? Definitely. Is it hurtful? Well - if it is - I think it might be important for us all to wonder why

Then we simply disagree on this point. I see many more possibilities. I think it is a mistake to make a systematic assumption that if someone is not at your event, they are a passive person letting evil rule the world. I think it is short sighted, polarized black-white, good guy/bad guy thinking, which fails to acknowledge many more possibilities.

There's a very obvious effort underway right now in Europe and the United States to minimize the plight of others, and to pretend that they're complaining unnecessarily

I don't know about that. I have only seen evidence of that happening in Europe from this site, specifically in Sweden?
Here, it is just not an issue anymore. It was debated at first, and now everyone is just dealing with it.
We suddenly have a ton of immigrants in our town, they have all been put up here, it is interesting to see so many blacks where there wasn't any before... but they are all polite, they are starting no trouble, I haven't heard of any of them being a problem. I haven't heard any complaints, we're just adapting to the new state of our town.

I brought to this discussion a very pragmatic point- be hostile and run into groups of people with threats if they don't join you in an action is a bad idea for your cause.

It is exactly like a Christian that might say to another christian- "you know, standing on that corner yelling at people that they are all the spawn of the devil and are going to burn in hell is NOT helping us get people to join our church."

It's just counter productive, a bad choice. But use it if you really believe it will inspire and attract people to join you.
But don't act surprised if some of them balk and get defensive instead. That is a very common human behavior to be expected.

a reply to: Bluesma

We're off topic. I think you protest a bit too much

I came to this thread late, but got here yesterday because I was following a friend's posts. One of the first things I saw on that last page was this

I wanted to know if someone had actually called you a Nazi or not. I skimmed for Nazis. Yes - I read that post. No, I couldn't tell from that post. So I asked

Now - If you want to reply to my last post - that's up to you

Otherwise - just don't you worry - we won't be speaking again

ETA: Sorry Bluesma - I can see you already did. Gotta be honest - no longer interested

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Great.

Since you were not at all grasping that my participation here and my focus was not on intent, but on method of persuasion, we were never communicating at all. Your assumption that I do not share his concern for that cause, was ignoring my repeated statements that you were mistaken and misunderstanding.

You got carried away defending LGBT rights to me, and actually made a lot of insulting accusations along the way, which I chose to overlook.

Still now, you have not dared to say, oh wait, I see, I misunderstood you. I apologize.

That's what I do when I make a mistake. That's just me I guess.

Lots of sperging INTT it seems

a reply to: jasminnne

If your opinion is bigoted and hurtful, then just keep it to yourself...its that simple

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes


If someone's job or business is threatened, because they don't agree, I'd call the person threatening the "ass". Maybe that's just me. No one that knows me has ever called me judgmental, however, and that includes a lot of people, with a lot of different ideas, practices, and beliefs. I can respect that we don't all agree. It would be nice if the group shouting "tolerance" all the time could be so themselves.

What you call "business is threatened" is actually "discrimination to people you just don't agree with". The ASS is the bigot.

keep the hate talk to your own home and when you go out in public just don't be hateful and you shouldn't get sued

originally posted by: Hecate666

originally posted by: sycomix
a reply to: TrueBrit

Yep, just somethings nobody wants to see in public. They would be the ones giving the others a bad rep. Maybe people would be less weirded by them in general.

I bet you are not as annoyed about heterosexual nudity which is always shoved down everyone's throat, from TV to magazines, in adverts and on billboards. And no gay people find it necessary to start a thread about it. So where is the difference?

Every bit as bothered by it, you want to strut around like that do so at a nude beach or someplace appropriate to this behavior. Down town urban and suburban centers are not the place for that.

Ohh and as far as on TV goes, you do have a remote, you can change the channel.