Civilization And Savages

a reply to: peskyhumans

Your obvious religion driven ideology is quite flawed.

There are 88 million Communist part members in a country of 1.375 billion, that has a christian population of less than 14 million. Christianity has been in china for more than 1400 years, i dont think the next 15 years are going to change much.

While I respect peoples faith, not matter what form it takes, you have gone the path of the nonsensical.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Im not sure mazlow would allow for a people to swell in numbers without agrarian culture to support it.

beat me to it.
couldnt think of a nice way to say it. maybe darwin

a reply to: peskyhumans

why are you perpetuating the 19th century view that religion is a civilising force?
did i miss a meeting?
especially christianity. tell that to a pagan

a reply to: punkinworks10

he may be right insofar as the use of religion as a formative bond for culture. Gobleke Tepe seems to be the current "ground zero" for a lot of talk about domestication and religion.

Christianity was a framework used to bind the crumbling Roman Empire. It was useful, and continues to be useful, as a common power structure.

Unfortunately, given the international nature of religious power structures, it may have outlived its usefulness.

But i think it stops there, and i'd hardly paint Christianity's influence on humankind as "positive" by any stretch. I think we'd have been better off with rationalism and paganism.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Gobleke Tepe seems to be the current "ground zero" for a lot of talk about domestication and religion

imo thats because it pushed back the timeframe back so far. the mainstream huntergatherers arent supposed to be skilled megalithic sculpter, kind of semi nomadic animists with some kind of complex culture burying their temples for thousands of years (note the orkney tradition of ritualising the hearth then adding a standing stones then a barrow then stone circle, effectively burying it) without having the consideration to leave a few bits of pottery or at least try farming.

kulturschocksteinzeit.twoday.net...

theres alot of animistic stuff in gobekli and some weird stuff like the totem with the faces smashed off
anyway
what i meant to say was i think religion and "ceremonial purposes" have always been a catch all answer
so you see the big platform thing they found in petra. little city like that in the middle of a desert all on its own.
years ago i learnt about this tactic for risk free trade. it was described to me as an arabic market or arabian, i forget but its a very old method and the gist is this.
at a certain prearranged time and place people who wish to trade whatever for whatever and dont wish their identity known or feel the other party is a threat can do so by leaving out what they wish to sell at a prearranged time and retreating . then after a day they can return and see the offered trade, a corresponding pile.
things are then taken from the offered pile if the corresponding is not deemed sufficient. or new piles can be set up if additional is desired, of an example of the thing required.
trading finishes when both piles are left for one turn of the trade then each pile is collected ,seperately by its new owners and ritual complete until the next scheduled market.
the same process can be conducted for imformation exchange with writing or two intermediarys.
maybe thats what all these old platforms are, like baalbek etc and all those other old places built on and on,
so these ancient folk wandered the earth observed, collected novelties, small amounts of resourse come together for a few months for their various agm s, exchange ideas, trade, interbreed, fabricate experiment,maybe even form longterm agendas and projects
and with the above system enemies can trade also
everyones a winner
could have gone on for many thousands of years
any takers?

a reply to: username74

the silk road crosses through that general area. and, as mentioned earlier by i think punkinworks, the land mass lends itself to lots of travel and dynamic interaction.

while the silk road really dates mostly to the 2000bc timeframe (as best as I can tell), i'd be surprised if it wasn't more like it was the primary method of traversing that landmass going back tens of thousands of years.

roads today tend to follow trails that animals used long before humans decided to build roads. And wherever animals decided to migrate, humans likely would be found.

your trade idea is interesting. I'd expect that if we looked along "choke points" in the area of the silk road, we could find other truly ancient constructs.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

yeah so if we extrapolate a little, going way back, it doesnt have to be a traderoute , just an place of significance (meteorite impact, or plentiful resource, tradition) and as we spread out (the tendrils of exploration were wiped out and isolated often, for sure) we set up various rendez-vous ,and at a certian celestial time we return and
" wandered the earth, observed, collected novelties, small amounts of resourse come together for a few months for their various agm s, exchange ideas, trade, interbreed, fabricate experiment,maybe even form longterm agendas and projects "
and evetually building platforms, areas, the natural thing to do where you wished to maintain your links and traditions over time and a semi nomadic existance
the rv s are later adopted,incorparated or hidden and destroyed by offshoots and become say the trilothon, or maybe a pyramid and cain kills abel and erases him from history by returnees or invaders wishing to settle permenantly

