I Was A "Professional" 9/11 "Truther" (And I Still Am!)

originally posted by: KillerKell
1. Yes. That's what they do. Literally every single piece of wreckage was taken by the FBI.

Your source for them taking every bit of wreckage is what? You are making huge assumptions.

So here is PROOF we collected and identified the wreckage...

Where do they say they identified every single bit.... They knew it was flight 77, a 757

You really question if the Director of the FBI orders an Analysis?

Where does it say they analysed every bit? you really are confused.

And you ask if the FBI takes the wreckage? Damn right they do. Every square inch of it. Do you know what they do at Quantico? Yes, they take every bit of the wreckage. Then they reconstruct it.

Now you show your ignorance again, stop and think why they reconstruct only some planes.... and the National Transportation Safety Board reconstructs them, not the FBI.

Now the quote is that the identity of the plane was never in question. But that's completely false.

No it is not false, only conspiracy theorists who deny reality think that.

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: KillerKell
1. Yes. That's what they do. Literally every single piece of wreckage was taken by the FBI.

Your source for them taking every bit of wreckage is what? You are making huge assumptions.

So here is PROOF we collected and identified the wreckage...

Where do they say they identified every single bit.... They knew it was flight 77, a 757

You really question if the Director of the FBI orders an Analysis?

Where does it say they analysed every bit? you really are confused.

And you ask if the FBI takes the wreckage? Damn right they do. Every square inch of it. Do you know what they do at Quantico? Yes, they take every bit of the wreckage. Then they reconstruct it.

Now you show your ignorance again, stop and think why they reconstruct only some planes.... and the National Transportation Safety Board reconstructs them, not the FBI.

Now the quote is that the identity of the plane was never in question. But that's completely false.

No it is not false, only conspiracy theorists who deny reality think that.

Umm... because that's how the FBI operates. They don't leave evidence behind. What kind of amateurs do you think they are? Do you think they are some Boy Scouts stomping all over everything with no idea how to work a Crime Scene?

What did you THINK happened with all the evidence? Please, tell me. How do you think this works? I'd love to have a good laugh while hearing your idea on how it's done.

Forensic Teams, of which the FBI has, will do a complete reconstruction.

Not to mention this isn't some small time case... it was the largest Terrorist Attack on US Soil in HISTORY (or, you know, Government Cover Up).

Have you ever in your life taken part of an investigation? Or watch reports of them on TV? There are Channels dedicated to exactly that, by the way.

Look man, I'm done with you. I can't even take you serious if you don't understand the basic fundamentals of Forensics and Crime Scene Investigation, especially when in regards to 9/11.

I mean, listen to yourself.

First you say the FBI isn't ordered to do an Analysis. Now you back track off that, there is an Analysis... but you know, let's only analyze say 50% of it. That's not how it's done. If there is an Analysis, it's 100%. That's the only way it's done.

Also you confuse issues. The NTSB does NOT reconstruct in matters of National Security. As you were saw, they were asked to 'help find pieces and black boxes'. That was the request. You continue to confuse this with a regular Plane Crash. The NTSB was only a 'help' on this, Mueller only asked, as the Chair and Co-Chair said, to help find pieces.

But feel free to ignore that and assume the NTSB pieced these together like any other planes. I mean, it's only coming from the Chair and Co-Chair of the NTSB, I'm sure they have no clue how involved the NTSB was.

You keep talking about 'some planes' as well. These aren't 'some planes'. These are Planes involved in the Largest Terrorist Attack on US Soil in History. Stop treating them like any ol' plane. It gets insulting after awhile. Like this is some one running a stop sign in Mayberry or something.

originally posted by: KillerKell
Forensic Teams, of which the FBI has, will do a complete reconstruction.

You are not even aware of the reason why some aircraft are reconstructed after a crash....
Hint:- None of the 4 aircraft involved in 9/11 were reconstructed....

Or watch reports of them on TV? There are Channels dedicated to exactly that, by the way.

