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After Orlando, time to recognize that anti-gay bigotry is not religious freedom: Neil Macdonald

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posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 03:00 PM
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a reply to: onequestion

It is not really a slippery slope if there is zero tolerance for bigotry, no matter the source. Someone should not be able to hide behind their spirituality, nationality, ethnicity, or sexuality, to make something wrong "ok".




posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 03:18 PM
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a reply to: Grambler




How anyone can compare making marriage laws, or bathroom laws, to shooting innocent people is ridiculous. I am sick of this hip progressive agenda, and I am an atheist. We know, its cool to blame Christians, but Muslims are oppressed, and we can never talk ill of them.


What progressive agenda? The one where the Supreme Court ruled that laws that prohibited marriage were unconstitutional? Oh, maybe you mean all those new laws that legislators are putting forward, that sweepingly and progressively allow for "the religious" to violate the constitutional rights of those they don't agree with?



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 03:33 PM
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originally posted by: windword


What progressive agenda? The one where the Supreme Court ruled that laws that prohibited marriage were unconstitutional? Oh, maybe you mean all those new laws that legislators are putting forward, that sweepingly and progressively allow for "the religious" to violate the constitutional rights of those they don't agree with?



No. The agenda that says these attempted laws is the equivalence of killing homosexuals.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 03:38 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

Laws that allow people to refuse housing and shelter, emergency and medial services as well as food and fuel, based on bigoted belief systems, might as well be the same as laws that allow murder based on those same bigoted belief systems.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 03:46 PM
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a reply to: tothetenthpower
Now tell us why the left wing is griping about Chrustians when it was a Muslim guy who did this?



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 03:48 PM
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a reply to: Bone75

He was mentally ill. It makes no difference what he was "chanting" - the alphabet, counting backward from ninety by 3s - singing a Redhot Chili Peppers song......makes no difference if he was a Muslim, or Christian, or Buddhist, or Atheist, or Pimp, or whatever...............

any or all of those could have been going through his mind while he was killing people due to his mental illness.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 03:55 PM
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originally posted by: windword


Laws that allow people to refuse housing and shelter, emergency and medial services as well as food and fuel, based on bigoted belief systems, might as well be the same as laws that allow murder based on those same bigoted belief systems.





Yep, Christian bakers not wanting to make a cake for a gay wedding might as well have murdered them. Thanks for clearing that up.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 03:58 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

If you think that's the extent of the results of those "save our religion" laws, that Republican state legislators have been putting forward state after state, then you've been living under a rock.


edit on 14-6-2016 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 04:04 PM
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originally posted by: windword



If you think that's the extent of the results of those "save our religion" laws, that Republican state legislators have been putting forward state after state, then you've been living under a rock.



I have seen bathroom laws proposed, laws that allow refusal of service for LGBT, laws that want to not allow sharing of health care among lgbt partners.

Please post the proposed laws that are just as bad as murdering gay people



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 04:28 PM
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a reply to: TechniXcality

Except to the fact that atheism is not absent of discrimination, and even mass murders.

I am not saying all atheists are like this, but just take a look at Marx's works and all communist dictatorships which have been or still are atheists yet these have been the very same nations that caused the most horrible crimes against their own populations. From U.S.S.R., to China, to North Korea, to the Vietnam war (and the round ups of people and murders done by the communists in the country before the war) to Cuba, etc.

From 110 million, to 140 million plus people have been murdered under atheist governments in the 19th-20th century. Also take a look at the murders, and attacks to religious people, and churches caused by atheist socialists, communists, anarchists etc in Spain in 1936.

A lot of people want to blame religion when in fact there have been a number of ideologies used for millenia by different crazy people, including atheists, to just murder and cause mayhem.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 04:31 PM
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originally posted by: Liquesence
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You cannot hide behind religion in order to discriminate.


Unfortunately, the whole idea of religion is to discriminate.

Religion tells us what is right and what is wrong. IT IS DISCRIMINATION.

Of course, religion also says it is good to discriminate. And each religion prescribes the kind of discrimination it's followers are expected to act on.

Religion basically says "some things are good", and "other things are bad."

And what is good or bad isn't set by people "voting", but is handed down by "tradition".

Do the good things, and avoid the bad things.

That's discrimination.

If we do all things, regardless of whether they are good or bad, then we're not discriminating, but then neither are we subscribing to any religion either.

You can't have your religion and not discriminate.

In Christianity it is standard interpretation to believe that the Devil is extremely clever and will try to get the good Christian to act against his religion by using persuasive arguments that doing this or that action isn't really against the religion, to try to trick the believer to breaking his vows. The Devil does this right at the beginning in the book of Genesis, when he told Adam and Eve that they wouldn't die if they ate from the tree of knowledge, but would get wisdom instead, and Eve fell for it, and even got Adam to eat the fruit.

It is the Devil's job to tempt the righteous and trick him into breaking his vows, and do things against his religion.

But, the holy book is clear, what the believer should do.

What the Christian should do, when confronted by someone requesting they act against their religion, is to hand the Holy Book to the person and request them that they show which verse in scripture would be consistent with the act. After all, many people have not read the entire scriptures, and there might be some part of the book that proclaims the act good. But, until sure, the person can only act in good conscience on the parts he knows about.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 04:50 PM
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Sorry but Orlando was not anti-gay bigotry.

From all reports now, he was a self loathing homosexual or he was jilted by a lover and couldn't handle it. He used ISIS and anti-gay bigotry as the excuse and that was B.S.

As much as the truth will hurt the LGBT community, even add insult to injury, we all now know the real motive and they must come to grips that they too, like every other demographic have mass murderers in their mist. This act was committed by a Homosexual against his peers. Pure and simple, this was not the fault of anyone but him.

