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Evidence Accumulates for Ancient Transoceanic Voyages, Says Geographer

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posted on Jun, 17 2016 @ 07:40 AM
There's lots of room between "It didn't happen" and "That has not been proven". By all means, poke at the fringes. Alternate or dissenting hypotheses are great for driving research but can't be mistaken for fact until proven. I don't see the problem in that, as I don't want our intellectual base to be set upon conjecture. Yes, science has accepted notions that were later proven to be wrong, but that was changed by the introduction of new evidence. That's not a bad thing, is it?

posted on Jun, 17 2016 @ 09:46 AM
a reply to: Marduk


The altaian Hg X2e is a realtively young clade that has its source in the caucuses, less than 6k years ago, and is not really related to Hg X2a, other than it is part of the overall phylogeny of X.

Clade X2e, defined by the synonymous substitution at 15310, encompasses all haplogroup X sequences in the Altaians (fig. 2). Among the nine Altaian X sequences, eight harbor the founder HVS-I motif of X2e, and seven of these eight also carry the HVS-II founder motif. As a result, a very low haplotype diversity of haplogroup X (0) in the Altaian region was obtained, making it significantly different from the haplotype diversities for haplogroups C and D (0.835 and 0.943, respectively) in the same region. Moreover, the nine Altaian mtDNAs do not harbor any nucleotide difference between nps 16090 and 16365. Therefore, under the assumption that these sequences are a random sample of the Altaian haplogroup X, an estimated ρ value

posted on Jun, 17 2016 @ 06:47 PM
a reply to: punkinworks10
Well then , half of my post disappeared.

This graphic illustrates just how divergent X1 is from the rest of X and shows that Native American X 2a
Splits off from the main branch of X2 very early.

So, as Marduk said X is off of the table for this conversation.
But this whole conversation does bring up a few interesting aspects about the diffusion of X2a in the new world.
A) X2a been found in any truely ancient remains and doesn't show up until Kennewick, whom was a traveller, the next most ancient sample of X is from windover big and is a thousand years later than Kennewick.
So, if X 2a is part of the so called founding group, then where was X2a hiding.

These findings leave unanswered the question of the geographic source of Native American X2a in the Old World, although our analysis provides new clues about the time of the arrival of haplogroup X in the Americas. Indeed, if we assume that the two complete Native American X sequences (from one Navajo and one Ojibwa) began to diverge while their common ancestor was already in the Americas, we obtain a coalescence time of 18,000 ± 6,800 YBP, implying an arrival time not later than 11,000 YBP.

This statement seems to imply that X 2a arrived only a thousand years before Kennewick.
Seeing as how the accepted sites show humans in the lower 48 by a minimum of 16 k years ago, how can X2a be included in the founding populations.

Origin and Difussion of Hg X

posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 01:58 AM
Its been posted here on ATS before - that the peoples who crossed the Bering straits into the Americas were from a Eurasian super-group. (The Map Of Native American Tribes You've Never Seen Before). Those genetic markers that often get touted in promoting a European Atlantic crossing in ancient times were present in the people that crossed over Beringia during the Ice Age.

Here is a direct link to that paper:
"Great Surprise"—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins

"Oldest human genome reveals less of an East Asian ancestry than thought."

Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian people linked to the Middle East and Europe, rather than entirely from East Asians as previously thought, according to a newly sequenced genome.

posted on Jun, 21 2016 @ 05:11 PM
It seems that the article I stumbled on discusses the very same genetics work, but comes to a much different conclusion,
so I'll add what I've come up with to your thread.

First a little about an some academic shenanigans,

By the late 20th century, things had gone to the other extreme in North Carolina. In 1976 the North Carolina state government directed a team of professors to prove that the Cherokees had been in their state for at least 1000 years. It was called the North Carolina History Project. The archaeologists and historians justified their bonus paychecks by dutifully re-labeling all Native American archeological sites in the western third of the state as “Cherokee” or “Proto-Cherokee.” The widespread Creek Indian place names were re-labeled “ancient Cherokee words whose meanings have been lost.”
This academic fraud flew in the face of early Colonial archives that described several other ethnic groups living in the region prior to 1715, but no Cherokees. The word “Charaqui” first appeared on a European map in 1718. Almost all radiocarbon dates for documented Cherokee villages, come from after 1720


Two subsequent generations of archaeologists and historians have so thoroughly quoted each other in academic papers that no one realizes that North Carolina had a different history before 1976. The absurd results is that the Coweeta town site, one mile north of the Georgia state line, is labeled a Cherokee – Pisgah Phase town. Its sister towns immediately south of the state line are labeled Etowah and Lamar proto-Creek towns by Georgia archaeologists. The same proto-Creek pottery and architecture is found in all these towns. Coweta is a Creek word and has no meaning in the Cherokee language.