And the purpose of those investigations is what exactly?

if you don't understand the basic fundamentals of Forensics and Crime Scene Investigation, especially when in regards to 9/11.

You do not understand it, as you think the planes were reconstructed!

and assume the NTSB pieced these together like any other planes.

No one pieced any of these planes together, you do not even know why they do that!

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: KillerKell
Forensic Teams, of which the FBI has, will do a complete reconstruction.

You are not even aware of the reason why some aircraft are reconstructed after a crash....
Hint:- None of the 4 aircraft involved in 9/11 were reconstructed....

Or watch reports of them on TV? There are Channels dedicated to exactly that, by the way.

And the purpose of those investigations is what exactly?

if you don't understand the basic fundamentals of Forensics and Crime Scene Investigation, especially when in regards to 9/11.

You do not understand it, as you think the planes were reconstructed!

and assume the NTSB pieced these together like any other planes.

No one pieced any of these planes together, you do not even know why they do that!

They absolutely reconstruct what they have, as it goes into part of verifying and citing the Evidence. This includes all pieces being Cataloged.

So now you think they don't reconstruct the pieces they have to the best of their ability in an attempt to Catalog and Record Evidence.

Wow. Holy # even.

Do you think they do... like... anything? At all?

They just show up, order coffee and donuts, and call it a day? How do you think these things are done? Please, I really want to know how you envisioned all this happened.

If you don't think Forensic Teams took the Evidence available and pieced together what they could, verified and Cataloged... then you have no clue at all what they do.

I'm literally shocked by you. Shocked.

I guess ol' Barney Fife just rolled up, took a picture and called the Investigation done. Cool story.

I mean I'm open to some Government being corrupt, but if you don't think these guys are at least Professional... I don't know what to tell you.

You show a complete lack knowledge in regards to Crime Scene Investigation and Forensics.

By the way, how do you think they do an Analysis without doing a Reconstruction?

It's part of the process. It's sort of REQUIRED. Can't really have the Analysis without it. It's sort of why they take the time to get the Evidence in the first place.

originally posted by: KillerKell
They absolutely reconstruct what they have,

Here is a simple question for you.

Why do they only reconstruct some aircraft after a crash?

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: KillerKell
They absolutely reconstruct what they have,

Here is a simple question for you.

Why do they only reconstruct some aircraft after a crash?

1. You are asking a general question. We are talking about a very specific incidence that goes WELL beyond the average plane crash.

Some how, you keep failing to understand this.

What you need to understand is WHY these planes were reconstructed and analyzed. It was 9/11. So again, stop treating this like a 'Plane Crash'... it goes WELL beyond that.

2. I've asked you numerous 'simple questions'. Of which you never seem to answer. There's a string of them now. Like 'How do you think a Crime Scene operates?'. "How do you think an Analysis works?" "What is the object in the picture and it's actual size?" You don't do very well with these. So it's ironic you're trying to play the 'simple question' card now.

I guess you don't realize THESE Planes fall under 'National Security' though, do you? So it doesn't matter why other Planes do or do not get Reconstructed... since we aren't talking about OTHER planes. We are talking about THESE planes, and the main one we are discussing is the one that hit the Pentagon.

But nice try. Asking a question that isn't relevant to the topic. Never saw that strategy coming.

Would you mind going back and answering my simple questions now?

3. Why ANYTHING is Reconstructed, to include Planes, is because of Causation Forensics. You determine how and why something happened through use of the EVIDENCE, then reconstructing to determine 'preceding, during and following' events.

On September 11th, 2001 we didn't know WHY planes had hit. We didn't know the events leading up to them hitting. We didn't have any information other than "Planes hit the WTC and Pentagon, and a Field in Penn." In a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY. In a Terrorist Attack on US Soil.

