Civilization And Savages

a reply to: username74

besides it was furry texan who typed it, not you. i chimed in on your post because you pulled it into the narrative.
because.... i feel the use of it in the context we were discussing harks back to the old idea of an ice age as a static condition where people were marching north and south winter and summer throwing sticks at random megafauna they were stalking
ya feel me?
or maybe you are a little young to remember that

Writing seems to be a factor, to me.

I mean, ya gotta write stuff down eventually, for others and future generations.

Right?

a reply to: username74

That definition is written in the modern context, such as this one,

Migration (human) is the movement of people from one place in the world to another for the purpose of taking up permanent or semipermanent residence, usually across a political boundary. An example of "semipermanent residence" would be the seasonal movements of migrant farm laborers.

but the definition is not limited to that context.
and please note the highlighted passage.

Early human migrations and expansions of archaic and modern humans across continents began 2 million years ago with the migration out of Africa of Homo erectus. This was followed by the migrations of other pre-modern humans including H. heidelbergensis, the likely ancestor of both modern humans and Neanderthals. Finally, Homo sapiens ventured out of Africa around 100,000 years ago, spread across Asia around 60,000 years ago and arrived on new continents and islands since then.

Homo erectus migrated from out of Africa via the Levantine corridor and Horn of Africa to Eurasia during the Early Pleistocene,

Early Human Migrations

Human migration[ is the movement by people from one place to another with the intention of settling temporarily or permanently in the new location. The movement is typically over long distances and from one country to individuals, family units or in large groups.

History of Human Migration

Come on Byrd, individuals perambulate and a population can perambulate, but when they do it the purpose of resettlement its a migration.

I'm surprised I am even having this discussion of meaning, because it's a rediculous notion that humans don't migrate,
and in the context of animals, what are they doing, moving from place in the world to settle in another place, they just happen to tied down to feeding or breeding patterns, and a programmed to return from whence they came(instinctive behaiviour) they have no choice in the matter its just what they do, we how ever have a choice as to migrate or not, even if that choice is limited to leave or die, we still ahve that choice.

and BTW the movements of hunter gatherer societies as they move from one seasonal food source to another seasonal food source is in fact a migration, and its a migration in the same context that animals migrate, in that they return each year.

Come people, please don't succumb cranial rectosis.

a reply to: punkinworks10

owww cmon buddy, i am not nipping at you? yes, technically what you say is correct
however, as our language is just an internal dictionary, which if we are to communicate concepts and ideas, the picture for cabbage in my head must be the same as the picture for cabbage in your head. and in this context saying humans are migratory in the same sentence as migrating animals implies we all flew south for the winter (yes, now i stretch the point) so just to say, its important to refine the point or you will never fare so well in a debate with some of the old stalwarts here even if you are correct

a reply to: punkinworks10

"even if that choice is limited to leave or die, we still ahve that choice. "
yeah but dying aint much of a livin

a reply to: username74

"and BTW the movements of hunter gatherer societies as they move from one seasonal food source to another seasonal food source is in fact a migration, and its a migration in the same context that animals migrate, in that they return each year."

and you cant say its a species wide phenomenon, it s an enviromental precedent and its relative only to that specific enviroment

see how i duck and weave, because your hits are not on precisely on target
you getting this grasshopper.
this # will develop your analytical faculties in a world full of nonsense

a reply to: username74


"Come on Byrd, individuals perambulate and a population can perambulate, but when they do it the purpose of resettlement its a migration."

yes, but retrospectively and from our perspective, and its incremental movement
they didnt go "aw # it, lets migrate", they said hey the grass looks greener over there, or these new guys in town are pretty creepy lets bug out to that valley you heard about or saw when you wandered as a young un.
hence my point about enviromental factors
and now you can see the process of you and i refining our internal dictionaries as pertains to migration
so you would maybe now concur thats what we are in fact discussing rather than any actual example of migration

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: punkinworks10

no, migration is seasonal, like birds moving with the seasons
it is a repeated usually annual process
walking somewhere is not migration

Some cultures followed herds of animals - animals that are migrational.
Thus they too were defacto migrational cultures.

Several still do this today, to some extent.

Harte

originally posted by: Willtell
It’s a question of who is the real savage the primitive jungle dwellers or the supposed modern and sophisticated people of today’s technological “civilization”

The same civilization that created the atomic bomb so one day we all can go

Puff…

Then who’s the real savage?

In Anthropology, "civilized" doesn't equate to "nice."
This has led the field toward not using the term "civilization" at all, due to the semantics games that naysayers like to play, along with constant misuse of the term in the media.

