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For Zaphod: Powering Down After Take Off

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posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 10:17 PM
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a reply to: jacobe001

Noise abatement has been around for many years, but it's gotten stricter as engines have improved. It started in 1979, but until around the time of the CFM56, engines were so loud that there wasn't a lot of ability to quiet things the way they can today.


Section B36.5 Maximum Noise Levels
Except as provided in section B36.6 of this appendix, maximum noise levels, when determined in accordance with the noise evaluation methods of appendix A of this part, may not exceed the following:

(a) For acoustical changes to Stage 1 airplanes, regardless of the number of engines, the noise levels prescribed under §36.7(c) of this part.

(b) For any Stage 2 airplane regardless of the number of engines:

(1) Flyover: 108 EPNdB for maximum weight of 600,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 600,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 5 EPNdB; the limit is 93 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 75,000 pounds or less.

(2) Lateral and approach: 108 EPNdB for maximum weight of 600,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 600,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 2 EPNdB; the limit is 102 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 75,000 pounds or less.

(c) For any Stage 3 airplane:

(1) Flyover.

(i) For airplanes with more than 3 engines: 106 EPNdB for maximum weight of 850,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 850,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 4 EPNdB; the limit is 89 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 44,673 pounds or less;

(ii) For airplanes with 3 engines: 104 EPNdB for maximum weight of 850,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 850,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 4 EPNdB; the limit is 89 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 63,177 pounds or less; and

(iii) For airplanes with fewer than 3 engines: 101 EPNdB for maximum weight of 850,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 850,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 4 EPNdB; the limit is 89 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 106,250 pounds or less.

(2) Lateral, regardless of the number of engines: 103 EPNdB for maximum weight of 882,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 882,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 2.56 EPNdB; the limit is 94 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 77,200 pounds or less.

(3) Approach, regardless of the number of engines: 105 EPNdB for maximum weight of 617,300 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 617,300 pounds), reduce the limit by 2.33 EPNdB; the limit is 98 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 77,200 pounds or less.

(d) For any Stage 4 airplane, the flyover, lateral, and approach maximum noise levels are prescribed in Chapter 4, Paragraph 4.4, Maximum Noise Levels, and Chapter 3, Paragraph 3.4, Maximum Noise Levels, of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Annex 16, Environmental Protection, Volume I, Aircraft Noise, Third Edition, July 1993, Amendment 7, effective March 21, 2002. [Incorporated by reference, see §36.6].

Noise abatement




posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 10:41 PM
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a reply to: jacobe001

Im interested muchly in Vatsim !

Thank you



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 11:05 PM
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originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: jacobe001

Noise abatement has been around for many years, but it's gotten stricter as engines have improved. It started in 1979, but until around the time of the CFM56, engines were so loud that there wasn't a lot of ability to quiet things the way they can today.


Section B36.5 Maximum Noise Levels
Except as provided in section B36.6 of this appendix, maximum noise levels, when determined in accordance with the noise evaluation methods of appendix A of this part, may not exceed the following:

(a) For acoustical changes to Stage 1 airplanes, regardless of the number of engines, the noise levels prescribed under §36.7(c) of this part.

(b) For any Stage 2 airplane regardless of the number of engines:

(1) Flyover: 108 EPNdB for maximum weight of 600,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 600,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 5 EPNdB; the limit is 93 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 75,000 pounds or less.

(2) Lateral and approach: 108 EPNdB for maximum weight of 600,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 600,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 2 EPNdB; the limit is 102 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 75,000 pounds or less.

(c) For any Stage 3 airplane:

(1) Flyover.

(i) For airplanes with more than 3 engines: 106 EPNdB for maximum weight of 850,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 850,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 4 EPNdB; the limit is 89 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 44,673 pounds or less;

(ii) For airplanes with 3 engines: 104 EPNdB for maximum weight of 850,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 850,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 4 EPNdB; the limit is 89 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 63,177 pounds or less; and

(iii) For airplanes with fewer than 3 engines: 101 EPNdB for maximum weight of 850,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 850,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 4 EPNdB; the limit is 89 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 106,250 pounds or less.

