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pre pyramid plateau

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posted on Jun, 13 2016 @ 05:52 PM
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well, i dont usually do this sort of thing but, (maybe you heard this line before) i'm gonna do it anyway.
theres not much i haven't read here, about various aspects of monuments of antiquity.
well, you've seen what a zoo it is in this forum, so i also have a contribution
i ve not seen anything as regards why it was set where its set (and please no centre of the landmass cos it isnt, go check or read on) in a local context.
now, i immediately realise there is a very good reason for that, which is, its a stupendously long time ago, and its only out of pure blind chance and the dilligence of historians and archeaologists that we know much of any previous culture
but there are places they have not yet reached
so its fortunate i dont intend to speculate on culture
or on technology in the sense that we understand it
or how the structures were built
or who built them
or when
maybe a little bit of why
it was probably more a case of because
i've looked at these wonderful drawings by perring and co
digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de...
they dont zoom so well but you could use CTRL+
heres a simpler one with good resolution
sentinelkennels.com...

so a little paraphrased background, nothing much about the plateau, some very old stuff on the edge like djets tomb, shepherd people
hereotus' account reflects the egyptians resented building the pyramids and still refered to them as the place of the shepherd .
area inhabited for thousands of years. lots of caves. great pyramid built on a hillock.

simple unambiguous facts . it has a lot of mass.
mass is distributed most in centre tapering evenly, very stable
built on limestone plateau
so if you look back on the user friendly diagram
the subterranean chamber, and the well shaft and grotto

en.wikipedia.org...

you see the hillock indicated, and notice the grotto is at the summit
Karst fenster?
if water has dissolved a path down to another water source passing beneath the hillock in another small cave (where the pit is) and has a higher head of water than the grotto
then you have the fenester
if a rock fell into the well shaft, too big to fall all the way down at one point and too big to be pushed up you would have something like a ram pump, and it would perceptibly beat with a pulse
would anybody like to pick up from here?




edit on 13-6-2016 by username74 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 13 2016 @ 06:32 PM
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Not sure if this is related, but there is a place in Ireland called Newgrange that predates the pyramids and is a passage tomb.
A fascinating place.

Is that the sort of thing you are asking about?


Newgrange - World Heritage Site NewgrangeNewgrange is a 5,200 year old passage tomb located in the Boyne Valley in Ireland's Ancient East. Newgrange was built by Stone Age farmers, the mound is 85 meters (93 yards) in diameter and 13.5 meters (15 yards) high, an area of about 1 acre. A passage measuring 19 meters (21 yards) leads into a chamber with 3 alcoves. The passage and chamber are aligned with the rising sun at the Winter Solstice. Newgrange is surrounded by 97 large stones called kerbstones some of which are engraved with megalithic art; the most striking is the entrance stone. Access to the Newgrange monument is via the Brú na Bóinne Visitors Centre.


BLT



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 01:44 AM
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a reply to: username74

I...can't make out what you're trying to say. Maybe it's late and I'm confused.

However, I can say that
* the site had been used as a burial area since the First Dynasty
* the belief that the underworld (land of the deceased) is in the west goes back to predynastic times (3000 BC< 600 years before Giza)
* that it may have been political - Khufu was using Memphis as his capital city, instead of Abydos. Powerful factions may have been in play there and by moving the government and his burial place to another city, he diminished their influence and gave it to another set of nobles (his family.)



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 10:10 AM
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Re-read... still not making much sense to me (I guess I'm slow.) However the design of the underground chambers is similar to those of earlier tombs. I have [b]The Complete Pyramids book, and it shows how the chambers gradually developed into that plan.

Sneferu's Red Pyramid (not at Giza) shows a very similar underground shape en.wikipedia.org...