Harte

a reply to: username74

and in this context saying humans are migratory in the same sentence as migrating animals implies we all flew south for the winter (yes, now i stretch the point)

BTW geese and ducks arent the only migrating animals, and all migration don't have to due with seasonal changes, although many are driven by it.
So, tell me what is the difference between geese that fly south for the winter(they don't around here anymore, they just stay put through the winter), and the high land herdsman who takes his herds 200 miles down the mountains to lowlands, for winter.

a reply to: punkinworks10

So, tell me what is the difference between geese that fly south for the winter(they don't around here anymore, they just stay put through the winter), and the high land herdsman who takes his herds 200 miles down the mountains to lowlands, for winter.

now you ve let yourself in for it there!
you made the same mistake again
the geese do it out of instinct and magnetite in the brain enables them to acheive this par exellence (theres a number of current theories why this may be changing [the eels were the first thing we noticed to deviate wildly from there assumed traditional patterns a few decades ago]) and the herdsman, well you are actually talking of the migration of his herd. either they stay and die or they go , he as a human has to make his choice of how hes going to live or die (but presume hes going to try for the former) and we are particular of the animals not because we notice and adapt to changes, just that we give a #
we have a long term conception of the future and therefore the past and this is key to all anthropological discussions

a reply to: Harte

posted on Jun, 12 2016 @ 09:03 AM
link quote reply


" originally posted by: username74
a reply to: punkinworks10

[ no, migration is seasonal, like birds moving with the seasons
it is a repeated usually annual process
walking somewhere is not migration]


"Some cultures followed herds of animals - animals that are migrational.
Thus they too were defacto migrational cultures.

Several still do this today, to some extent.

Harte"

i believe this point was qualified here

"owww cmon buddy, i am not nipping at you? yes, technically what you say is correct
however, as our language is just an internal dictionary, which if we are to communicate concepts and ideas, the picture for cabbage in my head must be the same as the picture for cabbage in your head. and in this context saying humans are migratory in the same sentence as migrating animals implies we all flew south for the winter (yes, now i stretch the point) so just to say, its important to refine the point or you will never fare so well in a debate with some of the old stalwarts here even if you are correct"

emphasis- "so just to say, its important to refine the point or you will never fare so well in a debate with some of the old stalwarts here even if you are correct"

a reply to: username74
I made the same point about the word "civilization."

Harte

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: punkinworks10

"even if that choice is limited to leave or die, we still ahve that choice. "
yeah but dying aint much of a livin

ah, thats how you do it, sorry still learning this site.

and this is emblematic of the exuberance of youth, but we as groups over come our obstacles with a combination of enthusiasm, EXPERIENCE and blind luck if we are lucky.
thats why longer lived animals are more intelligent, from tool use to meta tool use (using a tool to make a tool), because they have grandparents, in short. it s good for your frontal cortex.
the hawks are probably aware at some level that the rodent population is dropping but, they just carry on
the crows (corvids) are not so daft. longer memories and plenty of side resources

originally posted by: Harte
a reply to: username74
I made the same point about the word "civilization."

Harte

how could i forget. we also had the word culture
or maybe it was byrd i was discussing that with on another thread, i beg your pardon, ill have a look and paste it

sorry for the off topic aside, but everytime i see this thread on myats, i read it as "civilization and sausages". Then i get excited to read about ancient peoples food.

then i think about what punkingworks told us about the ancients of the SW recycling food from holes full of poop. By comparison, ill take a big mac any day.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
sorry for the off topic aside, but everytime i see this thread on myats, i read it as "civilization and sausages". Then i get excited to read about ancient peoples food.

then i think about what punkingworks told us about the ancients of the SW recycling food from holes full of poop. By comparison, ill take a big mac any day.

New twist on the meaning of "sausage."

Harte

a reply to: punkinworks10

Point taken. My remarks were incorrect.

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: punkinworks10

So, tell me what is the difference between geese that fly south for the winter(they don't around here anymore, they just stay put through the winter), and the high land herdsman who takes his herds 200 miles down the mountains to lowlands, for winter.

now you ve let yourself in for it there!
you made the same mistake again
the geese do it out of instinct and magnetite in the brain enables them to acheive this par exellence (theres a number of current theories why this may be changing [the eels were the first thing we noticed to deviate wildly from there assumed traditional patterns a few decades ago]) and the herdsman, well you are actually talking of the migration of his herd. either they stay and die or they go , he as a human has to make his choice of how hes going to live or die (but presume hes going to try for the former) and we are particular of the animals not because we notice and adapt to changes, just that we give a #

we have a long term conception of the future and therefore the past and this is key to all anthropological discussions

The voluntary aspect was what I had in mind, but I see that the definition also includes those who follow the migrations... so I stand corrected there.