Rome is burning, the Emperor is playing his fiddle and censorship

a reply to: ShadowsOfEridu

South Africa went from a first world nation colonized and created by white people in a land that was unpopulated,

That has always been the problem with colonization.

The invaders never think of the indigenous people as people. Therefore they feel justified in seeing the place as underpopulated and theirs for the taking.

Colonial theft is the earmark of colonization.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: ShadowsOfEridu

South Africa went from a first world nation colonized and created by white people in a land that was unpopulated,

That has always been the problem with colonization.

The invaders never think of the indigenous people as people. Therefore they feel justified in seeing the place as underpopulated and theirs for the taking.

Colonial theft is the earmark of colonization.

There were NO indigenous people. South Africa was unpopulated. Nothing to steal when there's no one living there. The blacks migrated from the north after the Boers established their nation. Get your facts straight.

a reply to: ShadowsOfEridu

There were NO indigenous people. South Africa was unpopulated. Nothing to steal when there's no one living there. The blacks migrated from the north after the Boers established their nation. Get your facts straight.

Please educate me. Where did you find this information that South Africa was unpopulated?

In what year did the Boers migrate to this barren land?

It's definitely not pc to say but I say if our ancestors took the land then unless the indigenous has the military power to oppose then they have no rights or claims to the land they were unable to defend.
Name one place where the indigenous people didn't have to fight to remain sovereign.
We are a violent species who's biggest empires are forged in conquest.

The worst though is the censorship and sense of intimidation.

Never sure what one can still say on social media.
Fines in the hundreds of thousands for whites happening (not sure how they think anyone can pay this) for simply making a bad metaphor, or robust yet cogent arguments about history.
Meanwhile those who call for open violence and genocide against whites are ignored.
The state media turns the vilification of the white minority into daily news.
But it's not exactly distracting from the ANC disaster, or daily talk of dispossessing white property, although SA long belongs to the majority.

Never mind the over 20 schools that were burnt down, and the untold damages to universities.
All that to create sloganeering automatons, sprouting dated and provably disastrous socialist theories, who are so offended the whole time and entitled that they can't even make it as medical students with grants in Cuba.

They may censor us locally (or rather blow-up a minor offense to astounding headline proportions), but boy are they gonna have a rude awakening when they hear what the rest of the world thinks about all this.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
Please educate me. Where did you find this information that South Africa was unpopulated?

In what year did the Boers migrate to this barren land?

It's not entirely true that South Africa was unpopulated. But it is true that most of those that claim that white people "stole" South Africa forget that they "stole" South Africa just as much as the white colonials.

The only people that has "always" been in South Africa are the San and Khoikhoi people, now almost extinct.

All the other - Zulus, Xhosas, Sothos, Tswanas, Pedis, etc. came from Western and Northern Africa between the 13th and 15th centuries, right before the European Colonialists arrived to join the party (1652).

For more (or not that much) information see the Bantu expansion

This tongue in the cheek ad is spot on:



But that's getting besides the point. This isn't a black or a white issue. It's a political issue.

a reply to: Gemwolf

But that's getting besides the point. This isn't a black or a white issue. It's a political issue.

I agree with you. It never is just that simple.

Yet it is always the issue that is brought up.

Especially from those that can hide in anonymity on the Internet.

Not that it upsets me. If I am in a den of serpents, I prefer to be around the ones that rattle.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Well said, especially for epochs in colonial history.

However SA is quite complex, and it has various population groups.

The aboriginal population were the San (Bushman) hunter-gatherers - apparently the oldest genetic line on earth.
Then came the Khoi (Hottentots), or herders.
Together the two related nomadic peoples are called the Khoisan.
The Bantu (Nguni and Sotho-speaking tribes) moved down from West and central Africa from the Iron Age.
They were agriculturalists, who colonized the fertile lands of the Khoisan nations along the Eastern seaboard.
They didn't move into the winter-rainfall regions of the Cape though, which was detrimental to their crops.

