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Atheist Join Me Please, I need some questions answered.

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posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:00 PM
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edit on 14-6-2016 by chrismarco because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:01 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: chrismarco

If you would finish the post you'd see that your responses should have nothing to do with the questions


You just made my point...the reader loses interest before getting to the end...



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:02 PM
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a reply to: NightFlight




Nothing in this universe but man worships a supreme being. Man created god to worship. God does not, nor has God ever existed.


Ok so man is unique in that they worship a supreme being. Ok so you think man created God. Why should I believe that? If God didn't create man what did? Is the universe eternal so many questions!!! I'll just keep it to those for now.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:03 PM
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a reply to: chrismarco

If your not interested dont respond....



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:11 PM
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a reply to: Orionx2




1) The USA promotes democracy right? The people should not fear their government and the people should be the one's ultimately in charge. The USA government has made it their agenda to get rid of dictatorship governments. Saddam, Gaddafi, etc.. Right? Because these counties are ran by fear. If you cross a dictator they will do horrible things to you.... Now replace "Dictator" with "GOD". You know the popular phrase "GOD fearing Christian". So wait, what? You don't obey GOD's rule or you will be punished? GOD/Dictator... Slim line.. You want to tell me a Dictator didn't write the bible? lol Don't be naive.


You don't have a proper understanding of core Christian beliefs. Such as the concept of grace and how it is achieved. If you think Christians believe they can work their way into heaven I think your drastically misunderstood the text.




2) Why would the all mighty GOD actually need us? Why would he create Humans? It does not make any sense. What is the point of Heaven? If GOD wanted these perfect people in Heaven then why not make them perfect to begin with? Are we just GODs entertainment to see who will follow is rules? GOD is the creator, he could make us however he wanted...


I fail how to see this isn't simply a rejection of my belief. I am asking for positive arguments for your position on the world . What if God didn't want perfect people in heaven unless the freely chose to be morally good? What if God loves people who aren't morally perfect anyway? What if the whole reason God created humans was simply because he loved them? I love jiu jitsu. It hard on the body and joints and you get hurt sometimes. I do it simply because I love it. Why do people choose to have kids? They do it simply because they know how the feel about the child that isn't even born yet. Why can't God's reason be the same?

Forgot three




3) Why would the Almighty compassionate GOD allow 230,000 people get killed in a tsunami? Sumatra, Indonesia - 26 December 2004. What possible purpose could this be?


This is just a reposing of the problem of evil. And it seems to rely on some underlying assumptions:

1.) If God is omnipotent then he can create any world that he desires

2.)If God is omnibenevolent then he prefers a world without evil over a world with evil

Neither of which seem to be necessarily true to be which would make the arguments invalid.
edit on 14-6-2016 by ServantOfTheLamb because: Forgot three



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:12 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb
Sorry im on my phone so its difficult to cut and paste like uve done in your post but ill try to be as clear as I can.

I call myself an atheist because I dont believe in god as the term is defined by religious types.
I believe everything that is exists is a manifestation of "god" and we ourselves are just fragmented pieces of a universal consciousness.

Why does god need to exist in the form that the bible describes for good and evil to exist?
I believe what we consider good and evil are simply manifestations of our brain chemistry working, something is pleasant its good, something is unpleasant its bad.
There are quite a few universal good/evil things like eating and being warm and on the other side pain and fear.
What ever excites these primal instincts will be equated with good or evil.
But then you also have cultural conditioning which is why in some societies whats considered good or evil can be contradictory to another societies beliefs.

Like your beliefs mine are based on faith and observance. For you its faith and belief in the bible and what it says.
For me mine comes from a curious mind that since I was 4 and 1st asked my Mum about god has observed the world around me and come to my own conclusions and what Ive found is that my beliefs are very in sync with the more esoteric parts of most religions.
You dont need to believe my opinions and I know you wont just like I wont be convinced by yours.
To be fair its probably better to stick with yours, if your wrong no harm no foul, if Im wrong Im probably going to hell


Sometimes to understand something you need to be able to view it from the outside and I dont think Christians really understand what it is they are believing. You believe the words of Jesus who if he did exist was a decent sorta bloke by all accounts but other than his words the only other proof of god we have are his actions according to the OT and there is no way without having been brainwashed you can believe that god was an all loving god. Even to the people who worshipped him he was horrible.
As a christian how do you reconcile that massive gap between what jesus says and gods actual actions?

