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Can we know objective truth?

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posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 06:06 PM
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So it is often said we cannot know an objective truth. After some thought and study into the idea I've come to the conclusion that we can indeed know objective truth. One of the reasons I think people believe this to be true because the argument that we are all trapped in a subjective "bubble" of our own perceptions seems to imply that we cannot actually know anything about the external world. However I feel those who fall into this seemingly intuitive idea are conflating the subjectivity of a person with the subjectivity of truth. Perceptions are tools used by the mind to examine reality. The required use of a tool doesn't mean that tool cant give you some knowledge about the external world. Lets take the analogy of being in a very dark cave with nothing but a flash light. You can see nothing in the cave until the flashlight is applied to illuminate your surroundings. Does the required use of a tool mean that you couldn't see the real cave walls? No. And in the same way using a tool of the mind to gain information about the external world doesn't mean that you don't know what is. Perception is a real phenomena in the universe, and we all have direct knowledge of it. There is at least one objective truth I can know. I exists and experience perceptions. It doesn't matter if everything I perceive is illusory, I have still perceived it and as such perception is still a real phenomena.

The idea that we all are trapped in a subjective "bubble" is in and of itself an objective claim about the way reality is. It seems that minds are rather good at understanding the subjectivity of something, but also seeing the other side of the coin the objectivity of that same something. For example, I could make the statement chocolate ice cream is the best flavor of ice cream. This is quite obviously a subjective opinion, but we can make it objective simply by saying there is at least one mind in the universe believes chocolate is the best flavor of ice cream.


Can we know truth? I think so I've given you a couple of quick and easily understood examples here.
edit on 14-6-2016 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 06:09 PM
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lol I'll wait :-)



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 06:28 PM
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a reply to: DarkvsLight29

Lol appreciate the patience



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 07:12 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb




So it is often said we cannot know an objective truth.


There is no such thing as "objective truth". Truth is in the eye of the beholder and the beholder's perspective. What is true from one perspective may or may not be true from another perspective.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 07:19 PM
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a reply to: windword




There is no such thing as "objective truth". Truth is in the eye of the beholder and the beholder's perspective. What is true from one perspective may or may not be true from another perspective.


Socratic Method:
Is it objectively true the truth is in the eye of the beholder or is it just your subjective opinion that truth is in the eye of the beholder?

Philosophical Rant:
The problem here seems to be that your statement defeats itself. Let us call your claim A, and A is the claim that truth is person-relative and as such only a matter of opinion. If A is true then A is in and of it self person relative and only a matter of your opinion. And yet we can also see that if claim A was true it would have to be objective true and again defeat itself....



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 07:31 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb



Is it objectively true the truth is in the eye of the beholder


Truth doesn't exist. It's just made up authority that comes from a perspective.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 07:48 PM
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a reply to: windword
Socratic Method:
Is it true that truth doesn't exists?

Philosophical Rant:
Again self defeating statement. If it is true that truth doesn't exists then that statement must be false..



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 07:58 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

"Truth" is a fallacy in and of itself. It's a false construct, at best, and a lie at worst.



edit on 14-6-2016 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 08:49 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb




The idea that we all are trapped in a subjective "bubble" is in and of itself an objective claim about the way reality is.


All those perceptions of reality are just perceptions with some validation. But we don't see the world the way it is, colour-perception alone is a bitch as our brain filters all impressions our eyes deliver. The same can be said with regards to our minds, aka the 'rational' part, and it's censor. Huxleys 'Doors of Perception' is a great read, his thoughts on the topic are more than noteworthy.
There's still a lot to learn about the collective unconscious and Jung was no weirdo either. Emotions (or the irrational) are equally part of the human experience, I miss them dearly in your equation. It's a real phenomena as well, did you filter them out or was it just your censor?
Our guts might be the best tool to actually know the truth, at least that's my experience. Said bubbles are often interconnected in strange ways, at least thats my working thesis thus far.




posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 09:24 PM
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a reply to: windword

Your position is incoherent. I don't really have much left to say about it lol....



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 11:13 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The theory of relativity means your experience is relative.

We experience delusion, what is "real" in what we experience is what partakes of the suchness of that which is not illusion.

there is no objective external reality, as such.
The universe is void, what fills the void is the only reality.

So seeking objective reality is a detour.
Reality is experienced within.

When you no longer feel compelled through desire and attachment to your own mental products to descend into an external reality and get lost looking for the truth you have become the truth within the truth itself.
edit on 14-6-2016 by cryptic0void because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 12:00 AM
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a reply to: cryptic0void




The theory of relativity means your experience is relative.