Under Dutch and English colonization settlers gradually took the land from the Khoisan, who were rapidly detribalized, and mixed populations grew.

The black agricultural tribes however received reserves, and under apartheid there were attempts to make them independent states.
The gold and diamond-mining hubs however remained under colonial control (and the British took that land also from the Boer people in two genocidal wars), and it created a migrant labor system.

So it's not fair to say there were no indigenous people.
However, much of the interior and Western regions of SA are essentially thirst-lands, with little water.
Most of the indigenous tribes lived along the East, and crushing inter-tribal wars started by Shaka (which reverberated all the way to Tanzania) in the 19th century also cleared much of the land.
There was mass-starvation and cannibalism, and many little clans and tribes reformed into bigger nations (like the Basothos).

I don't have the books with me now. but the entire black population of British southern Africa (including South Africa, Botswana, Lesotho, Swaziland, Zimbabwe and Zambia) was about 3.5 million around 1905.

In 1994 the black population of South Africa alone was over 40 million (not counting the 4 million whites, coloreds and Indians).

Except for the Khoisan hunter-gathers there was no real "holocaust" as such.
And the Khoisan do survive and are undergoing a bit of an identity resurgence.
The whites kept the central economic hub and intensively farmed the land, but there were reserves and land-rights for individual tribes.
That's not to say that things were fair, equal or ideal.
From the 1970's SA was plunged into the Cold War, and the Marxists (mainly the ANC) took over the struggle for liberation.
They also had gulags across the border (for example Pango and Quatro camps) and fought rival black factions, like Inkatha.

To make a long story short there were indigenous people when whites came here, but to say they occupied all the land from 1822 when whites trekked into Natal and the interior is also wrong.
Well, none off the current whites stole the land anyway, and there's thousands of cheap farms up for sale.
Our commercial farmers are dwindling, the state is sitting with a lot of land, and sizable portions of redistributed land were simply stripped and left fallow, with little help from government to aid black farmers.
Former tribal reserves are abandoned for urbanization.

So it's one thing to use the land as an emotive and rhetorical issue, and quite another to make sure it actually supports all our people economically, and puts food on our tables.

a reply to: halfoldman

I feel so bad for you guys/gals, y'all are hard workers, and quite patriotic (everyone I met) I think you all should just move to the U.S you are our type of people, and escape that hell hole that from everyone I talk to is committing a white genocide.

a reply to: Gemwolf

And this is why I got the f### out of there in 1990. Magnus an I used to have arguments about this kinda crap but the government was being extorted by the IMF and the UN, Nicky Oppenheimer didn't help much either (waves) along with his bought man deKlerk.

You can't give corrupt, uncivilized and uneducated petty despots rule of a first world nation (it was) and expect a good outcome. Allowing the ANC to come to power just hastened the downfall of what was once an incredible nation. I wish I was younger and they'd bring me back and a few dozen of my friends to clean up this mess. But I am old now, mine time is passed.

When I was there, all of our systems worked beautifully. We never had rolling brownouts, or bad roads, or sh#ty water, or backed up sewage systems, etc. In 1990 I told Magnus and a number of officers, 20 years if you give the jewel of Africa to the ANC, 20 years to become undone.

Cheers - Dave

a reply to: TechniXcality

All that being said, on a daily basis, if you can make a living or find financial support (a daily problem for all race groups, the glass ceiling notwithstanding), SA is still a good place to live.

Whether it's a seminar or the gym locker-room, I'm always blown away by the generosity and warmness of my fellow black citizens.
You immediately have an outstretched hand and feel welcome.
Unlike some of my fellow whites, where I must say you first have to go through a whole process before we may speak, let alone be friends.
It's good people and a good culture.

The political stuff happening is not good.
But then again we're also before an election in August, and things are at a fever-pitch.
It should be taken into account.
Just saying, we shouldn't always use politics or politicians as the yardstick for the worth of our people.
Most South Africans are remarkable people.

But what's happening regarding censorship by the state is alarming.

a reply to: Gemwolf

You truly needed to add nothing to adorn the pictures with pretty words. They spoke in terabytes.