(2) Lateral, regardless of the number of engines: 103 EPNdB for maximum weight of 882,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 882,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 2.56 EPNdB; the limit is 94 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 77,200 pounds or less.

(3) Approach, regardless of the number of engines: 105 EPNdB for maximum weight of 617,300 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 617,300 pounds), reduce the limit by 2.33 EPNdB; the limit is 98 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 77,200 pounds or less.

(d) For any Stage 4 airplane, the flyover, lateral, and approach maximum noise levels are prescribed in Chapter 4, Paragraph 4.4, Maximum Noise Levels, and Chapter 3, Paragraph 3.4, Maximum Noise Levels, of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Annex 16, Environmental Protection, Volume I, Aircraft Noise, Third Edition, July 1993, Amendment 7, effective March 21, 2002. [Incorporated by reference, see §36.6].

Noise abatement


Thanks for the detailed information
So the answer is all about noise abatement rather than engine wear

I guess that explains why they are still as loud or almost when flying over at 10,000 feet AGL

Smacks self on the head

When I get to 10,000 feet, and have the AP set, it opens up the throttle since I can go above 250 knots per FAA Regulations... The restrictions below FL 100 have all to do with noise, navigation and a side effect fuel efficiency as well...
edit on 18-6-2016 by jacobe001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 11:06 PM
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originally posted by: rigel4
a reply to: jacobe001

Im interested muchly in Vatsim !

Thank you


Glad to hear it
They are a friendly bunch



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 11:09 PM
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a reply to: jacobe001

At one point engines operating at full power would add wear and tear to them, but new engines are showing ridiculous numbers for time on wing. A CFM56-3C engine, in 2004, reached 40,728 hours and 17,504 cycles on wing without a single shop visit. In 2012, a CFM56-7B reached 50,000 hours on wing, without a shop visit. It was finally removed because of life limited parts needing replacement.



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 11:25 PM
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Then theres showing off… Bird is 45 seconds gone and they still have to shout to hear each other.

Turn it up…



edit on 18-6-2016 by intrptr because: bb code



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 11:29 PM
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a reply to: Phage

I bet Catalina Island is a scary landing, I have never landed there only by sailboat. A beautiful place!



posted on Jun, 19 2016 @ 12:57 AM
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Ok here's the deal about extra maintenance. There are time change items all over the engine that are based off TAC's or cycles of the engine. The longer the engines are at full power, or power is moved from low to high and back to low, there is a recorded TAC or cycle. Turbine engines are extremely durable, and reliable but all the parts have lifespans, the more you cycle an engine or use it in the highest setting the quicker you reach that lifespan. Also, like others have mentioned noise abatement, and fuel savings are all contributing factors. The pilots are generally not concerned about extra maintenance that they may cause, but are more concerned about the safety of the flight, and the general rules of the airport. a reply to: jacobe001



posted on Jun, 19 2016 @ 02:52 AM
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Like Zaphod said it's to reduce noise but also to try to get the best possible fuel economy. Full power uses a lot of fuel and airlines try to fly at power settings for the best fuel economy as fuel is one of their biggest costs. Full power at lower altitudes uses a huge amount of fuel in airlines as well as military jets.



posted on Jun, 19 2016 @ 02:59 AM
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originally posted by: 3danimator2014
I'm interested in Zaphods answer too.

Semi related but my absolute favourite thing on take off is the two thrust setting thing they do . First at half power for a few seconds then boom..Full throttle. I have no idea why I like this so much, but i REALLY do. I think i just like the sound of the engines in general.


This is something I've noticed as well. For some reason though I think this is a more recent practice. I definitely remember times where the pilot would go straight to full power but that's a few years ago.

I enjoy the nuances of different take offs. Our local airport runs internal flights to London with a Dash turbo prop. The transition between taxiing and takeoff is always continuous. By that I mean that flight never pauses at the beginning of the runway. Also, the acceleration feels much stronger in those smaller turbo props.