Some how, this has lead you to believe that a proper Investigation wasn't ran and that we just skipped vital standards of operation.
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I mean, it's almost like YOU are the Conspiracy Theorist. You suggest the FBI Director doesn't call for an Analysis when a Terrorist Attack his US Soil.

You act like the FBI doesn't collect evidence or like their Forensics Teams don't exist.

If you think they are so unprofessional and incapable... why do you believe anything the Government has said about it?

To hear you tell it, they can't even do a basic Investigation. It's rather silly.

You literally suggest they would do a half-ass Analysis. You've said some of the most half-baked # I've ever heard in this Thread.

May I ask your Profession? What it is you actually DO? Because your lack of knowledge with Crime Scene Investigation and Forensics in regard to a National Security matter are baffling. You seem to think Forensics doesn't exist or something, no need to collect Evidence and put it in a Central Location. No need to Catalog. No need for a Chain of Custody. Why Verify? Who needs to do that? I mean, after all... it's only 9/11. Nothing important there.

I'm seriously asking... are you being willfully ignorant about such things?

originally posted by: KillerKell
1. You are asking a general question.

It is a very simple question, however you have just realised the answer to it, and realise it totally destroys your conspiracy theory.

What you need to understand is WHY these planes were reconstructed and analyzed.

Why do you keep making that false claim? None of the 4 planes were reconstructed....

We are talking about THESE planes, and the main one we are discussing is the one that hit the Pentagon.

Oh dear, I was wrong, you still have no clue at all as to why only some planes are reconstructed!

On September 11th, 2001 we didn't know WHY planes had hit.

Yes we did, actually. Hint:-
There was nothing wrong with any of the 4 planes!

Some how, this has lead you to believe that a proper Investigation wasn't ran

More untruths from you, a proper investigation was conducted, and reconstructing those 4 planes was never going to be a part of that investigation, due to the reason planes are reconstructed.

Are you being willfully ignorant about why only some planes are reconstructed?
It is as if you do not know the reason why only some planes are reconstructed.
Oh........

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: KillerKell
1. You are asking a general question.

It is a very simple question, however you have just realised the answer to it, and realise it totally destroys your conspiracy theory.

What you need to understand is WHY these planes were reconstructed and analyzed.

Why do you keep making that false claim? None of the 4 planes were reconstructed....

We are talking about THESE planes, and the main one we are discussing is the one that hit the Pentagon.

Oh dear, I was wrong, you still have no clue at all as to why only some planes are reconstructed!

On September 11th, 2001 we didn't know WHY planes had hit.

Yes we did, actually. Hint:-
There was nothing wrong with any of the 4 planes!

Some how, this has lead you to believe that a proper Investigation wasn't ran

More untruths from you, a proper investigation was conducted, and reconstructing those 4 planes was never going to be a part of that investigation, due to the reason planes are reconstructed.

Are you being willfully ignorant about why only some planes are reconstructed?
It is as if you do not know the reason why only some planes are reconstructed.
Oh........

Wow. Seriously.

We're talking about 9/11 here.

No, before we actually investigated we had NO IDEA why they hit. None. Because when something is as big as 9/11, you DO NOT RULE ANYTHING OUT UNTIL EVIDENCE RULES IT OUT.

But hey, it's only 9/11. No big deal. I'm sure they didn't check, double check, triple check and verify. Nah.

You know how we know there was nothing wrong with the planes? Because we eliminated the other possibilities. Through an FBI analysis of the situation. Which includes the recovering of the Evidence, of which one must have in which to use to eliminate possibilities.

You seriously have no clue how this works, do you? I've asked, but you simply refuse to tell me how you think this stuff works.

All guesses and no verification, right? Do they put up a dart board and what ever you hit is what you build a case on? In your mind, how does this work? Seriously?

Rule #1 in an Investigation: Don't contaminate the Crime Scene.
Rule #2 in an Investigation: Nothing is ruled out until the EVIDENCE rules it out.

Some how you think the Local Boy Scouts investigated 9/11, and not the FBI.

