Interesting thoughts, J-B: but this is just post-war Italian political history repeating itself: either the PM gets his enemies, or they get him (as with Aldo Mori).
Not fascism: Berlusconi's far too rich, and so are a majority of modern Italians, and I doubt that Italy in 2003 could provide the sort of people who marched on Rome for Mussolini.
The idea that Western Europe was ever capable of producing popular movements to change things politically seems so far off now that one could almost doubt that it had ever really happened.

Well spotted JB. if it is going the way that you think then it is indeed worrying.

isnt Berlusconi president of AC Milan as well?

While you on the subject, aren't there some neo-Nazi movements in Germany and some Fascist trends in Holland and Sweden?

Perhaps fascism is the wrong word.

I'll try explain my thoughts a little more clearly.

Berlusconi is a businessman who has succeeded by taking opportunities to expand his empire.For him business is not a game to be played by rules.He is an extreme capitalist.It is an ideology.

I believe the office of Prime Minister is just another business to him.He does not have share holders in his other companies but Italy PLC does.According to his ideology business decisions should not be in the hands of ignorant citizens,share holders by virtue of their birth.

Also he has shown that the best way to make his empire work is through an interconnectedness(probably not a real word)It is impossible for him to seperate the web of his empire the position of Prime Minister being at the centre of that web.

What will happen when the shareholders want a new Director?How will Berlusconi react to the disatisfaction amoungst his shareholders?

Mussolini was actually a good leader of Italy for the first 10 years.It can be justified that Italy needs a strong leader to give Italy some continuity.

It may not take a march on Rome.Just a slow erosion of the statutes that protect democracy in Italy.

Berlusconi holdings

This list is indicative only.

television broadcasting and production

Mediaset group (48.6%)

Canale 5

Italia 1

Retequattro

several pay-TV channels;

Telecinco - Spanish commercial broadcaster (40%)

Kirch Media - German broadcaster (2.28%)

13% of Breton cable tv group TV Breizh (Murdoch's News International has 13%)

Film production and distribution

Medusa Films - largest Italian production house

Penta - distributor (50%)

Cinema 5 - cinema operator

Music

Mediaset has recording and rights management units

Publishing

Mondadori (50.3%)

Einaudi

Sperling & Kupfer

Frasinelli

Athena

Poseidonia

Electa Napoli

Grijalbo - distribution units in Colombia, Argentina, Spain, Chile, Uruguay, Venezuela,

Gruner & Jahr Italy - partnership (50%) with Bertelsmann subsidiary

Hearst Mondadori - 50% magazine publishing partnership with Hearst

Il Giornale

Il Foglio

Pagine Utili - phone directories

approximately 50 magazines

Multimedia

Jumpy - internet portal

Newmedia

Advertising

Publitalia 80

Property development and construction

Edilnord

Cantieri Riuniti Milanesi

Finance

Mediolanum - general insurance

Mediolanum Vita = life assurance

several pension funds

leasing and other financial services

Sport

AC Milan - football club

Hockey and Volleyball clubs

Retail

Blockbuster Italia - video rental (51%)

La Standa department store group

Supermercato supermarket chain

Printing

printing operations in Germany and Spain

Other

direct 2.48% stake in Kirch


This is not a complete list.

this guys got his paws into just about everything!!!

Being rich does not remove one from being facist. Many of Hitlers inner circle were also very wealthy from well-to-do families, old Germanic and Austrian money.

Facism does not rail against capitalism, that is communism. On the contrary, during Hitlers rein many Austrian, Swiss, German and Italian business men did very well providing for the Axis powers and profiting greatly due to the extensive use of slave labor.

So just because this Italian dork is rich does not mean he is against a strong all powerful leadership. Watch this carefully, if he votes himself PM or Supreme Commander for life, he ain't nothin' but a facist.

agreed.


regards
seekerof

Facism will have a hard time coming to the fore again.
The new EU is the mechanism that will stand in it's way.

As facism is closely linked to nationalism and the new EU constitution is soon coming into force, any facist movement is not only going to be attacked from within it's borders but also from without as the nation state is slowly abolished.

The whole point of the EU is to harmonise politics within it's members. Facism has no place in those politics.

That is exactly why fascism is bound to rise up again. Because the oppostion to the EU is already quite vast and as soon as the opposing political idealists realize the faults of the EU then Fascism has a foot hold in the door to the European minds. All it takes is another nationalist country. One like England. Most people on ATS from England hate the idea of the EU. I am not saying that they are bound to be fascists but it does give the fascists a chance to open some minds and to open some doors. Does it not???


Abraham

Not just expecting, but hoping.

I too believe that this Anti-EU thing is merely old disputes not yet settled. It is an arrogant excuse if you ask me, but it is the arrogance of the workings of the political way. In time this whole thing will blow over, that is if everything goes according to plan. My only concern is radicals and terrorists. These people can ruin it for us all. That is why the EU needs to gather as much untity as is humanly possible. So when the opposition does strike, if it ever does, then the EU will be ready to handle it just as America did with Al-Quida. Trust me, people out there are going to try and take down Europe. That is why England needs to face up to the facts and jump on board before the sh*t hits the fan.


Abraham

Rather like most other "-ism's", "fascism" is tossed about as a label with scant regard for language or history.
If one looks at the one clear acse, by definition, of "fascism": Mussolini's, then it can be seen that there really are few parallels with the dreadful Berlusconi or the "new Right". Like Hitler, Mussolini was a socialist at heart -fierce opponent of Imperialism etc -who came to see that power was always going to be more important than policies. So he worked with the right, against republicanism, he came to accords with the monarchy and Vatican etc.
And, since he needed money and big business is greedy he came to accords with capitalists: e.g. abolishing trades unions, helping landowners against peasants. But at the heart was always state control -nor laissez-faire - the party was everywhere and vast state-owned holding companies were at the heart of industry.
If Fascism is anything, it is about the "state" and it deals with capitalism on this basis.

And "fascism" shoudl never be equated with or confused with "nationalism". The Russians under Stalin in WWII, the English under Cromwell, the Germans under the Kaiser or Hitler, or the French under Napoleon were as "nationalistic" as Musolini ever was.

The Eu is just as bad as Nationalism and Fascism. Globalization, NWO, ect. Nationalism is a good thing when channeled properly. Totally removing it is dangerous. perhaps the reason that Nationalism is on the rise in Europe is because for ther past 50 years they have been forccfully supressing it to extremes. Supress anything too hard, and it eventually blows up in your face.

Let us be clear here: "nationalism" ( and, somewhat similarly, "patriotism") are things that will, at certain points of political, economic and cultural development, emerge - perhaps inevitably, as far as history shows.
Nationalism is what is manipulat-ED: a "manipul-able", as it were.
Fascism is one of a number of forces that manipulat-ES: as does communism, monarchism, capitalism, republicanism, liberalism, socialism, perhaps even pacifism...blah..sigh...drivel...yawn. Fascism is a "manipulat-OR".
"Religon" can be the same: it is a "manipul-able" which again can be manipulated by all means of manipulators.
Consequently, it is inevitably wrong to equate "nationalism" with any political movement: all (in theory) are equally capable of manipulating "nationalism".

[Edited on 23-6-2003 by Estragon]