That's not the only one, but I'm not near my book and can't list the others. Some of the mastaba tombs (not pyramids) also had the same underground design.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 01:02 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

no byrd you are anything but slow, it s just more an engineering riddle, and i would like to see the offerings



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 01:07 PM
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a reply to: username74

if i give the first clue (and its speculative)that the natural phenomenom possibly inspired the original design of the structure



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 03:22 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

"The Red Pyramid was the third pyramid built by Old Kingdom Pharaoh Sneferu, and is located approximately one kilometer to the north of the Bent Pyramid. It is built at the same shallow 43 degree angle as the upper section of the Bent Pyramid, which gives it a noticeably squat appearance compared to other Egyptian pyramids of comparable scale. Construction is believed to have begun during the thirtieth year of Sneferu's reign."
so to play engineer, bearing in mind this;

so its fortunate i dont intend to speculate on culture
or on technology in the sense that we understand it
or how the structures were built
or who built them
or when
maybe a little bit of why
it was probably more a case of because

i would have to say that
1. the difference between 43 degrees and 52 degrees.
how can you lose the ability to build a steeper or shallower step pyramid ?
if it changed angle it was meant to
which implies this factor is somehow relevant to design
(i note here , that in alot of the reading i have had to do to keep up with you egyptology guys, that sneferu was one of the earlier heads and appears to have had 3 pyramids which appears to be a point of contention amongst you?)
2. " I have The Complete Pyramids book, and it shows how the chambers gradually developed into that plan. "
yes but thats a retrospective assessment of a past infra structure. on the assumption that it was built within an esoteric paradigm. and i am sure this is correct to a degree, and certainly within the remit of ae.
but i must contend there is strong evidence to suggest a very few ancient structues or features are precursors.
the great pyramid is the original. it suggests this in it s very size and location
as an aside i am sure of multiple phases in its development
its interesting you mention the red pyramid, but i'll hold fire for the moment. you have hit on something but i need more to connect all the others to the biggie. i want to see if the first part of my idea holds up to all comers. but they have to know or find out what a ram pump is to even suss the opening post.
p.s. the other pyramid that fascinated me was en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 03:42 PM
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originally posted by: username74
a reply to: Byrd

"The Red Pyramid was the third pyramid built by Old Kingdom Pharaoh Sneferu, and is located approximately one kilometer to the north of the Bent Pyramid. It is built at the same shallow 43 degree angle as the upper section of the Bent Pyramid, which gives it a noticeably squat appearance compared to other Egyptian pyramids of comparable scale. Construction is believed to have begun during the thirtieth year of Sneferu's reign."
so to play engineer, bearing in mind this;

so its fortunate i dont intend to speculate on culture
or on technology in the sense that we understand it


Can I point out that this is like an anthropologist proudly announcing that they don't know engineering or math and then coming up with theories about how we built locomotives?




i would have to say that
1. the difference between 43 degrees and 52 degrees.
how can you lose the ability to build a steeper or shallower step pyramid ?
if it changed angle it was meant to
which implies this factor is somehow relevant to design


... and materials and if you look at the Medium Pyramid of Sneferu, you will see (depending on what you access) that the thing failed halfway through and that they tried several engineering modifications to make it work.


(i note here , that in alot of the reading i have had to do to keep up with you egyptology guys, that sneferu was one of the earlier heads and appears to have had 3 pyramids which appears to be a point of contention amongst you?)

Possibly four. We'll see what the evidence comes up with.


its interesting you mention the red pyramid, but i'll hold fire for the moment. you have hit on something but i need more to connect all the others to the biggie. i want to see if the first part of my idea holds up to all comers. but they have to know or find out what a ram pump is to even suss the opening post.


They didn't use the technology elsewhere (when they could if they had it.) Pyramids are mostly built in cemeteries and many (like Teti and Pepi's) have decoration and text inside and artifacts from the owners (and the occasional mummy fragment (and later full mummies.))



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 04:06 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

sorry about the bold print, not intended

"Can I point out that this is like an anthropologist proudly announcing that they don't know engineering or math and then coming up with theories about how we built locomotives? "

well then maybe they would turn out to be the first anthropologist locomotive tycoon

but i fear it s the technology bit where i misled you. for me a dolerite pounder is a piece of technology and theres a way to use it and only certain ways to develop it. our idea of technology is something personal and individual with a control panel.