Also, I answered the question. Not to just why Planes, but EVERYTHING that is reconstructed is.

What you are trying to suggest is that Planes aren't reconstructed when we know why they crashed.

What I've explained is that in a case like 9/11, no chances are taken. So those basic rules are not applied in favor of a more stringent set.

So I did answer your question. Which you ignore, then accuse me of not answering.

It would 'destroy my theory' because knowing how/why it happened would prove the identification of the Plane.

Again, you treat this like your garden variety Plane Crash... which is where you seriously err.

Now, at any time in your life... are you going to answer my questions?

a reply to: KillerKell

Um, no, we do not always reconstruct aircraft that have crashed. Five aircraft investigations that I was involved with, and not once did we reconstruct the airframes as part of the investigation. (Save the one we rebuilt completely and returned to flight status). As for Flight 77, from the moment it backed away from the Gate, until the moment it hit the Pentagon, it was tracked by human eyes and by radar. There were literally dozens of Aviation trained observers who witnessed the aircraft on its final track into the Pentagon. NONE of them identified a 727, DC-9, KA-3...NONE of them....the parts in the photos, are easily identified as belonging to a RB-211 engine, hell, the landing gear hubs found a are perfect match to those taken of N644A (Flight 77) before 9/11.

So, this is what we have...

Gate agents verifying Flight 77 was a 757.
Ground control members verifying Flight 77 was a 757.
Air Traffic Control records which show its flight path from start to end.
Tower Personnel at Reagan National who watched an American Airlines 757 slam into the Pentagon.
Military officers who watched an American Airlines 757 slam into the Pentagon.
Recovery personnel who picked up a lot of wreckage with American Airlines markings, and items that were specific to a 757 airframe.
DNA of crew and passengers witnessed to have boarded Flight 77, recovered at the Pentagon.
Photos of wreckage identified at the Pentagon as belonging to a 757.



And you have, two guys you know who never once built a Rolls Royce RB-211 engine who says that wasn't what was found........

Analysis of the landing gear found at the Pentagon...
www.aerospaceweb.org...

a reply to: cardinalfan0596

But conspiracies work by sensationalizing one picture misinterpreted and taking it out of context to dupe an army of persons wanting to show their superior intellect, they are of the highest moral authority, and to wise to be fed a false narrative. Oh the irony.

a reply to: KillerKell

What I've explained is that in a case like 9/11, no chances are taken. So those basic rules are not applied in favor of a more stringent set.

No your assumption is wrong.
You assume that because it was such a massive event they would investigate everything to a minute level.
Not true or needed.
Things you don't need to know about the planes:
Was their tire pressures normal?
Was all the lavs in working order?
Was the in flight meals tainted?

You can come up with more.

Conspiracy believers always think there is something more to the story.
In reality the story just ends.

In regards to engine parts having identification, this document makes some references:
"Examination of a Failed Fan Blade
Rolls-Royce RB211 Trent 892
Turbofan Engine
Boeing 777-300, A6-EMM"

Document link name: tr200100445_001.pdf
From: www.atsb.gov.au...&ved=0ahUKEwjF3PDI9-zNAhUDlh4KHWcUDM4QFgggMAE&usg=AFQjCNHrm3h77uDo9RxXD6RPAxGFtUVS4g&sig2=zJ3op iPmRm9fvg2-upMgaA

originally posted by: cardinalfan0596
a reply to: KillerKell

Um, no, we do not always reconstruct aircraft that have crashed. Five aircraft investigations that I was involved with, and not once did we reconstruct the airframes as part of the investigation. (Save the one we rebuilt completely and returned to flight status). As for Flight 77, from the moment it backed away from the Gate, until the moment it hit the Pentagon, it was tracked by human eyes and by radar. There were literally dozens of Aviation trained observers who witnessed the aircraft on its final track into the Pentagon. NONE of them identified a 727, DC-9, KA-3...NONE of them....the parts in the photos, are easily identified as belonging to a RB-211 engine, hell, the landing gear hubs found a are perfect match to those taken of N644A (Flight 77) before 9/11.

