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Probable Cause is Dead

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posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 01:51 AM
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a reply to: Arizonaguy

No. He didn't.
But the dissent did raise that point.


Dissent doesn't count. In that case or this.

edit on 6/21/2016 by Phage because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 02:22 AM
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a reply to: diggindirt




Sorry but I don't see a slope, just a cliff that the Black-Robed Tribe just took us over.



If you follow due process, sometimes...the most disgusting of crimes goes unpunished. Criminals often use this loop hole to escape the punishment. And they dont even have to be smart about it...they can just hire a good lawyer.

On the other hand, removing probable cause from the equation, invites misuse and corruption among cops. And lastly...it violates your precious rights.

Maybe it's just me.,..but the issue is not clear cut with me.



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 04:53 AM
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a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Freedom isn't free, the price we are expected to pay is that sometimes ugly things happen and sometimes it goes unpunished. This is a huge step toward a Police State, I think our resident cops would agree. This is not a power you want Law Enforcement to have, the potential for abuse is way too high.
edit on 6/21/2016 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 04:57 AM
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a reply to: Kali74




Freedom isn't free, the price we are expected to pay is that sometimes ugly things happen and sometimes it goes unpunished.


It's all well and dandy on paper...until you're the one that has to pay that price. Following the logic...one might say..."putting a few innocents in jail for the sake of not letting dangerous criminals out" can also be that price.

Why is letting a murderer go free so he can maybe commit mass murder, a lesser price to pay then locking up an innocent guy ?



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 06:03 AM
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a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

you would know thw answer to your question if that innocent person that was locked up for life was you.. It is easy to think about it as some other person being locked up to make you feel safe.. How would you feel if you lost your freedom and you know you were innocent.. would you pay that price?



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 06:34 AM
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a reply to: eisegesis

This obituary is some years late by now.

Probable cause died when mass surveillance initiatives began in the late 90's. Everything we are seeing from the legislature since that time, has merely been an effort to legitimise illegal activity on the part of western governments, in direct contravention of the foundations of their due process.

Ergo, outrage is understandable, but shock and panic are not. This has been going on for nearly two decades already.



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 06:36 AM
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a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Because any person worthy of living in a society which guarantees his or her freedoms, should be more willing to die than they are to see an innocent suffer.

That is the true price of Liberty.



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 06:49 AM
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*sighs*

So we have a congressman saying due process is a problem, and now the supreme court agrees in a way...

I dont know what to say... I used to joke about the death knell of our country in my lifetime... didnt think I would actually see it.

I think I am going to log out and go outside for a long walk and a stiff shot of whiskey.



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 10:50 AM
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So this officer pulled this fellow over, for NO reason, but got lucky?

Isn't that illegal?

Well except for like mentioned above, my wonderful state, that can do it under the premise of looking for drunk drivers.

Death by a thousand cuts, our rights as citizens.



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 11:31 AM
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originally posted by: chiefsmom
So this officer pulled this fellow over, for NO reason, but got lucky?

Isn't that illegal?


It used to be. What the case said basically, is if the cops find evidence of a crime which their warrant doesn't cover they can use that evidence to charge you with that crime. Basically, there's no longer a standard for obtaining evidence legally, they can get it by whatever means they want.



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 12:02 PM
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a reply to: Orionhunter88

Its not about my safety...but the community. Im looking at the bigger picture then one man's troubles.

Im not saying its a perfect angle for the individuals...here and there...that might be wrongly accused...but let's be honest...when compared to rightly imprissoned...surely they are an overwhelming minority.

Its like when you guys tell me that even if vaccines do cause an ocassional problem...herd is what ultimatelly matters. Few lives ruined...meh. 99 % is still better for it...so its acceptable.

So if a killer goes free...because of due process...you may have saved some poor guy down the road...but you have released a killer who will also possibly take another life...and then that life doesnt matter again.

Anyway...im the guy that would just end Breivik.. not buy him ps4 games.

There are many times due process makes a mockery of justice. But the law...is satisfied.



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 12:13 PM
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originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Because any person worthy of living in a society which guarantees his or her freedoms, should be more willing to die than they are to see an innocent suffer.

That is the true price of Liberty.



Innocent suffer daily...by the hands of the just and the liberated. That song is just a whisper. An idea.

No offence man.



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 12:36 PM
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a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

No offence taken! You tell it how you see it and I appreciate it.

And you are absolutely right. Innocent people do suffer, all the time, and in a myriad of ways. Appeasing that situation however, will do nothing to solve it.

