Why does current events exist, really?

I have a question. Without the premeditated Iraq war of 2003, would there even be an ISIS?
Yet, sometimes I think U.S. government knew of the threat of Islamists and acted... though against us common people's will.

Are we being protected or is our government savage... I assume I will never ever know.

Impossible to say.

Though I can 100% say Iraq and Afghanistan didn’t make the situation better.

Iraq we NEVER should have gone in.

Afghanistan were actively harbouring and supporting terrorists so something needed to be done. But the USA and UK should have had a better plan. Especially concerning Pakistan were the terrorists just jumped to after the invasion.

O a Saudi Arabia.....Why have those scumbags been ignored? They are the root of all evil in the Middle East.
Without the support Saudi Arabia there would have been no Al Qaeda or ISIS.

a reply to: crazyewok

I find S.A. questionable myself. Am I crazy or does my country plead for inalienable human rights to the world but supply S.A. with fighter jets and missiles?

a reply to: Gyo01

Its not just the USA.

UK give SA lots of military hardware. They get the best from the USA and UK.

Our Prime Minister even stated on live TV when questioned that the UK does as Saudi Arabia Blackmail us with the possibility of more frequent terrorist attacks.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Gyo01

Its not just the USA.

UK give SA lots of military hardware. They get the best from the USA and UK.

Our Prime Minister even stated on live TV when questioned that the UK does as Saudi Arabia Blackmail us with the possibility of more frequent terrorist attacks.

Don´t forget "us" in germany, "we" sell them weapons too, many weapons

a reply to: crazyewok

sketchy relationship is the west and east.
I cannot wait for cold fusion, or something else! let them suck. heh.

I blame all this war on the Expiry date on bombs, somehow I think you could refuel the Tomahawks instead of using them like cigarettes.

a reply to: Gyo01

To be blunt, there was no Al Qaeda in Iraq during Saddam's reign. Love him or hate him, but his government crushed all internal threats with equal fury, regardless of the demographic.

In fact, Osama Bin Laden was at odds w/the Saudi royals and Saudi govt because they wouldn't let him use his troops to defend Saudi Arabia against Saddam's Iraqi army before Desert Storm. Think about that for a second. Bin Laden wanted to unleash his "Al Qaeda" troops against Saddam's Iraq after Iraq invaded Kuwait, since the fear was that Saddam would invade Saudi Arabia next.

As for ISIS/Daesh in Iraq, a lot of their Iraqi branch's leadership are supposedly former Iraqi military leaders. This actually makes sense because the West stupidly disbanded the Iraq military and the Ba'ath Party once we occupied Iraq. That would be like China conquering the US and then immediately disbanding the National Guard, police departments, all military branches, and both the Republican and Democratic Parties. All of those people not only lost their jobs, but they probably also lost their social status, govt benefits, and much more. Add in the immense death and destruction we caused there, and you can imagine how many people wanted revenge against us. And without a strong law enforcement infrastructure or a strongman like Saddam to crush any internal gangs and paramilitary groups, groups like ISIS were able to grow.

Then you have to throw in the new Iraqi proxy war between the Wahhabi dominated GCC and their rival Iran over who'd control Iraq. Saddam and much of his administration were Sunnis, Iraq is about 60% Shiite, Shiite's gained power in the new Iraqi government post-Saddam, and this infuriated the GCC. The last thing they wanted was for Iraq to become another Shiite "enemy" nation that was close to Iran, so they started backing both the Sunnis and Wahhabis in Iraq.

Honestly, it's even more complicated than what I mentioned. I've almost given up trying to learn what's really going on over there because the sources I find contradict each other. So maybe someone else can add more info.

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: Gyo01

Its not just the USA.

UK give SA lots of military hardware. They get the best from the USA and UK.

Our Prime Minister even stated on live TV when questioned that the UK does as Saudi Arabia Blackmail us with the possibility of more frequent terrorist attacks.

Was that question time and did he answer question?

The irony of a Saudi diplomat heading a UN human rights commitee wasn't lost on me. Syria and Libya were predominantly attacked due too human rights... Saudi Arabia are always ignored by governments, it's funny that.

a reply to: RAY1990

Not question time but one of the sunday morning programs.

His words were something like we have to support suadi arabia in exchange for information on terrorist attacks.

So basicaly we give then guns and they sell out a few of there low level terrorists in exchange....

Al queda de-evolved into ISIS. So yes

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Makes some sense. Thanks.

Anyway, yeah, it is a mess over there. It's something not easily understood. There likely is only a handful of people who know the truth of why the world is the way it is. I just wish it was over already.

a reply to: Gyo01

I agree.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Really great post.