"... and materials and if you look at the Medium Pyramid of Sneferu, you will see (depending on what you access) that the thing failed halfway through and that they tried several engineering modifications to make it work."
i will add this to my reading


They didn't use the technology elsewhere (when they could if they had it.) Pyramids are mostly built in cemeteries and many (like Teti and Pepi's) have decoration and text inside and artifacts from the owners (and the occasional mummy fragment (and later full mummies.))

not contesting this. also not trying to imply what we call technology, they just had "savoir faire" and highly developed mathematics. going for structural analysis but pertaining to only a few structures, the rest are as you say within context of ae, at present there is no solid evidence to support but depending on outcome, there may be precedent for revision on other stuctures, but softly, softly...
edit on 14-6-2016 by username74 because: clarity

edit on 14-6-2016 by username74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 05:13 PM
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originally posted by: Byrd
Sneferu's Red Pyramid (not at Giza) shows a very similar underground shape en.wikipedia.org...

The Red Pyramid also has completion dates stamped on the various tiers, IIRC.
Probably why they don't feature it on "Ancient Aliens."

Harte



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 12:16 AM
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originally posted by: username74
a reply to: Byrd

"Can I point out that this is like an anthropologist proudly announcing that they don't know engineering or math and then coming up with theories about how we built locomotives? "

well then maybe they would turn out to be the first anthropologist locomotive tycoon

Uh... not anthropologists. Trust me on this one.



but i fear it s the technology bit where i misled you. for me a dolerite pounder is a piece of technology and theres a way to use it and only certain ways to develop it. our idea of technology is something personal and individual with a control panel.


My definition of tool includes "sticks" and "language" and "ideas."

I've seen pounders, and they are basically 'rocks that someone uses as a tool to hit things over and over again. There's no sophisticated development. Sometimes they attach handles.

I'd like to recommend these pages, written by an excavator at Giza

As to math... their math was used mostly for bureaucratic means (assessing lands and collecting taxes.)

Our understanding of "advanced math" may be different - I'm married to a mathematician and there is no way you could do the kind of math he does with the Egyptian system of notation. They could calculate the volume of a cylindrical grainery and calculate pi (22/7) with ratios and do quadratic equations (simple ones) but fluid dynamics and so forth was beyond them. Wikipedia actually has a nice and up-to-date page on this

They also lacked engineering technology. They may have had pulleys but their lack of hard woods and the presence of the desert changed what they were able to utilize.



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 12:58 PM
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a reply to: Byrd
"As to math... their math was used mostly for bureaucratic means (assessing lands and collecting taxes.)"
well fine, its irrelevant to the analysis. i did not mean to imply that its builders were capable of scalar equations, just that they must have a solid working conceptual knowledge of physics, laws of motion, conservation of mass-energy, pi, area, volume, division. multiplication, subtraction, addition
in light of this then how can they not understand hydrology?
not that they need to. just volume, force, mass, momentum. scale and ratio. oh, and proof of concept and protocols

"I've seen pounders, and they are basically 'rocks that someone uses as a tool to hit things over and over again. There's no sophisticated development. Sometimes they attach handles."
i am having a quite a satisfactory debate with harte on the implications of trying to use such tools, how they were employed and the effects they produced and we have pulled up a small collection of studies which we are currently thrashing around in, here
www.abovetopsecret.com...

"They also lacked engineering technology."
really?
look, you can have all the pyramids, this cannot be said of this structure.
and in light of quotes from your source
"In Egypt, pyramid studies have been conducted since antiquity. The remarkable works of Perring, Lepsius, Petrie, Borchardt, Fakhry and Lauer in the last 2 centuries and the present work of a very very few, has added to our present knowledge. Yet we have not acquired enough information to answer all our questions. Consequently, our knowledge about pyramids remains relatively short."
"Yet no ancient records have been found on: the planning, logistics, building techniques and the general administration of the building project of the pyramid."
well is it possible we have ascribed an innacurate pedigree to this structure?
whats the state of play for the sphinx at this point?



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 10:17 PM
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originally posted by: Byrd
* the site had been used as a burial area since the First Dynasty

Question: What would you say the percentage chance is, that a bunch of gooney-goo-goos turned up at some of these pre-historic sites and simply started burying their leaders there?