No I am pretty sure that the theory of relativity is about how space and time are relative to one another.


I fail to see what the rest of your post has to do with objective truth.



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 12:03 AM
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a reply to: PublicOpinion

Lets say all the perceptions were illusory would that mean we couldnt know objective truth?



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 04:31 AM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
So it is often said we cannot know an objective truth.

Yes, and rightly so.
Every Perspective is both unique and inherently a unique feature of what is being observed!
That is the very definition of 'subjective'.

And 'objective Truth', by definition, must be ALL inclusive of ALL Truth, ALL Reality!
The entirety of the existence of the entire Universe!
No, you cannot 'Know' such a thing!

The entire argument about objective vs subjective is completely ignorant!
Scientifically and philosophically impossible!

I can see why YOU NEED to 'believe' in 'objective Truth' because your 'beliefs' are so imaginary and tenuous, that you need the imaginary support of vainly imagining the Universe 'agreeing with your beliefs'.
"It isn't just me, mommy, everyone is doing it!"
People validate their/your vain sin like that!
Make believe that some book takes the responsibility away from you.
You wouldn't need to 'believe' in the absurdity of 'objective 'morality' (for instance) if you just Knew the unconditional Love of Jesus, rather than merely, vainly, intellectually 'believing' in it!
NOT the same!

There IS NO DISTINCTION between the 'subject' and the 'object'!
You would Know that if you Knew God, rather then just 'believing'!

Constantly 'defending', constantly 'validating/feeding', constantly 'spreading'... is the three main and first symptoms of a belief infection.
You seem to be displaying these symptoms.

There is no 'objective Truth, there is no 'subjective' Truth, there is Truth, ALL inclusive!
Schizophrenia is the fragmentation of that which is One!



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 05:22 AM
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Yes. There are way of thinking/reasoning tool where you can use logic to transform the subjective into objective. What level of subjective blindness you have on different subjects can be decreased.

And then we have those who use third eye abilities where answers come back to them thru synchronicity on the level of how deep they can think. On extreme levels it is like a compass and the subjective person knows when he/she goes to far in one direction on a duality scale.

People who push for objective normally have the fewest people agreeing with them since they are normally somewhere in the middle of every argument being attacked from both sides.

Have enough measuring points and subjective view decreases.


If you do have a direct link and can measure all creation in real time thru for instance entanglement the you clearly can have an objective truth that is not subjective. Even if the objective truth will include the measurement of all subjective deviations from objective truth in itself. That we are not there yet do not mean it is not possible for someone/some being to know.
edit on 15-6-2016 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 06:11 AM
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a reply to: namelesss

Subjective truth when deviating from objective truth is no truth at all but illusion. The more blindness the more suffering manifested.

If there was no objective truth and all subjective views where equally valid why did Buddha teach what he did? Why do you care if we believe your inclusive view since no view matter anyway if all is equally true?

A person who believe every statement is always believing a false statement.
Statement one.
Gravity pull on earth is on the surface of earth at my location at this moment is above 20m/sec2.
Statement two.
Gravity pull on earth is on the surface of earth at my location at this moment is below or equal to 20m/sec2.

Does not matter what the gravity pull is at my location and time. One is true the other is false. With measurement/awareness one statement can be rejected and objective truth what is/was can be known.

All inclusive all views will always include what is not. Your definition of truth is insane since it makes no distinction between "what is" and "what is not". All you are doing is warping your mind/perception/awareness creating even more confusion.

And if you try to refute this post you are in fact saying my post is not truth rejecting my view from your all inclusive truth claiming this post is false.
edit on 15-6-2016 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 07:45 AM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: PublicOpinion

Lets say all the perceptions were illusory would that mean we couldnt know objective truth?


Great question! I'd guess we can feel it in our hearts and guts. Intuition is quite powerful. But it's more of an irrational thing and I often struggle to fully comprehend what I already seem to know.





posted on Jun, 16 2016 @ 04:11 PM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

That is the common understanding.

The guy in the spaceship going the speed of light and returns to find his family dead and he has not aged.

Thier experience was death, his was not aging.

Relative to their position to the speed of light, relativistically speaking.



posted on Jun, 16 2016 @ 07:32 PM
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a reply to: LittleByLittle

Absolutely beautiful I couldn't have said it better myself.



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 01:26 AM
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originally posted by: LittleByLittle
a reply to: namelesss
Subjective truth when deviating from objective truth is no truth at all but illusion.