Someone somewhere is lying or got their wires crossed, either the OT is false or the NT is false as they completely contradict each other

P.s Im gonna S&F your thread and OP because I believe your sincere in wanting an open and intelligent discourse and sadly these days thats a rare thing on this site


Nothing but respect for ya so far
edit on 14/6/2016 by IkNOwSTuff because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:13 PM
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My thoughts on religion?

Makes as much sense as that.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:21 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Woodcarver




My beliefs about god? I think it is a fairy tale. I think it's fake because of all of the impossible events that take place in pretty much every religion's books.


I didn't ask what you think about god if your atheist you obviously think he doesn't exists.. i asked you to provide reasons for your beliefs as I have done mine....
I did give an explanation. All of the impossible events in the bible and other religious books. I also don't believe the odin and thor legacy, nor bramha and vishnu, zeus, jupiter, mithra, you name a god, and i don't believe people when they say it exists.
edit on 14-6-2016 by Woodcarver because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:23 PM
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Why would you giving a flying crap about what anyone else's beliefs are?
Why do you let it impact you this much?
Get on with your faith, live your life and leave everyone else alone.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:25 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
So quite often I am on here providing reasons to believe in God. A quick run down of my philosophical position is as follows:

1Q: Is matter and energy all that exists?

1A: Teleological Argument/Cosmological Argument/Argument from Semiotics of Dna == No matter and energy are not all that exists

2Q: What is the nature of God?

2A: Ontological Argument by Alvina Plantinga == God is an all powerful, all good, all knowing, and necessary being.

3Q: Do objective moral values and duties exists?

3A: Yes. I clearly apprehend objective moral values and have no good reason to deny what I clearly perceive. IE Torturing sentient beings for fun is objective wrong.

4Q: Do the existence of moral values imply the existence of a God?

4A: Morality Argument paired with the understanding of the nature of God brought by the 2A

5Q: Is the God of Abraham the one true God?

5A: Minimal facts argument for the resurrection of christ.

Now here is a logical system of how I came to my belief in christ along with experiences with him that makes it a properly basic belief.


Now as tempting as it may be for all the atheist or agnostics out there to attack my position THIS IS NOT the purpose of the thread and any such comment should be considered off topic. Rather the purpose of the questions and answers is to show that I have reasons for my beliefs whether you think they are convincing or is not what i want to discuss. What I'd like to discuss are the reasons you believe your position. I would like you to give me reasons to believe what you believe. Now pay close attention to what I am asking from the respondents, I am asking for your reasons for your beliefs. I am NOT asking you to reject my reason I am asking you to provide reasons of your own.







1) yes, at least as far as we know or can imagaine.

2) would have to be neutral at best, good really isn't on the table, not the biblical God anyway...genocide, incest, slavery exc...


But judging by the universe being both good and evil and a creation is usually a reflection of its its creator. I would say that "he is both" is a fair guess.


3) Yes..those are things that are best for society and cause the least conflict. If you rape or murder, family members will retaliate.. Exc. I think morality can be explained as a social evolution.


4) No. Some things are just he best way to do something. I think that is highlighted by the anti gay and anti other religion's movements.

The bible clearly backs up things we know to be immoral, slavery, women as property, sex (marriage to) with children.


5) not even on the table... Every testable claim in the bible from the creation myth to the flood myth, to the fate of Dodoma and gohmora have been debunked.

You cannot disprove the concept of God, but Christianity is quite easily debunked..




edit on 14-6-2016 by JoshuaCox because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:36 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Orionx2




1) The USA promotes democracy right? The people should not fear their government and the people should be the one's ultimately in charge. The USA government has made it their agenda to get rid of dictatorship governments. Saddam, Gaddafi, etc.. Right? Because these counties are ran by fear. If you cross a dictator they will do horrible things to you.... Now replace "Dictator" with "GOD". You know the popular phrase "GOD fearing Christian". So wait, what? You don't obey GOD's rule or you will be punished? GOD/Dictator... Slim line.. You want to tell me a Dictator didn't write the bible? lol Don't be naive.


You don't have a proper understanding of core Christian beliefs. Such as the concept of grace and how it is achieved. If you think Christians believe they can work their way into heaven I think your drastically misunderstood the text.




2) Why would the all mighty GOD actually need us? Why would he create Humans? It does not make any sense. What is the point of Heaven? If GOD wanted these perfect people in Heaven then why not make them perfect to begin with? Are we just GODs entertainment to see who will follow is rules? GOD is the creator, he could make us however he wanted...