That is why it is my determination that only a strong will on the part of the people can gently force change in these things, so that eventually, self interest and self preservation will be considered only as a distant second to civic responsibility, when it comes to protecting innocent people from predatory persons, organisations, and corporations.

Solidarity between people will be shown to have a greater value than the GDP of this planet, assuming it ever gets to flourish.



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 02:10 PM
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originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly
Its not about my safety...but the community. Im looking at the bigger picture then one man's troubles.

Im not saying its a perfect angle for the individuals...here and there...that might be wrongly accused...but let's be honest...when compared to rightly imprissoned...surely they are an overwhelming minority.

Its like when you guys tell me that even if vaccines do cause an ocassional problem...herd is what ultimatelly matters. Few lives ruined...meh. 99 % is still better for it...so its acceptable.

So if a killer goes free...because of due process...you may have saved some poor guy down the road...but you have released a killer who will also possibly take another life...and then that life doesnt matter again.

Anyway...im the guy that would just end Breivik.. not buy him ps4 games.

There are many times due process makes a mockery of justice. But the law...is satisfied.


Let me provide you with a counter argument. Without due process the government can merely suspect someone of a crime and lock them up. It is wide open to abuse and with high prosecution rates demanded by the public there is a lot of pressure on the justice system to find people to lock up. Imagine for a moment a world where the government, law enforcement, etc... suspect someone to be guilty of a crime, perhaps you buy several bags of ammonium nitrate which is a legitimate but potentially suspicious activity.

In the name of public safety, the action to take here is to arrest the person. Cause them to lose their home, their job, possibly become estranged from their family, and put them in a building where they start networking with a bunch of real criminals. If this person was truly innocent they can now become bitter and learn how to lash out at the system when they're released. In our quest to find a criminal we end up creating one... all while a person took a completely legal action.

There is a reason warrants require specifying the evidence that needs to be obtained, it's so that we don't get a KGB like force that can inspect a home for any infractions and arrest people for items rather than observed actions. Removing probable cause eliminates that. Yes, it means an occasional criminal escapes punishment but it also keeps everyone safe from a runaway police state. It shouldn't be the goal of a criminal justice system to catch and punish every single criminal, because given the number of laws on the books we are all criminals in some way. Criminal justice is about bringing the ones to justice that we can find through a predefined, structured process.

The price of freedom is knowing that not every criminal is going to be caught.
edit on 21-6-2016 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 02:28 PM
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originally posted by: MarioOnTheFly
a reply to: diggindirt




Sorry but I don't see a slope, just a cliff that the Black-Robed Tribe just took us over.



If you follow due process, sometimes...the most disgusting of crimes goes unpunished. Criminals often use this loop hole to escape the punishment. And they dont even have to be smart about it...they can just hire a good lawyer.

On the other hand, removing probable cause from the equation, invites misuse and corruption among cops. And lastly...it violates your precious rights.

Maybe it's just me.,..but the issue is not clear cut with me.




I understand your point of view. However---this isn't a "loophole" in the law, this is a basic human right as outlined in the founding documents of this country---just like the right to remain silent, not be forced to give self-incriminating testimony.
We're not talking about murder and mayhem here---we're talking about a victim-less crime, possession of meth, and crimes against the state (or a city I suppose) in unpaid parking tickets. Very different from murder and mayhem to be in possession of an illegal substance. Cops who truly seek to follow the law will do what is necessary to have perps prosecuted legally, not act like criminals themselves. Those officers swore to uphold the Constitution---not to violate it in order to produce revenue for the authorities.
I am well aware, quite well aware that sometimes bad guys go free for their crimes. There is a case in my area where a murderer was allowed to get out of jail----because a cop lied on an affidavit to obtain a search warrant and the result was that evidence against him had to be tossed out. But bad guys will be bad and naturally, he violated the law again---and now resides in prison for other offenses.
Just remember that it was the US Supreme Court that ruled that a former slave was not a citizen and had no legal standing in the US. It was that same court that ruled that the imprisonment of Japanese citizens during WWII was legal, another case in which the government lied in order to get people put in interment camps. This bunch has slowly been taking the rights of citizens for years, taking citizens' right and expanding government powers. We can only hope it won't take as long to rectify these decisions as it took in the Korematsu case.



posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 09:46 PM
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These "inalienable" rights...



posted on Jun, 22 2016 @ 05:25 AM
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a reply to: TrueBrit




self interest and self preservation will be considered only as a distant second to civic responsibility


I like Star Trek too


However much I would like for your words to come through...I feel it is impossible. Considering all considerations...



posted on Jun, 22 2016 @ 05:38 AM
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a reply to: Aazadan




Let me provide you with a counter argument. Without due process the government can merely suspect someone of a crime and lock them up. It is wide open to abuse and with high prosecution rates demanded by the public there is a lot of pressure on the justice system to find people to lock up. Imagine for a moment a world where the government, law enforcement, etc... suspect someone to be guilty of a crime, perhaps you buy several bags of ammonium nitrate which is a legitimate but potentially suspicious activity.