I just hope that, if the real story ever comes out, humanity gets it's retribution on whatever mad puppet master has set these event in play.

a reply to: JetBlackStare

Thanks. I really hope so too. But I'm becoming jaded w/politics. The 24 hour news cycle and our notoriously short attention spans make sure we never focus on problems long enough to fix them. So the complex international issues like this have almost no chance of being "fixed".

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Gyo01

To be blunt, there was no Al Qaeda in Iraq during Saddam's reign. Love him or hate him, but his government crushed all internal threats with equal fury, regardless of the demographic.

Who the # would "love" Saddam? equally crushed? what is this some kind of civil rights movement for evil dictators?, you know for a pacifist you sure do talk really strange sometimes. Here lets have a list of Saddams crimes against humanity and genocide he committed.

Saddams crimes against humanity

1988 -- Halabja Gassing During the Anfal campaign, "Chemical Ali" ordered an attack against civilians in the town of Halabja. Iraqi forces dropped bombs containing mustard and nerve gases. An estimated 5,000 men, women and children died in a single day. Many more died from long-term medical problems, and birth defects are still common in the area.

1990s -- Marsh Arabs Devastated Saddam attacked the Shiite "Marsh Arabs" by destroying their land. Once a significant wetland, the marshes in southern Iraq were devastated by a government drainage plan that left behind a wasteland. In 1991, 250,000 Marsh Arabs lived in the region. Now 90 percent of the area is in ruins and only an estimated 20,000 people remain. Tens of thousands live in refugee camps in Iran. Efforts are now underway to restore the marshes. Human Rights Watch calls the campaign against the Marsh Arabs a crime against humanity and other rights activists call it genocide. There are claims chemical weapons also were used.

1990 -- Invasion of Kuwait In August of 1990, Saddam ordered the Iraqi military, the fourth largest military in the world at the time, to invade Kuwait, leading to the 1991 Gulf War. Iraqi soldiers are accused of torturing and executing hundreds of Kuwaitis, as well as taking hostages and looting. More than 700 oil wells were set on fire and pipelines opened, spilling oil into the Gulf.

I will get no support or love for what I am about to say.

Let me just critique your first sentence which I don't care about the rest, or really much of anything you have to say, but it should read love the U.S or hate the U.S it has more than enough moral obligation to have gone into Iraq and remove that evil dictator, and also twelve binding resolutions all of which were violated thus forfeiting the sovereignty of Saddam's Iraq.

It's so strange to hear you speak almost kindly of such an evil person, as if Saddam was a moral answer to the middle east problems, and not a middle eastern problem as well. There's a lot going on here, there's many sides to all of this but the way you tell your story is disgusting.

a reply to: TechniXcality

Not everyone in Iraq hated Saddam and the Ba'ath Party. My Iraqi Christian friends openly talk about how well the Ba'ath Party treated them. Even Western leaders were pro-Saddam for years, including Reagan. Then again, Reagan was also pro-Taliban and his administration and Congress directly armed the other Afghan muhajideen. He even dedicated the Space Shuttle Columbia's successful launch to the freedom fighters in Afghanistan who were fighting Russia at the time (which included Bin Laden's fighters, the Afghan warlords, and the groups that would become the Taliban). Then again, I'm not surprised if you don't know this or anything else I typed.

Your other comments are ridiculous so I won't address them. But I will repeat that Saddam's government crushed all internal threats with equal fury, regardless of the demographic. How on Earth you interpreted that to be some "equality blah blah for dictators" just shows your own level of reading comprehension. Because Saddam crushed all internal opposition equally, be they Sunni, Shiite, Christian, or whatever. That's a fact. And no, it's not a compliment.

Oh & Ramadan Mubarak. I may not like you in the least, but I still want you to have a great month.

a reply to: TechniXcality

Saddam was a bad egg in a land full of dodgy omelletes. He wouldn't have lasted more than a year if he wasn't an evil piece of #. Morality had little to do with the US lead invasion and morality was lacking when Saddam laumched chemical filled warheads into Iran.

It's a joke to say the US had a moral obligation to invade Iraq. Especially when the US buries it's head whenever anyone mentions the ills say Saudi Arabia or Israel commit. The US would have had a moral obligation to stop the Rwandan massacres in the 90's and probably justification after the slaughter of tourists but it was favoured to extradite suspected murderers to be trialed in the US.

Personally I agree with enlightenedservant's comment. Saddam was an evil man and equally evil against all of his percieved enemies.