Perceiving a vast potential market from the millions of Americans, who proudly claim that their great-grandmother was a Cherokee Princess, DNA Consultants, Inc. initiated comprehensive DNA testing of the Cherokees living on the Qualla Reservation in western North Carolina. The North Carolina Cherokees were chosen because after 180 years in the west, Oklahoma Cherokees are so thoroughly mixed with other ethnic groups, that any DNA test marker obtained would be meaningless.

The laboratory immediately stumbled into a scientific hornet’s nest. That Cherokee princess in someone’s genealogy was most likely a Jewish or North African princess. Its scientists have labeled the Cherokees not as Native Americans, but as a Middle Eastern-North African population. Cherokees have high levels of test markers associated with the Berbers, native Egyptians, Turks, Lebanese, Hebrews and Mesopotamians. Genetically, they are more Jewish than the typical American Jew of European ancestry. So-called “full-blooded” Cherokees have high levels of European DNA and a trace of Asiatic (Native American) DNA. Their skin color and facial features are primarily Semitic in origin, not Native American. Outraged Cherokees can read the reports at:Anomalous Mitochondrial DNA Lineages in the Cherokee

The guy who runs the DNA testing company has some very interesting things to say in his blog, linked to above.

Haplogroup U has never been reported in American Indians to my knowledge. In our sample it covers 13 cases or 25% of the total, second in frequency only to haplogroup T. One of the U's is Mary M. Garrabrant-Brower. She belongs to U5a1a* (all U5a1a not matched or assigned) but has no close matches anywhere. Her great-grandmother was Clarissa Green of the Cherokee Wolf Clan, born 1846. Mary's mother Mary M. Lounsbury maintained the Cherokee language and rituals. One of the cases of U2e* is my own. This line evidently arose from a Jewish Indian trader and a Cherokee woman. My fifth-great-grandmother was born about 1790 on the northern Georgia and southwestern North Carolina frontier and had a relationship with a trader named Enoch Jordan. The trader's male line descendants from his white family in North Carolina possess Y chromosomal J, a common Jewish type. Some Jordans, in fact, bear the Cohen Modal Haplotype that has been suggested to be the genetic signature of Old Testament priests (Thomas et al. 1998). Enoch Jordan was born about 1768 in Scotland of forbears from Russia or the Ukraine. My mother, Bessie Cooper, was a double descendant of Cherokee chief Black Fox and was born on Sand Mountain in northeastern Alabama near Black Fox's former seat at Creek Path (and who was Paint Clan). All U2e* cases appear to have in common the fact that there are underlying Melungeon, Cherokee and Jewish connections.

The many interrelationships noted above reinforce the conclusion that this is a faithful cross-section of a population. No such mix could have resulted from post-1492 European gene flow into the Cherokee Nation. So where do our non-European, non-Indian-appearing elements come from? The level of haplogroup T in the Cherokee (26.9%) approximates the percentage for Egypt (25%), one of the only lands where T attains a major position among the various mitochondrial lineages. In Egypt, T is three times what it is in Europe. Haplogroup U in our sample is about the same as the Middle East in general. Its frequency is similar to that of Turkey and Greece. J has a frequency not unlike Europe (a little less than 10%). The only other place on earth where X is found at an elevated level apart from other American Indian groups like the Ojibwe is among the Druze in the Hills of Galilee in northern Israel and Lebanon. The work of Shlush et al. (2009) demonstrates that this region was in fact the center of the worldwide diffusion of haplogroup X.

But as the author from the Examiner article points out, Cherokee history is relatively new and not exactly as it appears on the modern surface, and the DNA profile does't apply to all cherokee.

There is a major inaccuracy in most articles about this controversy. Both DNA Consultants and journalists are stating that the research results from the Qualla Reservation apply to all Cherokees. Genetic research associated with the filming of the History Channel’s “America Unearthed” found separate populations of Cherokees outside the reservation with very different genetic profiles. In several counties, the “Cherokees” had profiles identical to Georgia Creeks, and often carried Maya DNA like the Georgia Creeks. In one county, the “Cherokees” were predominantly Quechua from South America, or else mixed Quechua, Maya and Creek. Many of the residents of the Snowbird Cherokee Reservation in Graham County, NC look like the Zoque of Mexico, who created the Olmec Civilization. They are called “Moon Faces” by the Cherokees on the main reservation.

At present, the researchers at DNA Consultants seem unaware that throughout the 1600s Iberian Sephardic Jews and Moorish Conversos colonized the North Carolina and Georgia Mountains, where they mined and worked gold and silver. All European maps show western North Carolina occupied by Apalache, Creek, Shawnee and Yuchi Indians until 1718. Most of these indigenous tribal groups were forced out in the early 1700s. Anglo-America

Cherokee From the middle east

edit on p0000006k14622016Tue, 21 Jun 2016 17:14:13 -0500k by punkinworks10 because: (no reason given)

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