How hard is it to admit that no one in this day and age really 'knows' ... that it's all pretty much speculation?



posted on Jun, 16 2016 @ 01:05 AM
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originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: Byrd
* the site had been used as a burial area since the First Dynasty

Question: What would you say the percentage chance is, that a bunch of gooney-goo-goos turned up at some of these pre-historic sites and simply started burying their leaders there?


I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here. I'm tired and emotionally exhausted. It's been a REALLY long week.

If you'll rephrase that I'll be glad to answer it.



posted on Jun, 16 2016 @ 01:13 AM
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originally posted by: username74
a reply to: Byrd
"As to math... their math was used mostly for bureaucratic means (assessing lands and collecting taxes.)"
well fine, its irrelevant to the analysis. i did not mean to imply that its builders were capable of scalar equations, just that they must have a solid working conceptual knowledge of physics, laws of motion, conservation of mass-energy, pi, area, volume, division. multiplication, subtraction, addition
in light of this then how can they not understand hydrology?


I don't think they had a real concept of physics, laws of motion, conservation of mass-energy.


"They also lacked engineering technology."
really?


Man, that was a real lame-brained comment of mine, wasn't it? Of course they had engineering.

Drr.


well is it possible we have ascribed an innacurate pedigree to this structure?

A lot of material has been found since that time, including worker camps, various inscriptions, and (recently) a logbook of stones transported. There's other stuff, too, that makes it pretty firmly Khufu's and not an appropriated structure.

The Egyptians DID appropriate tombs and temples and other objects, but it's pretty obvious to tell when they did.


whats the state of play for the sphinx at this point?


Sorry. It's been an awfully long week and my ancient brain isn't working right. Could you explain what you mean by "state of play"?



posted on Jun, 16 2016 @ 07:02 AM
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a reply to: Snarl

a gooney goo goo?!
are you high?

edit on 16-6-2016 by username74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 16 2016 @ 07:04 AM
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a reply to: Byrd
sorry, its a figure of speech. i mean has it yet become widely accepted the the sphinx is not a creation of khafre, due to its age.
rest up and stop thrashing yourself, buddy


edit on 16-6-2016 by username74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 16 2016 @ 12:01 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

so to clarify i will try and present, for you byrd, because you post altruistic content with a view to educating the young and impressionable, a more coherent explanation.
so if my post is a little abstract its because i was fishing.
i also realise that some of the things i propose may be seen as a severe breach of ettiquette within various branches of academia.
however, too much stoicism.... we defeat our own perspectives of advancement of knowledge.
it may take a while, i was trying to evade the existing paradigm with a view to assessing the implications of the structure and its material.
there is sufficient physical evidence within the structure to suggest the construction was not within the technical remit of the reign of khafre, as portrayed by egyptology.
but thats really the problem of that particular stratum of academia. which is not at all to say that it is incorrect in its conclusions, just that said conclusions are sometimes placed in a chronology based on assumed religious or cultic context.
basically stuff is made to fit.
this is not as ureasonable as portrayed, i know.
but if we are not open to revision then we must claim to hold the final truth.
but i digress, yet again.
this site gives out no tenures, i believe.
and it is a discussion forum

edit on 16-6-2016 by username74 because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-6-2016 by username74 because: stupidity



posted on Jun, 16 2016 @ 12:13 PM
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originally posted by: username74
a reply to: Byrd
sorry, its a figure of speech. i mean has it yet become widely accepted the the sphinx is not a creation of khafre, due to its age.

No. Among academia it was never under consideration, for good reason.
Though there is plenty of debate as to who exactly is responsible for it; Khafre, his son, or some other AE ruler.

Harte



posted on Jun, 16 2016 @ 12:51 PM
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a reply to: Harte

ah ok . i had fallen under the impression that it was khafre but that will be the influence of lehner, no doubt.
the mans like the anti-hancock.
it s more a geological article but heres a link with further info regarding schochs (id i spell it right?) 1991 submission
regarding the sphinx
www.davidpbillington.net...




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