The illusion is that Truth can be fragmented!
Schizophrenia is the fragmentation of that which is One!
Truth is Truth is ALL inclusive!
One!
Omni!
To fragment it, as you are doing, and believing it, is the illusion/delusion!
It is an error to attempt to discern between 'object' and 'subject'!
Quantum mechanics has demonstrated that the 'subject' (observer) and object (observed) are inseparable, One!
That any 'debate' regarding the distinction between the two is obsolete thought, beliefs, ignorance.
The terms are obsolete!
Just like 'nothing'!

The more blindness the more suffering manifested.
Suffering is a necessity for humans.
Suffering means, among other things as I have said, to 'allow' (as opposed to 'denying')!
It is in the 'denial', the 'dual-ization' (like your 'subject/object'), of the ego that provides suffering, as in additional Pain.
We can 'suffer' the pain of a broken leg, like suffering the children to come unto me!".
That is healthy.
Denial is unhealthy, and painful.


If there was no objective truth and all subjective views where equally valid why did Buddha teach what he did?

You are presenting a logical fallacy.
Just because Buddha is recorded as saying something doesn't mean that it is some ultimate truth!
To speak is to lie!
To even open the mouth, one must descend from the mountain!
His words are dualistic, egoic, as are all words!
What he said is true, it is also false, and both...;

"All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense." -Robert Anton Wilson

"Do not believe in anything
simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in traditions
simply because they have been handed
down for many generations.
Do not believe in anything
simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything
simply because it is found written in your
religious books.
Do not believe in anything
merely on the authority of your teachers
and elders.
But when, after observation and analysis,
you find anything that agrees with reason,
and is conducive to the good and benefit
of one and all,
then accept it and live up to it.
-- The Buddha's Kalama Sutra


"The fundamental idea of Buddhism is to pass beyond the world of opposites, a world built up by intellectual distinctions and emotional defilement." - D.T. Suzuki (The Essence of Buddhism)



Why do you care if we believe your inclusive view since no view matter anyway if all is equally true?

I am not attempting to spread 'beliefs', merely offer food for contemplation.
So, you imagine that Truth 'doesn't matter' because there is no 'loser', no 'winner' (no 'false' other than in very limited context)?
Truth is irrelevant because it is Truth?
That is quite strange.


A person who believe every statement is always believing a false statement.
Statement one.

The 'belief', in itself, is delusional, schizophrenic, insanity!
The strain of the infection is irrelevant!
The symptomology remains consistent throughout all strains, whether the belief is in Jesus or Freedom or 'free-will' or the Cat in the Hat!


Gravity pull on earth is on the surface of earth at my location at this moment is above 20m/sec2.
Statement two.
Gravity pull on earth is on the surface of earth at my location at this moment is below or equal to 20m/sec2.

Does not matter what the gravity pull is at my location and time. One is true the other is false. With measurement/awareness one statement can be rejected and objective truth what is/was can be known.

You make very specific limited contexts and will fine duality being obvious.
as soon as you lose your artificial/arbitrary conditions, Truth is once again, ALL inclusive!
2+2=4 ONLY in special limited conditions!
Sometimes it = 1!
Sometimes 5!
You have to remove the portion of the Universe that is not 'base ten', for instance, for the truth of 2+2=4 to be 'objective/Universal'!
Your 'local' egoic truths and falsities all add together top make Truth!

"Every kind of partial and transitory disequilibrium must perforce contribute towards the great equilibrium of the whole.." - Rene' Guenon


All inclusive all views will always include what is not. Your definition of truth is insane since it makes no distinction between "what is" and "what is not".

The insanity is in believing that there is anything that 'is not'!
EVERYTHING exists!
Thus, since Reality is predicated on what exists, everything is Real!
Reality is ALL inclusive!
And since Truth is predicated on what exists and what is Real, Truth is, likewise, ALL inclusive!
Thus everything is Truth!
ALL inclusive!
You cannot successfully argue against that.


All you are doing is warping your mind/perception/awareness creating even more confusion.

As "We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are!", perhaps the confusion is yours.
I am really not confused at all, and perfectly able to rationally, logically,philosophically/scientifically support my theories and observations.
Rather than argue and call me crazy, be bold enough to make an atte,pt to at least understand what I am saying, before automatically gainsaying.
I am well aware of what is 'obvious' to the masses.
I am offering you something less 'obvious'.
And less hateful/exclusive/schizophrenic!


And if you try to refute this post you are in fact saying my post is not truth rejecting my view from your all inclusive truth claiming this post is false.

In the limiting paradigm of science and philosophy, your thoughts are erroneous.
And even the error and insanity of your 'beliefs', are features of the Universe/Reality/Truth!



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