Lastly, in the last couple of years I've noticed pilots shutting down one engine directly after landing (turbo prop) and taxiing on just one prop. Fuel saving I suppose.
edit on 19-6-2016 by tinimark because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 19 2016 @ 04:36 AM
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a reply to: jacobe001

Can i askan off topic question please?

What flight sim and other software would you recommenf for me?

I have an i5 4690k
8gb of ram and gtx 750ti video card.

Windows 10, but can quickly set up Ubuntu
or an earlier Windows .

I also have steam account .. FSX on Steam is available.
Ive also never had a flight sim.

Thanks in advance

edit on Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:45:35 -0500454America/ChicagoSunday4 by rigel4 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 19 2016 @ 04:46 AM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: jacobe001
There are specific requirements for commercial (and other) aircraft inspections and maintenance. Takeoff practices don't really affect them.
www.aviation-safety-bureau.com...


Actually, depending upon the engine, the assumption in the question may be true. It is common to have certain inspection criteria required if a certain engine rpm is exceeded for a particular time period, or if a certain EPR (exhaust pressure ratio) or TIT (turbine inlet temperature) is exceeded. For example, an engine may have one rpm limit, say 103%, for continuous operation, another limit, say 106%, for 1 minute, and even a third limit for a momentary overspeed. If any limits are exceeded, an inspection may be required, or certain maintenance may have to be performed.



posted on Jun, 19 2016 @ 10:17 AM
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originally posted by: intrptr
Then theres showing off… Bird is 45 seconds gone and they still have to shout to hear each other.

Turn it up…




I had the honour of seeing this beautiful plane take off at the 1986 farnborough air show. Ill never forget that sound.



posted on Jun, 19 2016 @ 11:24 AM
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originally posted by: rigel4
a reply to: jacobe001

Can i askan off topic question please?

What flight sim and other software would you recommenf for me?

I have an i5 4690k
8gb of ram and gtx 750ti video card.

Windows 10, but can quickly set up Ubuntu
or an earlier Windows .

I also have steam account .. FSX on Steam is available.
Ive also never had a flight sim.

Thanks in advance


I would recommend FSX
Real Weather Extreme (REX) is great for the improved weather graphics and lightning plus real time weather
FS Genesis and UTX for Mesh
ORBX for Scenery Addons

I would also highly recommend you read this guide by Nick, a FSX Regular. It is a long read but well worth it
I can't recommend Windows 10 for FSX since I use Windows 7

THE FSX COMPUTER SYSTEM: THE BIBLE - BY: NickN
www.simforums.com...


Beside FSX, there is also Xplane and Prepar3d but they do not have as many third party programs as FSX does but on the other hand, they are always updating the engine unlike FSX.

For aircraft, I like the Bigger Planes like the PMDG series
There is also the VR Superbug F18E that the creator spent an ungodly amount of time into.
The amount of detail and working equipment is staggering in this plane
It took me a good deal of time and reading to go all over the working systems

Also, my favorite is the MD82 Maddog
Unlike the 747, it is a lot more hands on and can keep you busy from startup to shutdown since there is not as much automation in the older planes

www.vrsimulations.com...

Here is a great site for the best aircraft out there for fsx
fsxgetstarted.com...
edit on 19-6-2016 by jacobe001 because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-6-2016 by jacobe001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 19 2016 @ 02:30 PM
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a reply to: Quantum12

The regular landing in Juneau will make you
question the airport's design! You are less than 200 feet going through the pass, clear that then land under heavy breaking.



posted on Jun, 19 2016 @ 02:38 PM
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a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Wow, I bet that is a trip.



posted on Jun, 19 2016 @ 02:40 PM
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a reply to: jacobe001

Thank you so much for this information ..

Experience like yours is invaluable and you have given it
to me free.