If you can make it to the Mile High city of Denver Colorado....you've got a place to stay.

a reply to: halfoldman

The aboriginal population were the San (Bushman) hunter-gatherers - apparently the oldest genetic line on earth. Then came the Khoi (Hottentots), or herders. Together the two related nomadic peoples are called the Khoisan.

Under Dutch and English colonization settlers gradually took the land from the Khoisan, who were rapidly detribalized, and mixed populations grew.

Thank you for the information.

All I know is what I have been told through historical research. Once I trusted that information to be correct. Now I am not so trusting. But what you posted is what I also learned, so I took exception to the statement that the land was unpopulated when the colonialist arrived in South Africa.

Of course history does teach that to the victor goes the spoils, and a place usually becomes colonized through genocide or assimilation. Most of the time by a little of both.

None of us are without blemish. I would hate for anyone to be punished or blamed, for my mistakes or actions. Now, or in the future. I think it is ridiculous to blame anyone for the actions of their ancestors.

It is just that I have noticed an increase in those espousing hatred and division. ATS used to be better than this. I annoys me that we are allowing this site to be invaded and infested.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Well, there's a lot of polemics around SA.
After all, we're still officially classed according to the apartheid-era's racial categories.
One person's invective may simply be another person's daily in-group discourse or experience.
And it's not just white vs. black.
There's all kinds of racial dynamics, tribalism, xenophobia and gender issues.

A lot of people also come from a bad day, experience, or general outrage.

It's all being fumed by our polytricks.

But its different positions, I don't think it's really intended "infection" or so, and some commentators may not even be from SA, and they might have read some blog and gotten the wrong information.

But I think we all come from a bit of painful history in SA.
We can speak from the personal, but we shouldn't let divide and rule steal our humanity.

I don't think we've ever really recovered from the Cold War, and trying to mold soldiers and militarize our society this way or that way.
And we were an international play-thing, or football.
Various outside forces always profited and interfered; globally since the Dutch East India Company.

But sometimes when things are complex people follow the simplest line of argument.
That happens on lots of threads.
Not to worry.

I thought it was Detroit..... or Chicago...... or Atlanta....... or Philly...... or maybe it is all of them.
My White Male Guilt is in full effect because I know, that some how, some way...... it's whiteys fault

a reply to: Gemwolf

Great post!

And people wonder why I am against all of this democratic socialism nonsense.

Good luck!

Breaks my heart to read, SA was always a place I wanted to visit...

I understand not wanting to leave your home, but if your concerned about things taking a further turn for the worse... you should lay the groundwork for getting yourself and any family you can out of the danger zone. You dont want to have to do that when possibly millions are trying to bail at the last minute also.

I wish you the best, and hope you make it through your countries trials in as good a situation as possible.

a reply to: Winstonian

You can still visit SA.

These things are usually very regional and not on the tourist track.

A much more insidious problem is urban crime, but from documentaries on other global cities it seems we're not unique.

Perhaps coming from the Cape Province I'm being provincial, but despite the scale of the destruction, we've seen worse.
And still thousands of tourists came and went unharmed.
Heck, we had a global FIFA Football Word-Cup in 2010, virtually without incident.

Remember the xenophobia in 2008, when the UN had to build refugee camps?
Or when the Cape Winelands burnt in 2012 (another ANC functionalist ruse)?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It hardly bothered the tourists.
What did damage it badly recently was the ANC policy of demanding birth certificates from both parents for kids entering the country, but that's apparently been changed again.

Sometimes tourists are murdered, although I'm not sure it's worse than other countries, even Australia.
But if you stick with a good plan or company, you can have the affordable and scenic holiday of a lifetime.

how hard is it to get a gun there? I mean if you have two legs and are not an Olympic sprinter

a reply to: thinline

Getting a firearm license is actually quite hard, and there's been all kinds of delays.

It might be quicker if you work in a security industry where it's required.

However, actually acquiring a gun in SA is fairly cheap and easy, from what I hear.