Words did not do this. Free expression did not do this. Religious freedom did not do this. A Homosexual did this and that is now a proven fact.

Please don't expect the world to worship at the feet of your community. You have just as much vile coming out of your group as any other. Your side is not immune to hate speech as defined by any other group. Just because you say its bigotry does not make it so. If everyone claimed disagreement as hate speech we would all be silenced.

I am truly sad for the 49 that were murdered and for their families that were left behind. I do not wish that on any group. Having said that, we just don't toss reason out the window and use this as an opportunity to stifle free speech, even if that free speech hurts your feelings.
edit on 14-6-2016 by JimBielson because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 04:56 PM
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a reply to: AMPTAH

Unfortunately the whole idea of atheism is to discriminate.

Atheism tells us what is right and what is wrong. IT IS DISCRIMINATION.

Of course, atheism also says it is good to discriminate. And each atheistic doctrine prescribes the kind of discrimination it's followers are expected to act on.

Atheism basically says "some things are good", and "other things are bad."

And what is good or bad isn't set by people "voting", but is handed down by "tradition".

Do the good things, and avoid the bad things.

That's discrimination.
...

Replace the word religion for atheism and you can say the same thing. Of course, there are parts in your diatribe in which you specifically target all religions, and in itself your entire diatribe is nothing but discrimination buried in a sea of lies.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 05:00 PM
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originally posted by: DeadFoot

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

Well said! All Muslims aren't bad, because this one was, but all Christians are bad, and should lose their right to free religion, because, gee, some dare to state that something is a sin.


Hardly what's being said by anyone here.

Classic persecution complex.

Muslim mans hoots up gay clubs, therefore Christian religion is "under attack".

Please.


If ou don't see it, then you haven't read all of the posts. Some are claiming that all religion is bad, because of this act by this Muslim man, and some even claim that Christianity is more worthy of blame than Islam. Read through the threads, and you can see the comments.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 05:01 PM
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a reply to: Bone75

If you want to focus on it, that's fine. It doesn't mean he wasn't mentally ill.

Don't even make me bring up the guy who walked into a Wichita church and gunned down an abortion doctor.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 05:03 PM
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This is all well beyond any one ideology, religion, race, or whatever other pigeonhole you want to place it in. This is an indictment of humanity in general, and our inherent evilness to one another. Walking back through history we see every imaginable group of people that has ever walked the earth has taken a beating from another group that is stronger. None are immune from our evilness including white males. I can easily find any group or nation on this planet that has been enslaved, abused, and murdered mercilessly at some point.
This is not to belittle what happened by any means, but every time something like this happens, it devolves into the specific group that was attacked. Well guess what, tomorrow a group of women will be abducted and sold into slavery somewhere. Elsewhere, a bunch of kids will be hacked to death in a civil war, etc, etc.
We are evil, an abomination to nature. I was raised a Christian, but question my faith every minute of every day, especially when I see this crap. I ask why a Creator can make such a perfect nature, yet plant pure evil within it to spoil every single day.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 05:04 PM
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originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: AMPTAH

Unfortunately the whole idea of atheism is to discriminate.

Atheism tells us what is right and what is wrong. IT IS DISCRIMINATION.



You have no clue.

You are completely wrong.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 05:07 PM
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originally posted by: DeadFoot

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
We already have laws against discrimination, and against violent crimes. What seems to be proposed in the OP is laws against religious freedom, and that would be bad for everyone.


Not really. The OP literally has calls for exactly zero laws.


Oh, really? From page one, one of the OPs comments -



Nope, but actions based in bigotry yes. Such as passing 'religious freedom laws'.


Better rethink that one.


originally posted by: DeadFoot

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

How many would want a law that required them to attend this or that religious service? Or, better yet, requiring someone to state that they believed this or that? No one would want that, I am guessing, save folks like the terrorists. Any law that restricted what people were allowed to believe would be equally as bad. Are we to simply toss out the Constitution?


What exactly is the scenario described that you are combating? It seems to not exist... I believe there is a call-out for a fallacy here. I mean, if the sermon that you really claim to deserve to attend is one that is not only blatantly violent, but is incredibly criminally illegal, what "religious freedom" really deserves to be protected for it?


No one is talking about "blatantly violent" or "criminally illegal" services; those are already, oh, yeah, illegal. What is being discussed is a right to disagree, or to dislike, some practice or whatever. You do know there are places where it's illegal for a pastor to call homosexuality a sin, right? That's a violation of rights.



posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 05:20 PM
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posted on Jun, 14 2016 @ 05:20 PM
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originally posted by: lakenheath24
This is not to belittle what happened by any means, but every time something like this happens, it devolves into the specific group that was attacked. Well guess what, tomorrow a group of women will be abducted and sold into slavery somewhere. Elsewhere, a bunch of kids will be hacked to death in a civil war, etc, etc.
We are evil, an abomination to nature. I was raised a Christian, but question my faith every minute of every day, especially when I see this crap. I ask why a Creator can make such a perfect nature, yet plant pure evil within it to spoil every single day.


We had perfection and then we jacked it up in the garden. Free will comes with a price. Evil has always been here. That doesn't mean we have to act the part of Evil. You were brought up as a Christian and following those principals is not wrong. Some twist the meaning of being a Christian but I suspect deep down, we all know what the rules are as laid out in the bible and I doubt one of those is to murder our fellow man, at least not with the new covenant.

God didn't do this. Some mortal did and I suspect facing God and God looking back with disappointment is a hell in and of it self. It does make me wonder where these souls end up..

The thing is you didn't do it either so don't beat yourself up about it. Pray, reflect, and carry on fellow Christian!




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