So there is no way they just invite you for the informative conversation and you explain away everything ? You guys act like every human that's been unjustly accused has always suffered..or got executed. I personally wouldnt mind if they suspect me...arrest me...question me...and then release me and apologize for the inconvinience. I wouldnt feel my rights have been violated in any way.




Yes, it means an occasional criminal escapes punishment but it also keeps everyone safe from a runaway police state.


so what you're saying that as a citizen...you are more worried about lose cops then runaway criminals ? I find that statement troubling...and indicative of bigger problems within the society.




It shouldn't be the goal of a criminal justice system to catch and punish every single criminal


correction..that should indeed be the goal...it's just hardly attainable...because of..."due process".



posted on Jun, 22 2016 @ 05:58 AM
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This is a crap ruling...

If the person had a warrant they should have been served the warrant. The failure of the police to not serve on past warrants, only to dicover a warrant by a warrantless traffic stop is a failure of the justice system on two counts... of not serving the public, one in the failure to leave a person that flouts justice without being served at large in the community(what other laws will they break or have?) scape goating the failure of such and then extending their reach for that failure.

Several years back I woke up for work and find my side view window smashed out for my GPS... I called work said I'll be in late called the police. They sent out a forensics team they were there before the actual police to take the report by 10 minutes, found a bloody partial and Im sure the person said damned when they cut themself trying to do a quick smash and grab. The police ask the time I discovered it, when I parked it there, and then launch an investigation into me have you ever lived in this state, that state... as Im standing there in my business noose holding my tumbler full of coffee. I said you know Smith is a very common last name this might take all day... how about we stick to the crime that has actually occured the officer gave me that kinda glare but complied because I didnt want to waste another 2 hours of my morning as work was being put off for their not investigating what they were called for...

A friend a couple years ago told me any time she has gotten pulled over, its an ordeal and sometimes taken to the station, because of just name investigations... her name is flagged because there is a meth addicted prostitute that has a very very long record and she's always held for hours sometimes cuffed waiting for them to determine it isnt her even though they look nothing alike.

Yeah profiling... how much of a time waster is it when they go by someones name... let alone a random description of ethnicity? Ok time to round everyone up one by one in the community or inconvienance them one by one at any given time or moment.

Our rights means if we are not breaking any laws that the contact is consentual... if we arent then it's totally legal to ignore them, it's also totally legal to never answer or speak a single word to them... as that is concidered consent to launch into their investigations even if its simply causual conversation, they are not being friendly they are investigating and profiling already, otherwise they would not be speaking to you.

So allowing such a thing due to the failure of the law in the first place to go even further on and cover such failure with more over reach is; locks, stocks, and bollocks.




edit on 22-6-2016 by BigBrotherDarkness because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2016 @ 06:18 AM
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a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

It is easy to say it is not about your safety.. But you can only speak for yourself.. You feel like locking innocent people up makes your community safer.. again, what if you were the innoccent person being locked up? would you feel the same?
The issue i have with that logic is this ... If an innocent person is in jail, then the person who committed the crime is still in the community.. So you are worried about murderer being set free, well the community would be aware that this guy might be a murderer.. awareness is all you can ask of people.. when in the other scenerio, the person was always free.. And since people think that the person was caught, they are less safe than before because there is still a predator around that they are not aware of..
And to be honest, i believe in freedom.. And since we have an industry in this coutry that makes money from locking people in cages, i would say the number of innocent people locked up is greater than some think..
the herd will take take of itself... And we have never had a conversation about vaccines.. So i am not one of those guys you refer to.. And due process is a right.. the 5th and 14th amendments.. And if the state can not prove a case, that is not a case against due process.. It is a case for them to have better investigators and better lawyers.. Our rights are to protect the people against the state.. The laws are to protect people from each other...
edit on 22-6-2016 by Orionhunter88 because: (no reason given)



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