Diminishing quality of the labor pool

a reply to: DBCowboy

From my perspective you are ignoring the free market.

you want to pay $80,000 and can't find help at that price

you have 2 things you can do

you can raise the pay til you get a qualified candidate or do the work with the staff you already have (meaning you didn't need the extra help)

FREE MARKET do you disagree?

originally posted by: seasonal


Some attitudes are-screw em they are unskilled, lazy, UN-motivated so min. wage for them. Some even go so far to say lets loose the min wage. Ok but get ready to pay more for medicare, food stamps, housing costs and ect.

One only needs to look to China to see where wages would go
About a dollar an hour. Then when people can't afford to live on that, they would say live within your means
Which would entail 20 Americans sharing a room with 20 bunk beds like they do in China.

originally posted by: seasonal
a reply to: DBCowboy

From my perspective you are ignoring the free market.

you want to pay $80,000 and can't find help at that price

you have 2 things you can do

you can raise the pay til you get a qualified candidate or do the work with the staff you already have (meaning you didn't need the extra help)

FREE MARKET do you disagree?

That is the way it is supposed to work but Big Business would rather hire H1B or move the operations to some other country
I would be a millionaire if I had a dime for everytime I heard "I am not paying that much an hour"

They only love Nationalism when he comes to our military protecting their globalists interests

Would you agree to this?.

Good practice for applicants would be to have legal counsel accompany them on their job search.

Notice the ALL CAPS part.

12. Limitation of Liability - To the extent permitted by law, you, on your own behalf and on behalf of anyone claiming by or through you, waive any and all rights you have, or may have, to claim or assert a claim, suit, action or demand of any kind, nature or description, including without limitation, claims, suits, actions or demands for personal injury or death whether arising in tort, contract or otherwise, against Client or Client’s customers, agents, officers, directors, or employees, resulting from or arising directly or indirectly out of your employment with 8888, Inc. You recognize and agree that 8888, Inc provides workers’ compensation coverage for such things as on-the-job injuries or occupational diseases incurred while on assignment for 8888, Inc, and you agree to look solely to 8888, Inc and/or its insurer for damages and/or expenses for such injury, illness or other claims incurred while on assignment. In furtherance of the foregoing and in recognition that any work related injuries which might be sustained by you are covered by state Workers’ Compensation statutes, and to avoid the circumvention of such state statutes which may result from suits against the Clients of 8888, Inc based on the same injury or injuries, and to the extent permitted by law, YOU HEREBY WAIVE AND FOREVER RELEASE ANY RIGHTS YOU MIGHT HAVE to make claims or bring suit against the Client of 8888, Inc for damages based upon injuries which are covered under such Workers’ Compensation statutes. You agree to notify 8888, Inc if you believe that there are any unsafe conditions at the Client work site or facility.

a reply to: seasonal

I don't think I'm ignoring the free market at all.

I just think that people don't know what is required or don't care what is required to do a job any more.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: seasonal

I'd be more than happy to start someone out at 80K, but they have to be clean, professional, ambitious, smart, educated, and willing to work nights, weekends, and answer the phone at all hours.

My generation did more than that, we were penalized, not reward, and kicked to the curb.

Loyalty and respect are earned. A master that knocks his servant down and kicks him in the teeth, every time he tries to stand up, only really wants, the servant to lie down and die.

He is also afraid if the servant does finally make it up, he is likely to kick his arse.

a reply to: [post=20880900]DBCowboy[/post

The free market does not allow for what you or I "think". The free market is an unstoppable force that you are trying to control.

Again If you want to pay $80,000 and can't find qualified help what can you do?

Let me put it this way.

I need a cement porch removed and re poured. I have 2 quotes, one for $2,000 and one for $2,100. But I only want to pay $1,500.

I can offer the $1,500 and see what the contractors says. More than likely they will say hell no. Either I raise what I am willing to pay or I look at the same crappy porch.

And hell no is what you are hearing. So raise your pay or look at the same crappy porch. And an added side effect, the more you pay the better your applicants will be (free market).

a reply to: seasonal

Exactly. A smart employee uses leverage while negotiating pay rates

I would never apply to one company at a time I would get an offer from one company and use it as leverage for higher pay at another company and if they didn't take it I'd walk.

I just don't get this. I graduated high school with a 2.5 gpa. I then spent six years drinking, pretending I was going to community college, and stocking groceries at night. Then I moved cross country to manage a fish tank store and killed most of the fish. I was so upset with my performance, I quit. Enlisted in the Navy out of desperation. Wanted to be a firefighter. Took a test and they put me in the Nuke program as a Mechanic. Mechanics are the "dumb ones". I now make ~150k a year. If you produce, they will pay you. Even if you are an idiot like me.
ETA-The kids working now are just like the generations before. Some of them will find there niche and be successful. Capitalism will keep rolling on.