I fail how to see this isn't simply a rejection of my belief. I am asking for positive arguments for your position on the world . What if God didn't want perfect people in heaven unless the freely chose to be morally good? What if God loves people who aren't morally perfect anyway? What if the whole reason God created humans was simply because he loved them? I love jiu jitsu. It hard on the body and joints and you get hurt sometimes. I do it simply because I love it. Why do people choose to have kids? They do it simply because they know how the feel about the child that isn't even born yet. Why can't God's reason be the same?

Sorry, but you completely ignored my entire post. "simply a rejection of my beliefs" Really? You asked for what atheists/agnostics believe and I told you. I don't care what your beliefs are. "GOD created Humans because he loved them?" Are you dense? How would he know he loved them if he has not created them first? And why would he allow millions to be killed horrifically every year if he "loved humans".

Wannabe dictators created religion to control the masses.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:45 PM
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ServantOfTheLamb

Do I have to be an atheist to take the bait? I'm just gonna assume no...



I am a Discordian I adhere to this philosophy because the only true constant I have ever witnessed is chaos.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:50 PM
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Beliefs. How does one believe in what one does not know?
And we don't know what we don't know....



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 09:07 PM
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Lots of people believe things when either they have a poor understanding of the nature of stuff, simple comfort, familiarity, etc.
My personal views...I dont have many beliefs. I have curiousities, hopes, experiences that relay into something sort of on a belief line but changes as more info comes in, and understandings. belief (strong) requires a sort of rejection of any new perspectives, and that is the death of learning.


Now for the stuff you didn't ask for (if you care)


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb

1Q: Is matter and energy all that exists?

Given all things are energy, which constitutes matter, then sure. every "thing" is energy..no energy, it is no "thing"...(thing being key)
if it exists, it has energy


2Q: What is the nature of God?

whatever you define it no doubt. biblically speaking, the one source creator for all things, all dimensions, everything.
older religions would define it as basically a super being (one of many) that took part in creation.


3Q: Do objective moral values and duties exists?

Sure. both subjective based on society norms of course. thats like asking of humor and pledges exist.



3A: Yes. I clearly apprehend objective moral values and have no good reason to deny what I clearly perceive. IE Torturing sentient beings for fun is objective wrong.

No, see, you view that as todays standard of morality. it used to be considered (and still is in some parts of the world) to be a moral imperative to burn witches and stone sinners. it could be considered morally correct to kill a woman who got raped due to her being unpure
vegetarians find it morally repulsive to kill an animal, vegans the same but also killing plantlife
morality is a sliding scale of society with only a few core elements that are naturally put in place for simple biological continuation of the species (aka, dont murder another, dont steal people stuff else that will force them to murder you, etc)



4Q: Do the existence of moral values imply the existence of a God?

Which? the morality of killing a thousand virgins to appease the skull god? the morality to kill the infidels, burn the witches, etc.
no..moral values implies the existance of principles mixed with society norms.



I have reasons for my beliefs whether you think they are convincing or is not what i want to discuss. What I'd like to discuss are the reasons you believe your position. I would like you to give me reasons to believe what you believe. Now pay close attention to what I am asking from the respondents, I am asking for your reasons for your beliefs. I am NOT asking you to reject my reason I am asking you to provide reasons of your own.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 09:14 PM
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a reply to: IkNOwSTuff




I call myself an atheist because I dont believe in god as the term is defined by religious types. I believe everything that is exists is a manifestation of "god" and we ourselves are just fragmented pieces of a universal consciousness.


Disagree with other descriptions of God doesn't make you atheist but your free to proclaim whatever you like.




Why does god need to exist in the form that the bible describes for good and evil to exist?


It doesn't. God would need to exists in the form that can derived from the ontological argument mainly that God would by nature be morally perfect as that very nature is the external referent for morality. Now how we recognize that external referent would be in the realm of moral epistemology and not ontology which is what we were speaking on before so careful not to get those confused.




I believe what we consider good and evil are simply manifestations of our brain chemistry working, something is pleasant its good, something is unpleasant its bad.


On this view the words good and evil seem to lose and actual meaning and are rather subjective to each person. If they are subjective I feel it would be hard not to consider that simply delusions of moral grandeur. By your defintion if someone derives pleasure from raping babies then it is indeed true that it is good to rape babies. This seems rather insane to me(no offense meant). Its kind of like if I was holding a tv remote and you called it a pineapple. If you think raping babies for pleasure is a good thing then we just have a fundamental disagreement about reality and there isn't much more I can say.




