Orlando Nightclub Massacre

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: neo96

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: neo96

why cant' a mass shooting also be an act of terrorism?

Because TERRORIST use what ever is around them.

There's been 40 years of proof.

so a terrorist that shoots a mass group of people with a gun doesn't count as a mass shooting in your mind? that makes no sense

No it doesn't.

Not a mass shooting. A TERRORIST ATTACK.

There is a difference especially how LEO handles it, and the US government handles it.

I know why some are calling it a 'mass shooting' though.

Because it takes heat off the epic failure of the NSA and the surveillance state, and the EPIC failure of the administrations foreign policy.

And it creates OPPORTUNITY to push draconian LAWS.

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: neo96

why cant' a mass shooting also be an act of terrorism?

It can be. But failing to point out that it specifically IS an act of terrorism when the country it happens in launched the WAR ON TERRORISM, makes it soooooo, pointless?

Brainwashing comes in many different types of detergents.

This, narrative, is but one of those.

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: DancedWithWolves
a reply to: JimBielson

This man was investigated twice, and cleared by the FBI twice with both investigations closed. If someone is willing to die to kill you, we can't make you "safe." Life comes with risks. Freedom comes with risks.

Enjoy each day you are alive with more tolerance and compassion and less blame and hate. That alone makes you safe. The rest, even eating bacon, is a roll of the dice.

Peace

He was NOT cleared by the bureau. He was interviewed twice and the results were inconclusive.

They are NOT the same thing when it comes to an investigation.

That is not the point the original poster was making. Why dont you quote the whole thing as opposed to quoting out of context?

To use a famous phrase, what difference at this point does it make? They failed miserably either way they left the investigation. From the top down, our government failed us.

a reply to: neo96

You said it better. I agree with your statement.

originally posted by: JimBielson

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: JimBielson

ill repeat myself, congress and the nra does not want stricter gun laws. they block obama. obama wants stricter gun laws on people on watch lists but he can't do it because conservatives wont let him. what exactly do you want him to do? convict people that havent done anything yet? put anyone in prison that looks shady?

No, I expect him to do his job with the tools he has. You further my suspicion by saying Obama's hands are tied. As many tools that he / they have, that we know about and many we dont this guy was free to slaughter. Just because someone says no, you cant have that does not mean you throw a tantrum and just let a massacre take place.

That is exactly what Obama did. He knew the target and he was warned about the terrorist that did the deed. That is all we need to know.

when you label him a terrorist before he does anything wrong is where you are mistaken. there's lots of people on the government watchlist, you're saying they should all be in prison for thought crime. thats the essence of fascism and it goes against american law and what we stand for. innocent until proven guilty. i dont expect for the president to imprison someone that hasnt broken any law. the fact that violence happens doesnt mean he fails as a president, that means the the terrorist fails at being a human. the blame is on the terrorist.

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: Konduit

we could have said the same thing about christians at one point. christianity has had the luxury of secularism. there is no reasons why muslims cant live a secular life. most do, most interpret islam in a non violent way, just like christians chose to do. moderation in islam is obviously more common in western culture.

Sure! Just let them do it for 500 yrs in their own countries first.

Until then, keep them out of conflicting societies?

a reply to: Liquesence

You really think the US is exceptional? Ha... that's pretty tired.

It's almost a religious sentiment isn't it? American exceptionalism.. yeah, did your politicians tell you that?

Pfft...

originally posted by: neo96

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: neo96

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: neo96

why cant' a mass shooting also be an act of terrorism?

Because TERRORIST use what ever is around them.

There's been 40 years of proof.

so a terrorist that shoots a mass group of people with a gun doesn't count as a mass shooting in your mind? that makes no sense

No it doesn't.

Not a mass shooting. A TERRORIST ATTACK.

There is a difference especially how LEO handles it, and the US government handles it.

I know why some are calling it a 'mass shooting' though.

Because it takes heat off the epic failure of the NSA and the surveillance state, and the EPIC failure of the administrations foreign policy.

And it creates OPPORTUNITY to push draconian LAWS.

ok well thats your opinion. this was a mass shooting by a terrorist. was this a terrorist attack? yes. was this carried out by a mass shooter? yes. the two are not exclusive from each other. it can be a terrorist mass shooting, because that's what happened.

furthermore i think we should have stricter gun laws specifically those that prevent people on watch lists from obtaining guns.

originally posted by: JimBielson

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: JimBielson

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: JimBielson

right so out of all those muslims that were checked, where this american born terrorist on that list?