so with the rv s you basically have the possibility of an original or continuous body of knowledge and traditions which sounds like a base for an austere sort of technology and culture. imformation and small things slowly working their way back to the centre of the diaspora/s forming .....something,
but due to elemental and climatic issues and of course a tiny dispersed population, there was widespread isolation/dislocation


not all animals migrate and bad times aside you were probably tripping over potential food sources, when we hunt we are ambush predators
there are other aspects of tech such as amazonian indians putting in thousands of years trial and error and intuitive research creating a vast library of botanical (as pertains to their every day needs) knowledge
so i guess i was trying to say that tradition is stronger than religion
and religion often is disguised as tradition
i mean we are happy to credit these guys with preserving and recording , through divers methods, a sometimes suprising body of knowledge about the sky but when it comes to getting on in the world or preserving another body of knowledge about say, metallurgy,
and the rate of decay for iron in contact with moisture is rapid,
the archeaologists wont give them any credit. unless it s moving enormous rocks. then its no problem

a reply to: username74

and if the rocks are really big its romans

originally posted by: Aristotelian1
What is your opinion? Why is it that some cultures are so much more advanced than others?

It usually has to do with being situated in a fertile, temperate area where everybody isn't constantly struggling to survive.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

roads today tend to follow trails that animals used long before humans decided to build roads. And wherever animals decided to migrate, humans likely would be found.

So true, people do forget that many of our modern roads have ancient roots.

I travel regularly on roads that were once pioneer trails, and for thousands of years before that were indian trails, and a few still turn into the trail when the road ends.
I believe some of those routes through central asia in to siberia and china are extraordinarily old, like Homo erectus old.

a reply to: punkinworks10

since when were humans a migratory species?

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: punkinworks10

since when were humans a migratory species?

Since the dawn of our genus, or even before.
We populated 6 of the 7 continents didn't we?

originally posted by: punkinworks10

originally posted by: username74
a reply to: punkinworks10

since when were humans a migratory species?

Since the dawn of our genus, or even before.
We populated 6 of the 7 continents didn't we?

I believe there's a difference between perambulation and migration. Migration implies a set pattern driven by climate/daylight changes.

a reply to: Byrd
You mean like climate and environmental changes associated with volcanism?, such as the eruptions in Africa associated with us leaving the continent.
Or climate change associated with the eruption of the toba eruption, that caused humans to move around, or the changes associated with the European super volcano 40kya. Or the or the climate changes associated with the younger dryas that caused Clovis to MIGRATE out of the plains and SE us.
Or the massive migrations of steppe people into western Europe, driven by climate change to the east.
Or the migration of Dene speaking people from northern Canada into the US SW, during the little ice age.
You mean those kinds of changes in climate and environment?

a reply to: punkinworks10

no, migration is seasonal, like birds moving with the seasons
it is a repeated usually annual process
walking somewhere is not migration

It’s a question of who is the real savage the primitive jungle dwellers or the supposed modern and sophisticated people of today’s technological “civilization”

The same civilization that created the atomic bomb so one day we all can go

Puff…

Then who’s the real savage?

a reply to: username74
punkinworks10
better to say, that you might not leave the 2000m2 you were born in all your life but in a larger timescale your tribe might be tearing across the continent

a reply to: Willtell

its all the same or, we are all the same if you prefer

a reply to: username74
Migration is not limited to seasonal movements of animals.

(of a person) move from one area or country to settle in another, especially in search of work.
"rural populations have migrated to urban areas"

the definition of "migrate"



It is a migration when you leave the lands that support you to find a new place to make a new life .The present situation in Europe is the lastest human migration.
Don't forget about the millions of people who left the dust bowl to MIGRATE west to cali and Oregon and Washington, to try a find a new life.

a reply to: punkinworks10

yeah i know, but thats in a modern context. without national boundries and work that definition is out of context if theres no urban theres no rural