The God of John's gospel, the God of the Old Testament

a reply to: NOTurTypical

They had a false understanding of the Messiah. Jews in Christ's day believed there would be two Messiahs.

Well...

No... they didn't

Argue those points with anyone that adheres to said religion

Said Messiah will be a man, and not a savior as far as i know...

The ruling King (Moshiyach Ben David) and the Suffering Servant (Moshiyach Ben Joseph). They never perceived it was the same Messiah coming twice.

No they certainly did not... both would be describing the same person

He is to be a great leader... and a "warrior"

Jesus only fits half of that bill

Oh right... and Not God

The first time to save them from iniquity and the second time to rule from David's throne.

Well...

They're still waiting on the first appearance

a reply to: Akragon

Hey my good friend, how are you doing?? I came back as you asked, great to see you again. I'm not lying to you friend, read this. Rabbis thought there was two coming Messiahs:

jewishroots.net...

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I wouldn't think you're lying... perhaps just misinformed...

I had a funny feeling you got that idea from that very site actually... Almost like you took it from the conclusion that is given directly

It seems that site is more of a Messianic Jewish site... that being people that believe in Jesus...

which is easily spotted because again as i've said previously, said person is to die for their sins

From the first paragraph

The Messiah was to be both someone who died on our behalf and a Redeemer who would be victorious and rule forever over the Messianic Kingdom

Their actual idea of Messiah is not someone who will be a savior, but a great leader and a warrior... It is said he will bring peace to the world and rid it from evil...

It will be ONE man to do all of the things he is supposed to do... and not die in the process... and mainly as i've said, he will not be "god in the flesh"... but a learned man of their god

In any case im glad to see you back here... and look forward to our usual back and forth from years ago

a reply to: Akragon

No, I just Googled "Judaism Two Messiah" and linked the first article. That was the common belief when Christ was alive, that there would be 2 Messiahs who would come.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Well, i've never heard of such a thing

Sounds like something messianic Jews might believe back then... Generally its always been one man, And there have been a few "Candidates" of said position around Jesus' time, before and after his death

Even a couple that met their requirements more so then Jesus did...

In any case they're still waiting for one man... not two

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, unless we can find someone from that religion around these parts

a reply to: Akragon

Daniel said he would die, that he would be cut-off.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Except IF that person dies before he accomplished what he was meant to do... he is NOT their messiah...

This is the jewish concept of Messiah...

He does not return to accomplish his set tasks... it will be done in his lifetime

their ideas are far different then the Christian concept

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Except IF that person dies before he accomplished what he was meant to do... he is NOT their messiah...

This is the jewish concept of Messiah...

He does not return to accomplish his set tasks... it will be done in his lifetime

their ideas are far different then the Christian concept

I think Jesus made it abundantly clear that their understanding of the Messiah was quite a bit off. Even His own disciples were confused, they asked Him if he was going to restore the Davidic kingdom at that time. He told them it wasn't for them to know the timing He would do it.

Read Psalm 22, that was written first person as Jesus hung on the cross, check out Isaiah 17 and 53, clear allusions to Christ. The entire OT from Genesis to Malachi have direct applications to Jesus Christ. The entire book points to Him.

That's what He was chastising the Pharisees for, they thought the OT contained the knowledge sufficient for them to have eternal life, Jesus pointed out the entire scripture pointed to Him and they wouldn't come to Him for that eternal life.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I recall you saying this before... its simply not true

While there may be some allusions to Jesus according to Christians, most if not all are based on deliberate mistranslations of the texts.

Read Psalm 22, that was written first person as Jesus hung on the cross,

C'mon man...

(don't ya hate these new emotes!!)

The entire OT from Genesis to Malachi have direct applications to Jesus Christ. The entire book points to Him

And as i've said... this is simply not true...

And an entire religion that rejects him for good reason can hardly be wrong... Funny how people try to squeeze a square peg into a round whole... Fortunately this can't be done without shaving the corners

That's what He was chastising the Pharisees for, they thought the OT contained the knowledge sufficient for them to have eternal life, Jesus pointed out the entire scripture pointed to Him and they wouldn't come to Him for that eternal life.

This is partly true... but Jesus didn't say the entire book pointed to him...

all he said was Moses wrote of him

a reply to: Akragon

What mistranslations of the text? Are you talking about the Septuagint text? Or the text that was the product of the Council of Jamnia when the Jews codified and altered their OT texts because they were pissed off Christians were using them to teach people about Jesus?