I think you use the term "checked" very loosely. Again, this American born terrorist was on a list, a FBI list. He was on a list that Obama and his minions decided to ignore. If he is going to ignore an American born Muslim Terrorist, what do you think he is ignoring with those 680,000 his is letting in will nilly? It really doenst take much reasoning and logic to question his motives here. I think we all know exactly what Obama is doing.

so you would hate obama for nsa and spying on us, then you hate him for not doing enough? should he stick a wire up our butts? because then we'd be safe and you couldnt hate on him for not doing his job. its a loose-loose situation for conservatives, obama is either fringing on our privacy or he's not keeping us safe.

Man you are fringe.. His job is to protect Americans. He failed and you seem to want to deflect from that. If he is not man enough to do his job he needs to step down. Whos fault is this? Answer the question already... Its not mine because I am a conservative.

Are you saying Obama with his pen and his phone couldn't do anything about this but he can by executive fiat do others? Give me a break already...

I expect Obama to go about the job of protecting America. He had a warning on location, he had a warning about the Muslim Terrorist getting ready to blow.

How much more do we need to say our President is incompetent and that incompetence led to a massacre last night?

Look, the president is not all knowing, it is absolutely ridiculous that you think anyone could have stopped this going off Isis plans to attack Florida soon. There are millions of floridians and thousands of square miles to cover and thousands of seconds within which an attack can occur.

There will continue to be terror attacks as long as we live in a free society. We could monitor everything and the terrorists would just avoid communications in the country. It just can't be stopped completely no matter what, at least it won't be stopped for decades to centuries, because only once the ideas that cause the radical Muslims to attack have disappeared will the attacks stop.

a reply to: Shamrock6

CNN reports he was cleared twice and both investigations were closed. Sometimes people don't do enough bad, until they do. Mental illness is a tough one and since we can't put a cast on it, we ignore it at our own risk. This guy lost it and took a lot of people down with him. It's horrible. I agree. Was it preventable. That is not so clear. He was a courthouse security guard. He clearly had access to weapons, even in his work.

originally posted by: ColdWisdom
About a year ago I had predicted something like this would happen. I was even having the conversation with my former boss, owner of Honey Pot in Tampa.

All of his security personnel are armed at Honey Pot and there are only two ways in and two ways out, front door (usually at least one cop there) and back door in the alley...

I just texted him to see what his thoughts are on the issue. Although I doubt he will respond to me today.

First, I hope that your friends are all alright. Not through the whole thread yet, but saw that you have some in that area.

As for this post - I was just hearing that the shooter blocked the club door, and that might be one reason for the high numbers of victims. Really hope all club owners can come up with some way to avoid this sort of problem.

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: JimBielson

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: JimBielson

ill repeat myself, congress and the nra does not want stricter gun laws. they block obama. obama wants stricter gun laws on people on watch lists but he can't do it because conservatives wont let him. what exactly do you want him to do? convict people that havent done anything yet? put anyone in prison that looks shady?

No, I expect him to do his job with the tools he has. You further my suspicion by saying Obama's hands are tied. As many tools that he / they have, that we know about and many we dont this guy was free to slaughter. Just because someone says no, you cant have that does not mean you throw a tantrum and just let a massacre take place.

That is exactly what Obama did. He knew the target and he was warned about the terrorist that did the deed. That is all we need to know.

when you label him a terrorist before he does anything wrong is where you are mistaken. there's lots of people on the government watchlist, you're saying they should all be in prison for thought crime. thats the essence of fascism and it goes against american law and what we stand for. innocent until proven guilty. i dont expect for the president to imprison someone that hasnt broken any law. the fact that violence happens doesnt mean he fails as a president, that means the the terrorist fails at being a human. the blame is on the terrorist.

Is that really what you got out of my post? Here, let me slow it down for you. He was on a terrorist watch list. He was under investigation. I said nothing about the thought police. You people are amazing...

He should have been flagged for any weapons purchases and shadowed after that. This was no snowflake as you describe him to be. He wasn't as innocent as the wind driven snow. There is a reason the feds were on him and now there is a reason they let him go off like a bomb. They should have been on him as soon as he loaded those weapons into his car. That is their job, not ours!