So, this is what we have...

Gate agents verifying Flight 77 was a 757.
Ground control members verifying Flight 77 was a 757.
Air Traffic Control records which show its flight path from start to end.
Tower Personnel at Reagan National who watched an American Airlines 757 slam into the Pentagon.
Military officers who watched an American Airlines 757 slam into the Pentagon.
Recovery personnel who picked up a lot of wreckage with American Airlines markings, and items that were specific to a 757 airframe.
DNA of crew and passengers witnessed to have boarded Flight 77, recovered at the Pentagon.
Photos of wreckage identified at the Pentagon as belonging to a 757.



And you have, two guys you know who never once built a Rolls Royce RB-211 engine who says that wasn't what was found........

Analysis of the landing gear found at the Pentagon...
www.aerospaceweb.org...

See, now this is a Straw Man. I didn't say we reconstruct every Plane Crash. In fact, I gave the reason why we don't.

But feel free to attack a point I didn't make.

The point I made is that this was 9/11, the largest Terrorist Attack on US Soil in World History. So yeah, we double-checked everything about the recovered plane parts we could.

But here is what I'll ask, again, for about the 20th time.

It's 2016. Why are these guys still showing me old sites that were only going off a photo? I asked for Evidence, and got ushered to old sites basing their claims off the photo. Why?

Why am I not instead being directed toward definitive verified facts? By know, we know what the Hub is... so where is that information? It would absolutely be part of a detailed report.

So when I ask these question, why am I not instead directed to Fact... but otherwise am directed to the same old stuff that isn't conclusive?

If I can just be pointed to that, this would have been over long ago.

originally posted by: neutronflux
In regards to engine parts having identification, this document makes some references:
"Examination of a Failed Fan Blade
Rolls-Royce RB211 Trent 892
Turbofan Engine
Boeing 777-300, A6-EMM"

Document link name: tr200100445_001.pdf
From: www.atsb.gov.au...&ved=0ahUKEwjF3PDI9-zNAhUDlh4KHWcUDM4QFgggMAE&usg=AFQjCNHrm3h77uDo9RxXD6RPAxGFtUVS4g&sig2=zJ3op iPmRm9fvg2-upMgaA

Here we go. Now we get somewhere. Where is this type of report for the pieces of evidence?

For instance cardinalfan brings great information with the Wheel, that links to a 757.

But the reason we verify ALL parts possible is to eliminate other possibilities.

For instance, can you imagine if the Landing Gear is a 757... but the Engine is for a 737? Suddenly... it doesn't make sense. Suddenly, things need to be dug into deeper.

So what I'm asking for is the conclusion of the FBI Analysis, who took these pieces an examined them. You know, the thing that would be conclusive evidence.

Not to be directed to sites from ages ago that are using Photographs for their premise when we have the actual objects. We should be so far beyond the using of the photographs to 'prove' or 'disprove' anything at this point.

Yet that's what I keep getting sent back to.

We have the Objects. The FBI did an Analysis as ordered by FBI Director Robert Mueller... there is a chain of custody for the Evidence and all the Evidence is Cataloged. Should be the easiest thing, as all the hard work has already been done, to now 'show the work'.

Don't give me the answer you came up in your head (based on Photos)... show your work.

That's what I'm asking for.

Instead, it's 2016 and I'm still getting 'estimate sizes' for Hubs from a site that got as close as a photograph.

a reply to: KillerKell

Because it's not a part failure. And just maybe they did do some part number checking. Not going to here it from conspiracists. It's so sad conspiracists would have people believe they just packed up the WTC steel and debris and flushed it. Conspiracists never convey people over saw the collection at the WTC looking for evidence. The steel and debris were sent to a staging site and separated. The smallest debris was feed through a hopper to a conveyor. Law enforcement worked to find remains, personal effects, and evidence. Conspiracists never give credit and acknowledgement to those dedicated offices that recovered almost 20,000 remains. That allowed almost half the victims at the WTC to be identified. How do you know the same care was taken at the Pentagon? If it was, the conspiracists with an agenda are not going to say squat.

originally posted by: KillerKell
Where is this type of report for the pieces of evidence?