There is a corresponding diminishing quality of the employment pool.

Labor and business have always been in conflict.

A re-balancing is in order.

It'll take awhile.

...again...

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
What ?...really.....?...

What kind of schooling does one receive to only be able to write this way ?

I was taught to print obviously, but around 3rd grade when they teach cursive I liked it and stuck with it. It's just how I write now, I can print obviously if I have to but it takes a long time since I have to think about how to form each letter (which is odd since I'm obviously using print right now to write this on a computer).

Cursive on the other hand is second nature, I can write it easily, it's just not overly neat. I've never had good handwriting, and while my handwriting is better now than it was years ago it's not something I practice regularly as most writing I do is on a computer.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
From all the negative comments I've received, I have to wonder what an ideal work schedule, salary would look like to those of you that scoff at an 80K salary that requires long hours and a work ethic.

Well, 80 is low for my field (even right out of school the average is 100) but assuming it's a fair wage and that I'm in a big city.

35 hours a week, the expectation that once I leave for the day email goes off, an on call rotation between all technical people of a couple days each, 21 days vacation minimum (or unlimited with a company culture of actually approving it), setting my own hours (get stuff done but come in and leave when I want), work remote Monday and Friday, and most important of all an IP agreement that doesn't automatically claim anything I make in my off hours (like the one someone posted above does)

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: seasonal

Exactly. A smart employee uses leverage while negotiating pay rates

I would never apply to one company at a time I would get an offer from one company and use it as leverage for higher pay at another company and if they didn't take it I'd walk.

If you don't have a job this is the way to do it (getting 2 offers at once is tricky though). If you already have a job, then you can use the leverage of staying where you are and walking away from the new offer as leverage.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: seasonal

I don't think I'm ignoring the free market at all.

I just think that people don't know what is required or don't care what is required to do a job any more.

Perhaps YOU don't know what's required or don't care what's required to keep an employee any more.

You want a smart educated and loyal person. Smart people know there's value in making time for your personal life. There's also value in a boss who truly cares about your well being and has an overall positive outlook on life.

One job pays 70,000 and is a 40 hour work week. The other pays 80,000 and has a 80 hour work week. The SMART employee is going to take the 70,000 job - not only because it pays more per hour but it will also the very valuable benefit of a personal life.

The person who is going to take the 80,000 position probably has personality issues which will drag down your productivity.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: seasonal

I don't think I'm ignoring the free market at all.

I just think that people don't know what is required or don't care what is required to do a job any more.

It depends on area of course, but 80k for what you're asking seems low. Even in the town I live in now where the median income is 13k and 80k is equivalent to a 250k wage somewhere like LA, why would I ever work for you for 80 when I can work for a tech company and get the same wage without a 24/7 on call attached? If you're in a bigger city, why would I work for 80k when the typical engineering grad can get 100 right out of school?

It sounds like you can't fill the position because you're not being competitive, if it's not wage it's with terms of employment.

Lets put this in perspective, you're offering 80k for 80 hours, someone could work double minimum wage jobs (at 15/hour), work the same number of hours, and only have a small difference in take home pay.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Oh god I laughed pretty hard reading that.

a reply to: Aazadan

The real world is going to hit you like a ton of bricks.

Your over estimating the value of a technology degree in a very highly competitive market.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Aazadan

The real world is going to hit you like a ton of bricks.

Your over estimating the value of a technology degree in a very highly competitive market.

Glassdoor says otherwise, actually getting hired is a challenge for a variety of reasons (cheap insourcing, ridiculous requirements, poor schooling often times disguised as boot camps) but if you are actually good/lucky enough to win the job lottery it's quite lucrative.

Of course, salaries vary greatly by area, like I said before 100k in LA gets you about the same quality of life that 30k gets you in my current town. So DB's example of not being able to find someone for 80k lacks the appropriate context to know if it's reasonable or too low.

a reply to: AssiduousSpook

I don't see this. I live in San Diego, and at least most of the men I meet, even randomly at a pub, are put together and remarkably successful and intelligent, occasionally despite outwardly rough exteriors.

I work at a tech company, and there the threshold on IQ is even higher.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
So what I'm seeing, is if you want someone who will work overtime and on weekends, be clean, smart, educated. . .

I should start them out, start them out . . at 100K.

Oh crap, the nation is screwed.

Corner office also?

How about a secretary and a foot rub when the tootsies get tired.

80K is quite a lot of dough. $219 dollars to spend each day, every day of the year.

Just for curiosity's sake, what would you have someone like that do? What would be the job description?

I'm not interested. I'm not a US citizen and I've never been to the US, don't have any plans to go there anytime soon. But I am curious.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Kali74

Entry level engineering.

100K

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

That sounds fun. What kind of engineering? Mechanical? Electrical? Electronic? Software? I have a feeling all this is answered later in the thread.