And yes, Obama failed as president in this case. He lost a battle. He failed, he is indeed a failure today. Let's hope he does better tomorrow AND without blaming inanimate objects.

a reply to: vjr1113


Considering how many individuals are shot daily, and in the occasional mass shootings, the stance by our Presidential Administration and Congress is absolutely insane. Until scientists learn how to erase our violent side, guns should only be shipped to law enforcement and the military.

Hello.

I am not going back and reading through 82 pages of posts. If anyone has any current (as of now) information regarding what has been discovered relating to this event, I would appreciate it if you shared some links or some info or whatever. I just joined ATS so I don't know if they have Private inboxes or PMs or what.

I certainly have opinions regarding this event as well as on topics that are both directly and tangentially linked to this event. However, I do not think anyone benefits from my sharing of these views and opinions. I simply want to know the facts relating to this event, if they can be found out.

Thanks for your time everyone.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: vjr1113


Considering how many individuals are shot daily, and in the occasional mass shootings, the stance by our Presidential Administration and Congress is absolutely insane. Until scientists learn how to erase our violent side, guns should only be shipped to law enforcement and the military.

BS....As long as there are violent people, I want the god-given right to arm myself, protect myself and my family. As they say, "When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away". Your reasoning is what is absolutely insane.

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: DancedWithWolves
a reply to: JimBielson

This man was investigated twice, and cleared by the FBI twice with both investigations closed. If someone is willing to die to kill you, we can't make you "safe." Life comes with risks. Freedom comes with risks.

Enjoy each day you are alive with more tolerance and compassion and less blame and hate. That alone makes you safe. The rest, even eating bacon, is a roll of the dice.

Peace

He was NOT cleared by the bureau. He was interviewed twice and the results were inconclusive.

They are NOT the same thing when it comes to an investigation.

He was interviewed twice and there were no confirmed ties to terrorism.

a reply to: vjr1113

ok well thats your opinion. this was a mass shooting by a terrorist

Alright then.

Name any OTHER 'mass shooting' where the shooter pledges allegiance to a terrorist group like ISIS.

Those that are going around calling it a 'mass shooting' are pushing intellectual dishonesty.

Don't forget the shooter was investigated by the FBI TWICE for terrorist ties and found 'nothing'.

And in this persons opinion most likely had to cave in to political pressures to stop.

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: neo96

originally posted by: vjr1113

originally posted by: neo96

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: neo96

why cant' a mass shooting also be an act of terrorism?

Because TERRORIST use what ever is around them.

There's been 40 years of proof.

so a terrorist that shoots a mass group of people with a gun doesn't count as a mass shooting in your mind? that makes no sense

No it doesn't.

Not a mass shooting. A TERRORIST ATTACK.

There is a difference especially how LEO handles it, and the US government handles it.

I know why some are calling it a 'mass shooting' though.

Because it takes heat off the epic failure of the NSA and the surveillance state, and the EPIC failure of the administrations foreign policy.

And it creates OPPORTUNITY to push draconian LAWS.

ok well thats your opinion. this was a mass shooting by a terrorist. was this a terrorist attack? yes. was this carried out by a mass shooter? yes. the two are not exclusive from each other. it can be a terrorist mass shooting, because that's what happened.

The point is a terrorist would still have carried out the attack with a bomb, or a chemical weapon, or a car, or by poisoning food, whatever. Getting rid of their guns would not have stopped the attack. And getting rid of guns is impossible anyway since the black market for them would exist for decades with so many in the country already, and the demand for them by criminals extremely high.

It is just a fantasy that banning guns would accomplish anything, how has that worked in Europe. Why is the left unable to use logic, it is infuriating.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: vjr1113


Considering how many individuals are shot daily, and in the occasional mass shootings, the stance by our Presidential Administration and Congress is absolutely insane. Until scientists learn how to erase our violent side, guns should only be shipped to law enforcement and the military.

Well good luck with that and trying to get 2/3 of the states to ratify. Why not strip out the entire constitution. I am sure there are amendments that have killed many people. Heck, the ability to freely move throughout the country has killed more people than guns. I say we restrict movement of all peoples everywhere in this great land.