What would be the point? We know why Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, we know who was on board, we know what type of plane it was. So why do you want a report on every scrap of Flight 77 debris?

But the reason we verify ALL parts possible is to eliminate other possibilities.

What other possibilities?

For instance, can you imagine if the Landing Gear is a 757... but the Engine is for a 737?

Now you really are babbling crap!

So what I'm asking for is the conclusion of the FBI Analysis, who took these pieces an examined them.

Why do you think they were examined, as they know what plane it was and why it hit the Pentagon. That is the reason they sometimes examine aircraft parts after a crash.

You know, the thing that would be conclusive evidence.

Like the 757 engines, wheels undercarriage etc?
Like the DNA from passengers on Flight 77?
Like personal effects from people on board Flight 77?

all the Evidence is Cataloged.

What makes you claim every bit of Flight 77 was catalogued?

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: KillerKell
Where is this type of report for the pieces of evidence?

What would be the point? We know why Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, we know who was on board, we know what type of plane it was. So why do you want a report on every scrap of Flight 77 debris?

But the reason we verify ALL parts possible is to eliminate other possibilities.

What other possibilities?

For instance, can you imagine if the Landing Gear is a 757... but the Engine is for a 737?

Now you really are babbling crap!

So what I'm asking for is the conclusion of the FBI Analysis, who took these pieces an examined them.

Why do you think they were examined, as they know what plane it was and why it hit the Pentagon. That is the reason they sometimes examine aircraft parts after a crash.

You know, the thing that would be conclusive evidence.

Like the 757 engines, wheels undercarriage etc?
Like the DNA from passengers on Flight 77?
Like personal effects from people on board Flight 77?

all the Evidence is Cataloged.

What makes you claim every bit of Flight 77 was catalogued?

See, you keep asking stupid stuff like "What makes you claim every bit of Flight 77 was catalogued?".

Because that's STANDARD OPERATING PRODCUEDURE. Do you not realize that? Do you not understand that? I've asked you this many numerous times. Do you know how an investigation works? How a Chain of Custody works?

Stop asking stupid # like this. Seriously. It makes you sound like you have zero understanding at all. EVERYTHING of Flight 77 is Evidence, ALL Evidence is collected and cataloged. STANDARD OPERATING PROCUDURE.

What the hell do you think they do with the stuff? Answer the damn question. It's direct, to you and simple. What the hell do you think is done with Evidence? Why do you think some is not collected or cataloged? What is your thought process here?

It's stupid stuff like that right there. That you keep going back to.

So I await for your portrayal of what FBI does with Evidence. Since you don't believe they collect and catalog.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: KillerKell

Because it's not a part failure. And just maybe they did do some part number checking. Not going to here it from conspiracists. It's so sad conspiracists would have people believe they just packed up the WTC steel and debris and flushed it. Conspiracists never convey people over saw the collection at the WTC looking for evidence. The steel and debris were sent to a staging site and separated. The smallest debris was feed through a hopper to a conveyor. Law enforcement worked to find remains, personal effects, and evidence. Conspiracists never give credit and acknowledgement to those dedicated offices that recovered almost 20,000 remains. That allowed almost half the victims at the WTC to be identified. How do you know the same care was taken at the Pentagon? If it was, the conspiracists with an agenda are not going to say squat.

You have me confused. I believe the FBI collects and catalogs evidence, and that they still have it. Which is why an all-inclusive report should be so simple (despite being asked for by our own Government and not supplied).

It's hellobruce that think Boy Scouts trample over a crime scene and pick and choose what to Catalog.