Like your beliefs mine are based on faith and observance. For you its faith and belief in the bible and what it says.


My belief in the Christian God is mainly based of the historical evidence we have surrounding the Resurrection. My beliefs that the Christian God will do what he says he will do is based on faith. My belief in a supreme being has little to do with faith and a lot to do with logic and observance. I also think you and I use the word faith differently. You seem to be using it the sense of "belief without proof" where I would use it synonymously with "deep trust".




Sometimes to understand something you need to be able to view it from the outside and I dont think Christians really understand what it is they are believing. You believe the words of Jesus who if he did exist was a decent sorta bloke by all accounts but other than his words the only other proof of god we have are his actions according to the OT and there is no way without having been brainwashed you can believe that god was an all loving god. Even to the people who worshipped him he was horrible. As a christian how do you reconcile that massive gap between what jesus says and gods actual actions?


I would say not as a Christian but as a person I've probably looked into the "horrors" God did in the OT and I find most atheist are ignorant of the circumstances. For example Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham continuously asked God if he would destroy it if their was x amount of righteous people and Abraham reduces the amount multiple times until he gets the idea that God wouldn't do it if any of the people where righteous. I am sure you believe the Bible endorses slavery it doesn't. It actually forbids the type of slavery your thinking of in Exodus 21 "And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death." The slavery the Jews practiced was a form of debt payment and something people willingly went into.




As a christian how do you reconcile that massive gap between what jesus says and gods actual actions?


I would say that Christians that are knowledgeable of Jesus's teachings would know that the standard Jesus set up is far more harsh than that of the OT. Matthew 5 - “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment....“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart"

The standard Jesus setup is harder to hit. We are not to even think of doing immoral things, which we all know is impossible. Thank God for grace. You do understand that in the OT God never just judges a nation. He always gives them a chance to repent. He also knows if they will choose to accept that repentance. Read Lazarus and the Rich man it exemplifies this very point. The rich man begs god to raise someone from the dead to tell his loved ones and God says even if he did it wouldn't work.




Someone somewhere is lying or got their wires crossed, either the OT is false or the NT is false as they completely contradict each other


You seem to have left out the third option which is you are mistaken when it comes to the idea that they contradict one another.

You see I hear this all the time but when I research peoples theses supposed contradictions they don't seem to actually contradict. Lets look at Genesis 5 for example. Surface reading seems to be the most boring passage in the bible until you look into the meaning of each Hebrew name and you'll find it spells a sentence "man is appointed mortal sorrow but the blessed god shall come down teaching his death shall bring the despairing rest". Now this is verbatim what Jesus said he did and is verbatim what Christians believe about Jesus tucked away in the names in genesis 5 intriguing imo. Then you also have Isaiah 53 which describes the Messiah suffering for sin right on par with the old testament. Jesus often gives authority to the OT books:

"3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?"

35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—(referencing Psalm 82 verse 6 I believe)

9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!......13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

16 and they said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read,
“ ‘Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies
you have prepared praise’?”

I could go on and on but hopefully you get the gist. Jesus quotes and attributes the OT writings to God all the time so if we are talking about taking him at his word I have done so.

Salvation in the OT is no different from salvation in the NT both are based on faith wholly apart from the law.

We look at Galatians 3:11 and we find "11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” Then we look in Habakkuk and we find “Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith. Hope that helps



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 09:19 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb




God would need to exists in the form that can derived from the ontological argument mainly that God would by nature be morally perfect as that very nature is the external referent for morality.


Why do you think this? There's nothing moral about the nature of life on earth, or even the nature of the universe around us. Where in the world, or the universe, do you see even a reflection of a glimpse of a model of your so called "morality", let alone a "God" commanding it?


edit on 14-6-2016 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 09:22 PM
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a reply to: Orionx2

Ok give me a reason to believe wannabe dictators created religion to control the masses. Give me hard historical evidence.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 09:27 PM
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a reply to: windword

You dont believe there is such a thing as truth so why should I think what your saying holds any value....



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 09:27 PM
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a reply to: windword

You dont believe there is such a thing as truth so why should I think what your saying holds any value....



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 09:27 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Orionx2

Ok give me a reason to believe wannabe dictators created religion to control the masses. Give me hard historical evidence.

Once again you ignored my entire first post and did not even rebut any of it.. You clearly did not start this thread with the intentions you suggested. Good luck with whatever your actual agenda is.







 
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