In terms of justification the US has had a nice list of potential enemies over the years including actual enemies. The invasion of Iraq was always a poor choice.

originally posted by: TechniXcality

1988 -- Halabja Gassing During the Anfal campaign, "Chemical Ali" ordered an attack against civilians in the town of Halabja. Iraqi forces dropped bombs containing mustard and nerve gases. An estimated 5,000 men, women and children died in a single day. Many more died from long-term medical problems, and birth defects are still common in the area.

1990s -- Marsh Arabs Devastated Saddam attacked the Shiite "Marsh Arabs" by destroying their land. Once a significant wetland, the marshes in southern Iraq were devastated by a government drainage plan that left behind a wasteland. In 1991, 250,000 Marsh Arabs lived in the region. Now 90 percent of the area is in ruins and only an estimated 20,000 people remain. Tens of thousands live in refugee camps in Iran. Efforts are now underway to restore the marshes. Human Rights Watch calls the campaign against the Marsh Arabs a crime against humanity and other rights activists call it genocide. There are claims chemical weapons also were used.

1990 -- Invasion of Kuwait In August of 1990, Saddam ordered the Iraqi military, the fourth largest military in the world at the time, to invade Kuwait, leading to the 1991 Gulf War. Iraqi soldiers are accused of torturing and executing hundreds of Kuwaitis, as well as taking hostages and looting. More than 700 oil wells were set on fire and pipelines opened, spilling oil into the Gulf.

there's many sides to all of this but the way you tell your story is disgusting.

The only fact that is disgusting in this thread is the level of your ignorance and your pathetic/patriotic glasses you wear. Your government is responsible directly or indirectly for more death and destruction in Iraq than Saddam ever was. Saddam was an evil bastard killing people with chemical weapons, your government does the same but are more clinical about it and every crime they committed was just classified as "colleteral damage". It's surprising that there are still members of ATS who believe in fairy tales that USA invaded Iraq for moral reasons. You must be an ex marine who wasted 2-3 years of his life in Iraq believing you did the right thing.

originally posted by: TechniXcality

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Gyo01

To be blunt, there was no Al Qaeda in Iraq during Saddam's reign. Love him or hate him, but his government crushed all internal threats with equal fury, regardless of the demographic.

Who the # would "love" Saddam? equally crushed? what is this some kind of civil rights movement for evil dictators?, you know for a pacifist you sure do talk really strange sometimes. Here lets have a list of Saddams crimes against humanity and genocide he committed.

Saddams crimes against humanity

1988 -- Halabja Gassing During the Anfal campaign, "Chemical Ali" ordered an attack against civilians in the town of Halabja. Iraqi forces dropped bombs containing mustard and nerve gases. An estimated 5,000 men, women and children died in a single day. Many more died from long-term medical problems, and birth defects are still common in the area.

1990s -- Marsh Arabs Devastated Saddam attacked the Shiite "Marsh Arabs" by destroying their land. Once a significant wetland, the marshes in southern Iraq were devastated by a government drainage plan that left behind a wasteland. In 1991, 250,000 Marsh Arabs lived in the region. Now 90 percent of the area is in ruins and only an estimated 20,000 people remain. Tens of thousands live in refugee camps in Iran. Efforts are now underway to restore the marshes. Human Rights Watch calls the campaign against the Marsh Arabs a crime against humanity and other rights activists call it genocide. There are claims chemical weapons also were used.

1990 -- Invasion of Kuwait In August of 1990, Saddam ordered the Iraqi military, the fourth largest military in the world at the time, to invade Kuwait, leading to the 1991 Gulf War. Iraqi soldiers are accused of torturing and executing hundreds of Kuwaitis, as well as taking hostages and looting. More than 700 oil wells were set on fire and pipelines opened, spilling oil into the Gulf.

I will get no support or love for what I am about to say.

Let me just critique your first sentence which I don't care about the rest, or really much of anything you have to say, but it should read love the U.S or hate the U.S it has more than enough moral obligation to have gone into Iraq and remove that evil dictator, and also twelve binding resolutions all of which were violated thus forfeiting the sovereignty of Saddam's Iraq.

It's so strange to hear you speak almost kindly of such an evil person, as if Saddam was a moral answer to the middle east problems, and not a middle eastern problem as well. There's a lot going on here, there's many sides to all of this but the way you tell your story is disgusting.

From what I've read, he was a necessary evil.

There also is video of Reagan hanging out with Taliban. Here's video:

m.youtube.com...

Also, life in Afghanistan before Taliban (pictures + article):

www.dailymail.co.uk... oor-picnics-colourful-markets.html