Do you remember what Jesus did with 2 disciples on the road to Emmaus? When Jesus spent the entire day going through Moses and the prophets teaching them everything the entire OT said about Him?

Luke 24:25-27

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Point being, the entirety of the OT scriptures were not about him... its also interesting that only Luke makes this claim, after his death of course and during a "supernatural" appearance... where his teaching changed from when he was alive in many cases

personally i don't understand how Christians can claim that the jewish people just "missed him"

Regardless of if he was the Messiah (which i personally believe as well)... he wasn't the jewish version of it... He just doesn't make the cut of their requirements.

a reply to: Akragon

It wasn't only Luke, and it wasn't only after his resurrection. What about John 5:39?

a reply to: DISRAELI

So the Universal Creator is exploiting the El Shaddai concept and other concepts as a way of introducing himself and building up a relationship.

and later:

I don't regard it as a sudden transformation but as a long and gradual process.
I see the Biblical God as a patient teacher, willing to take time to transform what he finds (a tendency to focus on local spiritual powers) into what he wants (an acknowledgement of himself as the Creator).

This sounds kind of like a parasitic maneuver. Seems neither wise nor desirable.

Let's look at some things.
Genesis 31.

2 And Jacob noticed that Laban’s attitude toward him was not what it had been.
3 Then the Lord said to Jacob, “Go back to the land of your fathers and to your relatives, and I will be with you.”
...
14 Then Rachel and Leah replied, “Do we still have any share in the inheritance of our father’s estate? 15 Does he not regard us as foreigners? Not only has he sold us, but he has used up what was paid for us. 16 Surely all the wealth that God took away from our father belongs to us and our children. So do whatever God has told you.”
...
17 Then Jacob put his children and his wives on camels, 18 and he drove all his livestock ahead of him, along with all the goods he had accumulated in Paddan Aram, to go to his father Isaac in the land of Canaan.

19 When Laban had gone to shear his sheep, Rachel stole her father’s household gods.

These household gods served many purposes, such as inheritance ( given the context, probably why Rachel stole them). They also serve an ancestor worship purpose. Also as distinct images that serve as witnesses to treaties between tribes and clans.

It has been said that Mohammed cleansed the Kaaba of idols.

According to Islamic tradition, over the millennia after Ishmael's death, his progeny and the local tribes who settled around the oasis of Zam-Zam gradually turned to polytheism and idolatry. Several idols were placed within the Kaaba representing deities of different aspects of nature and different tribes.

wikipedia-Kaaba-Traditional_views_on_origin

But a tribal tradition, of tribal gods is seen to have extended well into the Christian era. This next verse is something I've been thinking about in connection to the Synoptic Jesus instructing his disciples to cast out demons within the boundaries of Judea etc. excluding Gentiles and Samaritans. (see Matthew chapter 10)

Genesis 35 Then God said to Jacob, “Go up to Bethel and settle there, and build an altar there to God, who appeared to you when you were fleeing from your brother Esau.”

2 So Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, “Get rid of the foreign gods you have with you, and purify yourselves and change your clothes. 3 Then come, let us go up to Bethel, where I will build an altar to God, who answered me in the day of my distress and who has been with me wherever I have gone.” 4 So they gave Jacob all the foreign gods they had and the rings in their ears, and Jacob buried them under the oak at Shechem.
...
9 After Jacob returned from Paddan Aram, God appeared to him again and blessed him. 10 God said to him, “Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel.[e]” So he named him Israel.

11 And God said to him, “I am (El-Shaddai)";

In preparation for being in the land, the foreign tribal gods are disposed of. The only suitable image of the tribal god is a pile of stones, image of a mountain for a god of the mountain.

Matthew 10 may in some way be a re-enactment of the incident, with demon exorcism in the place of burying foreign gods. In the whole Greco-Roman World, demon means "of divine origin", which I take to be personal tutelary deities. Only Judaism and by extension Christianity makes them evil by definition. That definition has taken over the World.

I never have lived within the territory of El Shaddai and never intend to. Yet, Judaism by means of Christianity, has imposed their tribal deity as the only deity for the whole World. This seems problematic.

originally posted by: pthena
This sounds kind of like a parasitic maneuver. Seems neither wise nor desirable.

Our opinion on what is wise and desirable matters less than the Creator's own opinion on what is wise and desirable.
The Biblical God does seem to do most of his work by indirect means. He made me a Christian in the first place by exploiting my interest in girls.
Humans may wonder why he doesn't just cut the Gordian knot and "zap" every individual into instant awareness of him. For reasons of his own, he chooses not to work that way, and I'm not going to back my judgement against his.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

It wasn't only Luke, and it wasn't only after his resurrection. What about John 5:39?