I'm going to be lurking here more and more.. Nothing much to add to
you guys that no loads about aircraft.. but i am fascinated by planes and fighters.

Thanks again pal.



posted on Jun, 19 2016 @ 07:08 PM
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originally posted by: TEOTWAWKIAIFF
a reply to: Quantum12

The regular landing in Juneau will make you
question the airport's design! You are less than 200 feet going through the pass, clear that then land under heavy breaking.


I don't know who 're flying with, but they are certainly not flying the approved instrument approach procedure for JNU. The RNAV approach minimum descent altitude is 2,340 feet above sea level and 2315 feet above ground level. the pass is at 588 feet above sea level. It's a 3 degree (actually 3.08 degree glide slope, which is normal. And it's a 8,857 foot long runway, which is plenty. Now if you have to go around you had better be able to climb 400 feet per mile because there are serious mountains to the east.



posted on Jun, 20 2016 @ 12:49 PM
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a reply to: Phage

How many times did you fly in and out of HK in a storm at the old Kai Tek airport literally downtown?



posted on Jun, 20 2016 @ 03:31 PM
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originally posted by: jacobe001

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: jacobe001

Noise abatement has been around for many years, but it's gotten stricter as engines have improved. It started in 1979, but until around the time of the CFM56, engines were so loud that there wasn't a lot of ability to quiet things the way they can today.


Section B36.5 Maximum Noise Levels
Except as provided in section B36.6 of this appendix, maximum noise levels, when determined in accordance with the noise evaluation methods of appendix A of this part, may not exceed the following:

(a) For acoustical changes to Stage 1 airplanes, regardless of the number of engines, the noise levels prescribed under §36.7(c) of this part.

(b) For any Stage 2 airplane regardless of the number of engines:

(1) Flyover: 108 EPNdB for maximum weight of 600,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 600,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 5 EPNdB; the limit is 93 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 75,000 pounds or less.

(2) Lateral and approach: 108 EPNdB for maximum weight of 600,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 600,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 2 EPNdB; the limit is 102 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 75,000 pounds or less.

(c) For any Stage 3 airplane:

(1) Flyover.

(i) For airplanes with more than 3 engines: 106 EPNdB for maximum weight of 850,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 850,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 4 EPNdB; the limit is 89 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 44,673 pounds or less;

(ii) For airplanes with 3 engines: 104 EPNdB for maximum weight of 850,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 850,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 4 EPNdB; the limit is 89 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 63,177 pounds or less; and

(iii) For airplanes with fewer than 3 engines: 101 EPNdB for maximum weight of 850,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 850,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 4 EPNdB; the limit is 89 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 106,250 pounds or less.

(2) Lateral, regardless of the number of engines: 103 EPNdB for maximum weight of 882,000 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 882,000 pounds), reduce the limit by 2.56 EPNdB; the limit is 94 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 77,200 pounds or less.

(3) Approach, regardless of the number of engines: 105 EPNdB for maximum weight of 617,300 pounds or more; for each halving of maximum weight (from 617,300 pounds), reduce the limit by 2.33 EPNdB; the limit is 98 EPNdB for a maximum weight of 77,200 pounds or less.

(d) For any Stage 4 airplane, the flyover, lateral, and approach maximum noise levels are prescribed in Chapter 4, Paragraph 4.4, Maximum Noise Levels, and Chapter 3, Paragraph 3.4, Maximum Noise Levels, of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Annex 16, Environmental Protection, Volume I, Aircraft Noise, Third Edition, July 1993, Amendment 7, effective March 21, 2002. [Incorporated by reference, see §36.6].

Noise abatement


Thanks for the detailed information
So the answer is all about noise abatement rather than engine wear

I guess that explains why they are still as loud or almost when flying over at 10,000 feet AGL

Smacks self on the head

When I get to 10,000 feet, and have the AP set, it opens up the throttle since I can go above 250 knots per FAA Regulations... The restrictions below FL 100 have all to do with noise, navigation and a side effect fuel efficiency as well...


That is also part of your answer.



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