It was...

the passage in John only says that the scriptures speak of him... not that he taught and showed them all of these passages that do, let alone showing all of them are pointing to him

How can you say it was the only place? He said the exact same thing, and in His day the "scriptures" they had availible were the Septuagint. The Greek translation of the Tenakh. Or in other words, Moses, Psalms and the prophets.

Jesus says the OT points to him. Did you know the western idea of prophecy is "prediction then fulfillment" but that's not the eastern/Hebrew idea of prophecy which is "pattern and types"? Example, Moses putting a brass snake up on a pole so that anyone who had been bitten by a snake who just looked at it was healed and wouldn't die. Picture of Christ on the cross saving anyone who looked to Him. Another, the Passover lamb. Jesus teaches Nicodemus this.

The entire book points to or prophesies of Christ.

Try to order a book called "Beginning at Moses" by Michael Barrett. It's a fascinating book showing all the awesome things in the OT that point to Jesus, it's a great read. Even easily overlooked things like the genealogy in Genesis, or the story of Ruth and the kinsman redeemer Boaz. Picture of the church and the Bridegroom, Jesus. The threshing floor scene a picture of the tribulation.

The OT is a fascinating collection of books, it's amazing.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Example, Moses putting a brass snake up on a pole so that anyone who had been bitten by a snake who just looked at it was healed and wouldn't die. Picture of Christ on the cross saving anyone who looked to Him.

So "Christ" WAS the serpent in the Garden and when he said "You surely will not die" he wasn't lying!

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Example, Moses putting a brass snake up on a pole so that anyone who had been bitten by a snake who just looked at it was healed and wouldn't die. Picture of Christ on the cross saving anyone who looked to Him.

So "Christ" WAS the serpent in the Garden and when he said "You surely will not die" he wasn't lying!

No, the brass snake in the wilderness. This was commanded to Moses to do. So that anyone bitten by a deadly snake only had to look at the snake to be healed.

A snake is a Levitical symbol for sin, brass is the Levitical symbol for judgment. The picture.. sin judged on a pole = cure for the penalty for being infected by sin.

a reply to: windword

So "Christ" WAS the serpent in the Garden and when he said "You surely will not die" he wasn't lying!

That's a bit of a mixed metaphor, however, the Gospel writing under discussion is bursting with death defying or denying statements. See Eternal life | Theopedia

The term eternal life is a central theme found in the Gospel of John. The very purpose of John's gospel was that "you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn 20:31; cf. 1 Jn 5:13), "life" being synonymous with "eternal life". Jesus says that, "this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent" (John 17:3).

But to quote an almost paraphrase:

John 11:24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

So if the Gospel of John was written after quite a few believers had died, and yet no need was seen to explain away such statements, but rather emphasize them...

I guess I don't really understand what this particular literary work is exactly.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

A snake is a Levitical symbol for sin

Not exactly. In my opinion the serpent symbolism represents our animal nature, which we must subdue.

Moreover, because the Egyptian culture deified certain animals (see, for example, Rashi on Genesis 46:34), the symbol of the tanin, the first creature God created, effectively conveys God’s complete mastery over the world. Note that Aaron’s tanin, which might be called a “tanin of belief” devours the Egyptians’ “taninim of disbelief,” thus asserting the validity of the message that Moses and Aaron represent.
.........
At first glance, however, it seems strange to resort to this symbol, because the nachash was blamed for causing the sin of Adam and Eve, and thus it created distance between man and God. Why, then, would Moses evoke this symbol?

Perhaps the answer is that, whereas the Torah does not detail how Aaron converted the tanin back into a staff, it explicitly states that God commanded Moses to grab the nachash by its tail, and then it would turn back into a staff (Exodus 4:4). Thus, Moses demonstrates mastery over the very creature that once brought distance between man and God. Moses’ message is that it is time for the Jews to re-enter into an intimate relationship with God.

www.myjewishlearning.com...

Case in point:

6Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.

So, the lifting of the brass serpent represents the raising of one's animal nature. The same symbol was adopted by the Greeks, around 500BC, and it's still, to this day, used to symbolize healing, medicine and higher learning, not sin, chaos and evil.

Christians should be careful not to turn the symbol of the crucified messiah on the cross into an idol that should be destroyed in the same manner that King Hezekiah destroyed Moses' Nehushtan, in 2 Kings 18.